No, that is your mistake. It means all spiritual understanding and wisdom comes only from scripture and the Holy Spirit alone.
Understanding God’s election
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No, that is your mistake. It means all spiritual understanding and wisdom comes only from scripture and the Holy Spirit alone.
Sorry, I misunderstood your reply in my prior post. It does mean that through scripture and the Holy Spirit, those saved
are given complete understanding as to the tenets of salvation and those are the only way it can be obtained.
There're very specific references to friendship with God. Search for them. They don't apply as generally as you think they do. Neither of those Scriptures speak of being His friend. This is another example of how you eisegete Scripture.
Sorry, but crystal-clear as you interpret things is frequently crystal-clear error. Many mistakes.
Who said there are such instances? I trust what Jesus says, and I read Him more specifically than you do, and I ask questions of the Text that you don't because you're not trained to.
Thanks for the warnings. Forgive me if I ignore your theological guidance. What you're saying re: John6 is another twisting of anything I've said about the chapter. But such is part of your repetitive diversionary m.o.
John 15:15, Ephesians 4:32 ~ No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not understand what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, because everything I have learned from My Father I have
made known to you. Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.
You keep repeating the same lie ad nauseam because it tickles your own ears. Perhaps you should meditate for several months on Rev 21:8 to see what awaits chronic, practicing liars.
And then in between your meditation session, explain to us how those in the flesh who cannot please God (Rom 8:7-8) do so anyhow with their faith and repentance which they effectuated themselves, since God's grace isn't effectual.
Or if the text in Rom 8 is too difficult for you, then try tackling 2Cor 4:3-6 and tell us if God cures sinners' satanic blindness before or after the repent and believe the gospel.
And there's lot of references pertaining to God's enemies. So, tell me...If all believers aren't God's friend even though He has predestined them in eternity to eternal life, called them, justified them by his grace, has forgiven all their sins, has adopted them into his royal family, loves his saints infinitely and will glorify them at the end of the age, then how would you characterize their relationship with God? And does God have any friends in hell?
But perhaps even more importantly is what Ps 25:4 teaches how one becomes a friend of God, i.e. through the fear of Him! But evidently you don't know that the Fear of the Lord is a promised grace in the New Covenant that God sovereignly and effectually puts into his elect's hearts. Read Jer 32 some day.
Have a nice evening.
Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.
Mr. Studier yesterday told us that there are a whole bunch of requirements for believers who want to "upgrade" their [covenantal] status from mere "servant" to "friend". And while this may have been true under the Old Covenant, it appears God has graciously and sovereignly simplified the process in the eternal, unilateral conditions of the New Covenant. Ps 25:14 reads:
Ps 25:14
14 The friendship of the Lord is for those who fear him,
and he makes known to them his covenant.
ESV
The AMP provides additional nuance:
Ps 25:14
14 The secret [of the sweet, satisfying companionship] of the Lord have they who fear (revere and worship) Him, and He will show them His covenant and reveal to them its [deep, inner] meaning. [John 7:17; 15:15.]
AMP
The idea behind these texts is one of a close, intimate, personal relationship with the Lord that is had by those who fear Him, and due to this [covenant] relationship, God makes known to God-fearers his covenant and its deep, inner, spiritual, eternal meaning. People trust and confide in friends here in the real world, and so it is in the spiritual realm! God confides in or reveals secrets to his friends, i.e. God-fearers!
Then when we study the New Covenant, we learn that the Fear of the Lord is a disposition of heart that God sovereignly and efficaciously puts into the hearts of his NC people!
Jer 32:40-41
40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.
ESV
This is spoken to the apostate, Old Covenant people of God who would soon be carried off to Babylon for their many sins -- sins that caused them to depart or turn away from the Lord. So, God's remedy for their apostasy would take place in the future at some point after they have returned to their Land. Of course, the "everlasting covenant" God will make is the eternal New Covenant spoken of earlier in Jer 31:31ff. Given the unilateral nature of this "everlasting covenant", how can anyone say with a straight face that this gracious, spiritual remedy is not efficacious? Where are the conditions for the recipients of this promise stipulated?
Therefore, since this unilateral promise extends to ALL of God's chosen NC people (given that the NT redefines who are the true sons and daughters of Abraham), then I have to think that God has a lot more "friends" in this NC economy than most Christians realize -- and certainly far more friends than He ever had under the bilateral OC dispensation.
Okay, FWs....turn the above passage on its head and explain how the unilateral promise made therein is not and cannot be efficaciously applied to the elect's hearts.
Ps 25:14
14 The friendship of the Lord is for those who fear him,
and he makes known to them his covenant.
