Understanding God’s election

[jacko]

Not different levels; different manifestations.

What does that mean? I don’t understand …

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …

Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).
Having a saving faith is against their very nature!
2 - All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan,
and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18).
Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them,
which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell.
If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!
Similarly, the “anyones” who believe in Jesus in verses such as John 3:16
are the ones whom God has given saving faith!

Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …
“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)
God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!
God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.
“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …
… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.
Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).

The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.

I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …

Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel

If acted on. man can make the decision to chose to recieve Christ. In fact. Their eternity depends on it.

Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes

He choses based on his will. Not based on random selection. God does not chose some for heaven, and some for hell.. I can not agree with double predestination or as many call it fatalism

The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others

Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

This is unbiblical. While yes they deserve justice. So do we.

God in his infinate wisdom and love came to die for the whole world. So that the world through him may (they might, they have the chance0 to be saved.

again, double predestination is flawed.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.

Those who freely recieve his gift are guaranteed salvation, yes, because it was not somethign they could earn to begin with. It is based on Gods promise and his work not our own.

but the thought that we persevere to the end is a flaw. We can not persevere to earn salvation, in this lifetime.

 

[Cameron143]

Right. And hyper-Calvinism is junk theology fit for the rubbish heap.
R.C. Sproul Jr. is CLEARLY quoted as saying the GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL, and GOD CREATED EVIL. An outrageous heresy.

However the Holy Ghost says:
Ask. Seek. Knock. Come. Take.
Those are they that obtain the truth of God via His Holy Spirit. Those who CHOOSE to refuse.....don't.

Luk 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Deu 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Mat 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

====================================================================================
This is one of the most pertinent passages in all the OT on this topic. Very few nowadays understand it, but it hold true nevertheless.

2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7
Therefore said he, Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.

=====================================================================================================

[Deu 30:10 KJV]
If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

[Deu 30:11 KJV]
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off.

[Deu 30:12 KJV]
It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

[Deu 30:13 KJV]
Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

[Deu 30:14 KJV]
But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

[Deu 30:15 KJV]
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

[Deu 30:16 KJV]
In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

[Deu 30:10 KJV]
If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

[Deu 30:11 KJV]
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off.

[Deu 30:12 KJV]
It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

[Deu 30:13 KJV]
Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

[Deu 30:14 KJV]
But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

[Deu 30:15 KJV]
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

[Deu 30:16 KJV]
In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

[Deu 30:19 KJV]
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

And Roger showed you a host of verses that seemed to suggest just the opposite. Now, show me how to reconcile the 2 seemingly disparate positions.

 

[Cameron143]

What does that mean? I don’t understand …

You are uniquely made and have a unique set of circumstances. So God gives you grace that helps you. Others have been made differently and have different circumstances. They require different manifestations of grace for their circumstances. But it's all of grace.

 

[jacko]

You are uniquely made and have a unique set of circumstances. So God gives you grace that helps you. Others have been made differently and have different circumstances. They require different manifestations of grace for their circumstances. But it's all of grace.

Here’s what I kind of alluding to, say your call to be a pastor, Billy Graham, for example and God surely anointed you and blessed you and you were able to lead millions.

Pastor John Doe on the other hand has the same calling however he is only able to lead a church of 30 people in Wyoming. They both love the Lord with all their heart.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yet God has called us all to choose to believe God in risen Son or not
Any scriptures on that you might have, love the call you are in and do, thank you

Amen,

that is a long list. And I agree with them, But to say God is not capable of taking that natural man, and understand the basic gospel so that person can chose to say Yes God I trust you I want that. Or no thank You God. I love my sin, thanks but no thinks, is to limit God

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

And I'd bet every Calvinist believes they have been chosen by God, and their kids, spouse, etc...

Talk about pumping your chest. Thanking God your not like the :Sinner “unlelect”

 

[cv5]

Do you believe God has different levels of unmerited favor for different individuals?

Certainly did not apply to Rahab and the Hivite Gibeonites.
Both were supposedly "doomed" Canaanites. You cannot get less favorable than that.

However, these two BELIEVED the obvious (they were FULLY INFORMED BTW !)
REPENTED, and entered into the covenant of life and peace.

