Or...the 7,000 responded to God's grace which kept them faithful to Him, and so God spared them from the sword.
Understanding God’s election
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Or...the 7,000 responded to God's grace which kept them faithful to Him, and so God spared them from the sword.
lol i nearly didnt notice it was you friend. i was about to respond like what you cannot be serious. hahaha. wouldnt be surprised if someone did answer this seriously. people just hate the idea that they arent the masters of themselves. its so engrained in humansDeep, deep down Paul really did love God. It merely took a dramatic entrance by God into Paul's life to wake him up to all his hidden, latent, dormant love that Paul really had for God.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I reserved to myself seven thousand men, who did not bow the knee to Baal.
Rom 11:5 In the same way, then, at this present time also, there has become a remnant according to an election of/from grace. [genitive: a gracious election]
Rom 11:6 And if [an election] to/for/in grace (dative: chariti), then is it no more [election] by works (ex ergOn: genitive): otherwise grace (charis) is becoming (ginetai) no more grace (charis). But if it be out of works (ex ergOn: genitive), then is it (estin) no more grace (charis): otherwise work (ergon) is no more work (ergon).
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel did not obtain that which he is seeking for; but the election did obtain it, and the rest were blinded
In the same way, therefore, at this present time, there has been a remnant according to an election by grace
You may be confusing the word imputed with the word imparted.
This is my present understanding of this text from Romans 11.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I reserved to myself seven thousand men, who did not bow the knee to Baal.
Rom 11:5 In the same way, then, at this present time also, there has become a remnant according to an election of/from grace. [genitive: a gracious election]
Rom 11:6 And if [an election] to/for/in grace (dative: chariti), then is it no more [election] out of works (ex ergOn: genitive): otherwise grace (charis) is becoming (ginetai) no more grace (charis). But if it be out of works (ex ergOn: genitive), then is it (estin) no more grace (charis): otherwise work (ergon) is no more work (ergon).
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel did not obtain that which he is seeking for; but the election did obtain it, and the rest were blinded.
Many have that idea that works are not meritorious. Usually this is based on the text Is. 64:6, "All our righteous deeds are as filthy rags, spoken to Israel at a time in their history where they were doing many of the Levitical rituals required by God, but at the same time practising the worship to other gods. This invalidated their Jehovah worshipping practices which they assumed were righteous.
But the idea that no works are meritorious is clearly not scriptural. Romans 2 makes it clear that we will be rewarded for the good we do.
So what does it mean that we are saved by grace through faith without (choris) works. As I pointed out yesterday, choris does not mean without, but apart from. Matt. 14:21 and 15:38 gives the number of the crowds and 5000 and 4000 men besides (choris) women and children. He did not mean 5000 and 4000 men without (choris) women and children, as if there were only men present.
So, when we are told that "can be imputed righteousness beside (choris) works (Rom. 4:6)", this is not negating that works can be righteous and meritorious in God's sight.
And when we are told that we are saved out of grace through faith, not out of works/efforts/erga, this does not mean that works/efforts/erga are not meritorious in God's sight either, but merely that efforts are not required to make the move from being condemned to being forgiven and justified.
Works are still accounted (logizomai) in either the credit (righteous) or debit (unrighteous) columns of our report card, but they are rewarded or recompensed after whichever resurrection is determined for us according to whom or what our faith was in. If our faith was in Christ, we are recompensed after we are raised in the first resurrection, If our faith was in Baal, or mammon, or self etc. we are recompensed after we are raised in the second resurrection.
Going back now to Rom. 11:4-7. Not bowing the knee to Baal (physically) is not a work on account of which God chose the 7000. They did not bow the knee to Baal means they did not transfer their trust from Yahweh to Baal. God reserved the 7000 to Himself because they continued to trust in Him when all others were hedging their bets and dividing their trust between Yahweh and various tribal gods, or away from Yahweh completely. These 7000 may have been sinning in other ways, but their fundamental commitment was to trust Yahweh alone and seek Him for mercy when they stumbled.(v. 5)
The 7000's election by God was based on their continuing faith in Him, not on the works that may have resulted from continuing to trust in Him (v. 4).
v. 5 This is election of/out of grace (genitive) (v. 5), not out of works (ex ergOn, deeds that require effort) (v. 6). Faith requires no effort. Believing can be done by the weakest person or the strongest. Believing is therefore universally available to all as a means of pleasing God with the result that He chooses/elects you to be one of His people.
In the same way, under the new covenant, there is a people chosen/elected by God on the basis of their commitment to trusting Them by trusting Jesus Christ whom They sent. This way of being chosen is as universally feasible as faith in Yahweh was to the Israelites, and was therefore gracious.
Rom 11:6 And if [an election] to/for/in grace (dative: chariti), then is it no more [election] out of works (ex ergOn: genitive): otherwise grace (charis) is becoming (ginetai) no more grace (charis). But if it 9election) be out of works (ex ergOn: genitive), then is it (election) [is] no more grace (charis): otherwise work (ergon) is no more work (ergon).
v. 6a Since election under the New Covenant is in grace (Chariti: Paul switches from the genitive (charitos of v. 5 to the dative here (chariti) in v.6, indicating a positional location in grace here in verse 6, rather than a movement out from grace, as in v. 5). Election out of grace in v. 5, but election in grace in v.6. I think he is moving from an idea of first being elected out of putting faith in Christ, to continuing to be elect by remaining in faith in Christ.