ESV
The AMP provides additional nuance:
Ps 25:14
14 The secret [of the sweet, satisfying companionship] of the Lord have they who fear (revere and worship) Him, and He will show them His covenant and reveal to them its [deep, inner] meaning. [John 7:17; 15:15.]
AMP
The idea behind these texts is one of a close, intimate, personal relationship with the Lord that is had by those who fear Him, and due to this [covenant] relationship, God makes known to God-fearers his covenant and its deep, inner, spiritual, eternal meaning. People trust and confide in friends here in the real world, and so it is in the spiritual realm! God confides in or reveals secrets to his friends, i.e. God-fearers!
Then when we study the New Covenant, we learn that the Fear of the Lord is a disposition of heart that God sovereignly and efficaciously puts into the hearts of his NC people!
Jer 32:40-41
40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.
ESV
This is spoken to the apostate, Old Covenant people of God who would soon be carried off to Babylon for their many sins -- sins that caused them to depart or turn away from the Lord. So, God's remedy for their apostasy would take place in the future at some point after they have returned to their Land. Of course, the "everlasting covenant" God will make is the eternal New Covenant spoken of earlier in Jer 31:31ff. Given the unilateral nature of this "everlasting covenant", how can anyone say with a straight face that this gracious, spiritual remedy is not efficacious? Where are the conditions for the recipients of this promise stipulated?
Therefore, since this unilateral promise extends to ALL of God's chosen NC people (given that the NT redefines who are the true sons and daughters of Abraham), then I have to think that God has a lot more "friends" in this NC economy than most Christians realize -- and certainly far more friends than He ever had under the bilateral OC dispensation.
Okay, FWs....turn the above passage on its head and explain how the unilateral promise made therein is not and cannot be efficaciously applied to the elect's hearts.
Here is another future promise by the Lord: The circumcision of the hearts of his chosen people. And this is, yet, another promise being fulfilled in this New Covenant era (Col 2:11).
Deut 30:1-6
30:1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
NIV
Clearly, the purpose behind this supernatural work in the hearts of God's elect is to get his people to love Him with all their heart and with all their soul. And Jesus taught: "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments" (Jn 14:15). So...how can God's circumcised people, who love him and keep his commandments, not be his friends? And how can the unilateral promise in v. 6 above take affect apart from grace that is efficaciously applied to a person's heart by the Spirit? Do potential believers have to sign a consent form and present it to God to allow him to do such a work in their hearts? They have to give him permission first?
It's also very revealing that the promise was not only made with those contemporary with Moses but with future generations as well! And we know from the NT precisely who the true "descendants" of the ancient Israelites are, i.e. the "children of promise" (Rom 9: 8-9; Gal 3:29; 4:28).
So, FWs, what sayest thou? What clever arguments do you have to deny what the above passage is clearly teaching about the effectual nature of God's grace?
Deut 30:1-6
30:1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
NIV
Clearly, the purpose behind this supernatural work in the hearts of God's elect is to get his people to love Him with all their heart and with all their soul. And Jesus taught: "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments" (Jn 14:15). So...how can God's circumcised people, who love him and keep his commandments, not be his friends? And how can the unilateral promise in v. 6 above take affect apart from grace that is efficaciously applied to a person's heart by the Spirit? Do potential believers have to sign a consent form and present it to God to allow him to do such a work in their hearts? They have to give him permission first?
It's also very revealing that the promise was not only made with those contemporary with Moses but with future generations as well! And we know from the NT precisely who the true "descendants" of the ancient Israelites are, i.e. the "children of promise" (Rom 9: 8-9; Gal 3:29; 4:28).
So, FWs, what sayest thou? What clever arguments do you have to deny what the above passage is clearly teaching about the effectual nature of God's grace?
None of the verses you've posted speak of being God's friend.
Here's the latest: 4 Show me Your ways, O LORD; Teach me Your paths. (Ps. 25:4 NKJ)
Once again, do a simple search even on the English word "friend". Do some real work in the Text instead of making things up.
Earlier you provided a list of translations you suggested you look at. Here are some translations of Ps25:14 (apparently you earlier made the mistake of referencing Ps25:4). A casual look at translations shows you cherry-picked one you think makes your case and reveals in variations the word being translated should be looked at in the original languages. BTW, the AMP is not a very good source for literal meanings:
DBY Psalm 25:14 The secret of Jehovah is with them that fear him, that he may make known his covenant to them.
LXA Psalm 25:14 The Lord is the strength of them that fear him; and his covenant is to manifest truth to them.
NKJ Psalm 25:14 The secret of the LORD is with those who fear Him, And He will show them His covenant.