The kings of the Amorites, the rest of the Canaanites, and the ENTIRE CITY OF JERICHO
were UNDOUBTEDLY likewise FULLY INFORMED. But.....they DECIDED TO FIGHT GOD.
Essentially they all COMMITTED SUICIDE rather than repent and believe the patently obvious:
That the Nation of Israel are God's elect priests and thru them comes God's plan of salvation.
Which of course proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the conquest of Canaan is a type of the tribulation and SC.

Jos 2:9
And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you

Jos 2:10
For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

Jos 2:11
And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

Jos 2:12
Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my father's house, and give me a true token: (THE COVENANT OF SALVATION IN JESUS CHRIST)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God can ordain prayer? As a means to bring His will to pass?

But why? if it is already set in stone.\

why pray for your sister if nothing you say or do will cause he to believe in Christ, because God rejected her (did not chose her)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The election scripture

Whom god Foreknew he did predestine.

what did God forknow that cause him to predestine

 

[cv5]

And Roger showed you a host of verses that seemed to suggest just the opposite. Now, show me how to reconcile the 2 seemingly disparate positions.

Why commit to an disjunctive syllogism aka false exclusionary disjunct?
When there is OBVIOUSLY no disparity. Zero.

Frankly I find it incredible that anyone in their right mind would think so.
People are just pretty dumb. Thats the problem.

 

[Cameron143]

Here’s what I kind of alluding to, say your call to be a pastor, Billy Graham, for example and God surely anointed you and blessed you and you were able to lead millions.

Pastor John Doe on the other hand has the same calling however he is only able to lead a church of 30 people in Wyoming. They both love the Lord with all their heart.

I see. If you read 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, you will find there are diversities of gifts, diversities of administration in the gifts, and diversities of operations. What you are describing seems to be a diversity of operation.

 

[cv5]

And Roger showed you a host of verses that seemed to suggest just the opposite. Now, show me how to reconcile the 2 seemingly disparate positions.

They knew. They all knew. Who on planet earth today DOES NOT KNOW??????
Not many. And the "guy on the island" and the tribes in the Amazon will be judged fairly and justly don't you worry about it.

THAT.....is the only confession anyone ever needs. WE HEARD. WE BELIEVE. SIMPLE BELIEF!

Jos 2:11
And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

 

[Cameron143]

But why? if it is already set in stone.\

why pray for your sister if nothing you say or do will cause he to believe in Christ, because God rejected her (did not chose her)

First, you don't know what God has planned. Second, the desire to pray may well have been placed in your heart by God.

Paul planted, Apollos watered. God gave the increase. We are workmen together with God.

 

[Cameron143]

They knew. They all knew. Who on planet earth today DOES NOT KNOW??????
Not many. And the "guy on the island" and the tribes in the Amazon will be judged fairly and justly don't you worry about it.

THAT.....is the only confession anyone ever needs. WE HEARD. WE BELIEVE. SIMPLE BELIEF!

Jos 2:11
And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

They know of the existence of God. They do not know God. To know God requires revelation from the Father or Son...Matthew 11:27, Matthew 16:17.

Why would this be necessary?

 

[rogerg]

And there’s different levels of grace given to individuals right?

Regarding salvation, just one. However, there seems to be other types of grace given for the
carrying out of tasks of administrative task for the work of the ministry, but that coming only after, and as a result of, salvation.

 

[rogerg]

And there’s different levels of grace given to individuals right?

@Cameron143 explained it better than I.

 

[John146]

What do you think about Lydia's experience as commented on in the OP?
She needed God to open her heart to the truth of God's Gospel, etc.

Totally believe in the moving of the Spirit and the word of God to open eyes, but ultimately, it's up to man to choose to believe. Pre-programmed belief is not belief.

 

[John146]

The election scripture

Whom god Foreknew he did predestine.

what did God forknow that cause him to predestine

Correct, God must first know a man in order predestinate that man for the future adoption. How does God know a man? When that man trusts his Son.

 

[cv5]

They know of the existence of God. They do not know God.

So tell us how that works with Rahab, the Gibeonites, Ruth, the widow of Zarephath, Naaman.....and innumerable others in the OT.

What I see regarding these neo-hyper-Calvinists is ARROGANCE.
Also this bizarre notion that the Church is SUPERIOR.
And they repeat the same sin of Israel: that they are CHOSENITES......and NOBODY ELSE IS.

I could not think of a more damaging and dangerous realm of ideation.