And if, after becoming elect out of putting trust in Christ, we remain elect by remaining in grace (chariti), then we are not dependent on effort to remain elect. We do not remain elect out of our efforts/works (ex ergOn). If we remained elect out of our efforts (ex ergOn) as Christians, then our coming into election out of grace was pointless. That initial grace is undone by the need subsequently to work/effort to remain elect. i.e Grace is becoming no more grace.
But if ongoing election is out of works, then election, after our initial election by faith, is no longer grace. Otherwise, after conversion, work would no longer require any effort. Everything would be easy. But it's not easy to walk the Christian walk. It's easy to become in Christ out of grace through faith, and it is easy to remain in Christ in grace through faith, but it takes effort to walk in grace through faith.
That's another interpretation I am also OK with. But for that interpretation, "the things of the Spirit", from context, would refer to the things the Holy Spirit reveals from His position within the convert after conversion. Before conversion the Holy Spirit works from outside the sinner, to convince Him of sin, righteousness and judgment - the basic gospel truths - which understanding leads the sinner to turn to Christ and put his faith in Him and receive a new spirit and the Holy Spirit.
I see a distinction between having the Holy Spirit, which begins to be the case when a sinner converts through putting faith in Christ, and being indwelt by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit indwelling means He is being allowed to actively participating in the management of the house/body. Having the Holy Spirit means He is present in the house/body.
Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God is dwelling in you (oikei en humin). Now if any man have not (ekei ouk) the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
You can be in the flesh while the Spirit is nevertheless in you: walking in the flesh. Or you are in the Spirit while you are cooperaating with the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to direct and empower you: walking in the Spirit. If you don't have the Spirit, you are not Christ's. If you have the Spirit, then let Him manage your walk.
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PaulThomson said:
Being given may mean to be to be delegated to do something, to be granted to do it, or to be permitted to do it, or to be enabled to do it.
Salvation and reconciliation with God comes by putting one's faith in Jesus, i.e. believing on him. This believing on Him is enabled by hearing the gospel, believing which saves one. If God allows people to hear the gospel and does not prevent them for understanding it, but grants to each to decide whether they will believe it, then God has given, granted or allowed them to believe. If God then allows enemies of the gospel to persecute believers, he has also given, granted, or allowed them to suffer on behalf of Christ. Nothing here shouts or whispers that the faith of a believer is given in the same way as one gives someone a watch or a hat.
Being given may mean to be to be delegated to do something, to be granted to do it, or to be permitted to do it, or to be enabled to do it.
Salvation and reconciliation with God comes by putting one's faith in Jesus, i.e. believing on him. This believing on Him is enabled by hearing the gospel, believing which saves one. If God allows people to hear the gospel and does not prevent them for understanding it, but grants to each to decide whether they will believe it, then God has given, granted or allowed them to believe. If God then allows enemies of the gospel to persecute believers, he has also given, granted, or allowed them to suffer on behalf of Christ. Nothing here shouts or whispers that the faith of a believer is given in the same way as one gives someone a watch or a hat.
Which is what I just said.
This looks to me like the gift of salvation, neatly packaged.
We do many things because we believe God, such as Abraham leaving everything he knew as "home," going only the word of God, taking it as promised that He was able to keep... without regard to his body or Sarah's womb nor thought toward the respective nature thereof as dead and barren. And if anyone exercises their faith in like manner, (s)he is, indeed, of the seed of Abraham!
And we can be doing nothing other than sitting under a fig tree trusting God, and our heavenly bank balance is still gaining in the righteousness column.
This is a bunch of garbage, denying Salvation and Election by Grace alone, apart from works. This post does nothing but exalt man and belittles God.
I don't think that saying "it is easy to remain in Christ in grace through faith, but it takes effort to walk in grace through faith" advocates salvation by works but merely notes an experiential reality, described by the apostle Paul in 2CR 11:23-28.
I should have said:
v. 6a Since election under the New Covenant is in grace (Chariti: Paul switches from the genitive (charitos of v. 5 to the dative here (chariti) in v.6, indicating a positional location in grace here in verse 6, rather than a movement out from grace, as in v. 5). Election out of grace in v. 5, but election in grace in v.6. I think he is moving from an idea of first being elected out of grace through putting faith in Christ, to continuing to be elect by remaining in grace through ongoing faith in Christ.
Act 10:2
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Act 10:4
And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Act 10:22
And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Act 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Are you contending that Cornelius behaved like this, obeying the law written on his heart, all the while hating God?
Your understanding is contaminated up by all your worldly presuppositions. As stated to Studier the other day, Paul is making a commentary on 1Ki 19 and drawing an analogy between two distinct ages of Jews. Since in Paul's day God still reserved a remnant according to his gracious choice, or as the ESV reads, "a remnant chosen by grace" (Rom 11:5), then this must also have been true of the 7,000 who remained faithful to YHWH in Elijah's day. They remained true to God because he graciously chose them to be faithful to him. To say the 7,000 remained faithful because they chose God would destroy Paul's analogy.