NET Psalm 25:14 The LORD's loyal followers receive his guidance, and he reveals his covenantal demands to them.
ESV Psalm 25:14 The friendship of the LORD is for those who fear him, and he makes known to them his covenant.
NAS Psalm 25:14 The secret of the LORD is for those who fear Him, And He will make them know His covenant.
KJG Psalm 25:14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
KJV Psalm 25:14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
NIV Psalm 25:14 The LORD confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.
YLT Psalm 25:14 The secret of Jehovah is for those fearing Him, And His covenant -- to cause them to know.
It's relatively easy to see when translators are struggling with a word(s) in Scripture. When we see such variations, we should do some homework and see what they're dealing with.
Please do some real work in the Text before taking pot-shots at others and presenting yourself as an instructor. If you'd like some help translating this verse or searching how the OC and NC speak of friendship with God, please ask others to assist.
Maybe they can be. Maybe some of them can. Maybe they are. Maybe... But you can't make the case by theorizing. Make the connections with Scripture. You're on a decent track but not referencing Scripture that actually states friendship with God. Keep working...
Then you want to sneak back in "efficacious" grace. Did you ever clarify that efficacious = effectual = irresistible = part of TULIP? Or are you just playing with words to try to make it sound like others don't think God's Grace accomplishes anything?
The tangled web we weave...
I already acknowledged the variations the other day, which is precisely why I quoted the AMP, as well as the ESV in my 9668. (I quoted both of these translations because they capture the sense of the passage quite well.) And I drew a parallel between how people in the real world share secrets with or confide in friends, and this is what the Lord does as well with his friends. Didn't you tell me the other day to study what it means to be "friends" with the Lord? Well...I did. And now you complain about the text I chose!? There just ain't no pleasing you, is there?
And I studied it through the lens of the New Covenant, which apparently has now irritated you since the fear of the Lord is a vitally important component in having a close, personal, intimate, covenant relationship with God. Given all the numerous benefits a God-fearing believer receives from have this godly disposition in his heart, which in turn results in godly, righteous behavior, are you now going to argue that such believers are not God's friends, or that God is not their friend? Were Abraham and Moses God-fearing believers? In fact, didn't God "confide" in his friend Abraham what He was about to do in Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 18:16-17)?And have you never considered this proverb:
Prov 3:32
32 for the LORD detests a perverse man
but takes the upright into his confidence?
NIV
(I know, I know...you detest the NIV too, don't you?)
But hey...you gotta give me some credit here; I did a good job in cherry pickin' the above text.... as well as what follows. Or what about this NT passage:
Matt 13:11
11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
NIV
And who would have ever thunk in a gazillion years that Christ would have given to only his FRIENDS the "knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom..."?
John 15:15
15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
NIV
Anything else you need to know about friendship with God?
By the way...just for giggles I consulted two popular paraphrases I have to see how they render Ps 25:14. Here they are:
Ps 25:14
14 Friendship with God is reserved for those who reverence him. With them alone he shares the secrets of his promises.
TLB
And,
Ps 25:14
14 Friendship with the LORD is reserved for those who fear him.
With them he shares the secrets of his covenant.
NLT
We can see that these two translations align nicely and smoothly with the AMP and the ESV. What I mean by "smoothly" is that literal translations can often make any given passage difficult to understand because the literal is so wooden and rigid, which results in obscuring the meaning. This is precisely why I also consult Dynamic Equivalency and Paraphrases, which can often help by capturing the sense of a difficult passage. And, yes, sometimes, all this works in reverse. Sometimes a very literal translation can shed more light on a passage than any of its counterpart translations. There's no hard 'n' fast rule. The only rule I follow meticulously is to cross-check other translations for their renderings.
Also, there is NOTHING in any of these translations that I have quoted for this Psalm that present any kind of theological problem or contradictions with other passages! Quite to the contrary, which we can see from my previous post!
P.S. And I haven't exhausted my arguments either for how this Psalm reads in the translations I've posted. But I always like saving the best for last.
Ps 25:14
14 Friendship with God is reserved for those who reverence him. With them alone he shares the secrets of his promises.
TLB
And,
Ps 25:14
14 Friendship with the LORD is reserved for those who fear him.
With them he shares the secrets of his covenant.
NLT
We can see that these two translations align nicely and smoothly with the AMP and the ESV. What I mean by "smoothly" is that literal translations can often make any given passage difficult to understand because the literal is so wooden and rigid, which results in obscuring the meaning. This is precisely why I also consult Dynamic Equivalency and Paraphrases, which can often help by capturing the sense of a difficult passage. And, yes, sometimes, all this works in reverse. Sometimes a very literal translation can shed more light on a passage than any of its counterpart translations. There's no hard 'n' fast rule. The only rule I follow meticulously is to cross-check other translations for their renderings.
Also, there is NOTHING in any of these translations that I have quoted for this Psalm that present any kind of theological problem or contradictions with other passages! Quite to the contrary, which we can see from my previous post!
P.S. And I haven't exhausted my arguments either for how this Psalm reads in the translations I've posted. But I always like saving the best for last.
You acknowledged variations by posting 2 translations? Maybe they capture and maybe they don't. But there are many reasons not to trust your conclusions so I'm asking you for more than you give. You have yet to supply a verse that contains a word that can properly be translated as "friend" or cognates.
Once again, your parallels and explanations are not trustworthy as a general rule. Too many mistakes. The Word itself pleases me, and I know He's correct. I told you that you were on a decent track. You still didn't show one verse where the Lord actually speaks of friends.
You may have used a NC lens but not NC Scripture. I very simply know Jesus Christ Himself spoke of friends, so does the OC, yet you have yet to identify one verse where He does so. Even in Gen18:16-17 there is no mention of friend, and this is indicative of how you assume connections based on some analogy you've made up apart from actually connecting the concepts with Scripture and then you carry it into Scriptures with no Scriptural proof.
Finally!!!! And I'm not referring to the other 2 verses just yet.
12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. 14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 "These things I command you, that you love one another. (Jn. 15:12-17 NKJ)
It's really not that difficult. Find the Scripture that legitimately uses the word.
Bookended by His command to love one another, Christ Jesus having made known to them all things He'd heard from His Father, He calls them friends and stipulates that His friends do whatever He commands. When He says "IF you do..." the "IF" here is no guaranty that they will obey Him - so the friendship looks to be conditional - and based upon the bookended commands - Jesus' Christ's Friends knowledgeably obey Him and love fellow believers.
Build from here and make legitimate connections. We get way too loose with His Word.
Honestly, it's difficult for me at least to see much evidence of friends of His on these forums. I'm not excluding myself.
You won't trust me when I say this, but I did this study long ago and carry what I learned when I study other topics. Look at the Greek of John15:14-15 translated as "friends". It's an easy one to recognize and it's a good one to track through Scripture.
Good for you that you like such translations. For some of us we don't rely on such interpretations at all. In the Hebrew I can see how they come up with such paraphrases, but they can be very misleading for those of us who work in the original languages. Arguing from a paraphrase is fraught with problems and if I were to challenge you to show me in the language how the paraphrase is even possible, I doubt you could do so.
Once again, it took you several posts and customary attacks on the ability of others to come up with one verse that actually uses a word to be translated as "friend". All that you provided was theoretical analogy and paraphrased translation that could be good or bad.
IF you consistently utilize and rely on what you say you do, it would be nice to see you make your case by referencing them more customarily.
Yeah, you're right. I wouldn't trust you. You no doubt spent most of your study time trying to figure out how many angels can dance on top of a pinhead.
And, yes, the true disciples of Christ will obey him, according to Jer 32:40-41, even though perfect obedience will never be attained in this life -- but nonetheless there will be real, substantial and essentially true obedience. And even the prophecy in Deut 30:1-6 assures obedience since spiritual circumcision guarantees a loving heart for God; for we know what Jesus said about those who love him.
And if you don't consider yourself a friend of God and his Son, then one must wonder if you're still not an enemy of God.
Neither the ESV or the AMP are considered paraphrases, which is what I used originally.
Also, I didn't say that I "like such translations" per se, but since I'm not an ancient bible languages scholar I find it necessary to use multiple translations (including literal translations) in order to get to the sense of any given passage. You have a better idea? Or is everyone called to be an expert (like you and PT like to wax you are) in the original languages? What about all the other teams of various language experts and the work they put into their bible translations? They're chopped liver compared to you or a PT? Only you guys have a mortal lock on the original languages?
Retreat back to the m.o. When can't deal with what Scripture actually says, retreat to m.o.
The fact is that Jesus was very precise about true friendship with Him and that precision places qualifications on all of us, you included, even though you shake it off with the common and immature escape hatch - oh, we can't be perfect. Then we have to go through the Biblical concept of perfection/completion and maturity to show it's really not the escape that people use for self-comfort and excuse for bad behavior. And, no, I'm not speaking of sinless perfection.
If and when you get the time or additional interest, see how limited the concept of friendship in the OC is. It helps provide some insight that this friendship is not just bantered around as if it's a common thing. IMO the way Jesus bookends the concept should make all of us more cautious of how we treat one another.
