Two Natures???

[Pilgrimshope]

Impossible, however, if God didn't plant the seed. A woman cannot conceive on her own.

He spoke it . You have no idea man

why did the light begin to shine ?

“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt. And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

…and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:22-23, 25‬ ‭

thats why but you don’t understand

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Who prepared the body of Jesus? Mary or God?

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Your arguments are becoming more silly

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:50‬ ‭

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The word "begotten" is so important. Jesus is God's only begotten Son. That means his physical came from God by God's seed.

First mention...
Genesis 5:4 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

“The word "begotten" is so important. Jesus is God's only begotten Son. That means his physical came from God by God's seed.”

Do you think that god had sex with Mary ? Or placed his physical seed in her ?

 

[posthuman]

I’ve never said Jesus had joesphs dna or that he had a biological father …. Never argued that Jesus was born of a virgin …..making points to me for points that I’ve never tried to make

“@i don't believe His body ever decayed at all, “

“yeah I don’t either “

“that decay in flesh is a result of sin, not part of the original creation”

are you saying you do believe this part or don’t ? That’s what I believe .

Jesus didn’t sin that’s why his flesh didn’t decay . And why he didn’t stay dead and decay and return to dust

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the difference in Jesus flesh and ours that’s my belief of why he “ didn’t decay “ we do he didn’t .

“for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


flesh decays because we die , we die because sin (the wages of sin is death )
Jesus wasn’t condemned by this like the rest of us are because he didn’t sin we did that’s the difference in his flesh and ours they were the same flesh and blood tbat he was born into from Mary’s physical body because god declared it

The virgin birth ? How does asking why Jesus was born of a virgin mean that his flesh and blood wasn’t made of Mary’s flesh and blood ? Again I have never made an argument tbat Josephs dna is n jesus there’s nothing in the Bible to make that claim. He had no biological father .

Mary was a human woman a virgin chosen by god to give birth to his son , who came in the flesh and blood of mankind to redeem us .



What’s the question about him being born of a virgin have to do with anything ? His flesh and blood still came from his physical mother … all of our bodies do .

I’ve never claimed Jesus had an earthly biological father lol I’ve always said his flesh and blood was made of Mary’s like all human babies are made of thier mothers body that they are born from

Of course Jesus was born of a virgin and of course he was made of flesh and blood and of course that’s where his physical body came from …..

“but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Why was he born of a virgin ?

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14-15‬ ‭

“And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:28, 30-33, 35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

At what point are we supposed to say “ Jesus flesh and blood didn’t physically come from his mother? And then make that argument lol to support johns claim that blood is corrupt not flesh

Just want to point out all this long discussion about Jesus virgin birth is an attempt to get past this verse and claim flesh rises but not with blood and enters the kingdom but not blood though and definately not a spiritual body

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?…. it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, ( dies )

and there is a spiritual body.”( is raised )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m gonna stick with the idea that Jesus was made from Mary’s flesh and blood like all humans are . It doesn’t bother me because I don’t have the opinion we’re born wrong and can’t choose good

the point being there is a very good reason for the virgin birth - -

that His blood is like no one else's, such that it is an acceptable sprinkling on the heavenly altar

 

[Mem]

the point being there is a very good reason for the virgin birth - -

that His blood is like no one else's, such that it is an acceptable sprinkling on the heavenly altar

@John146 brought up Jesus presenting himself saying, "a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have," and with that in mind, I consider that possibility of whether Jesus' 'flesh and blood' died and that He was raised 'flesh and bone.'

 

[Pilgrimshope]

the point being there is a very good reason for the virgin birth - -

that His blood is like no one else's, such that it is an acceptable sprinkling on the heavenly altar

“there is a very good reason for the virgin birth “

Yes brother see if you notice a consistent cause of what happens

“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“that His blood is like no one else's, such that it is an acceptable sprinkling on the heavenly altar”

absolutely it was different not different from birth as if it didint come from his biological Mother ms flesh and blood . That’s where you’ve lost me , but his blood was different because of his sinless perfect life , he didn’t sin so he didn’t defile his blood which is the life of the flesh

“For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭17:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Where’s the scripture telling us our blood is the problem ? I’ve shown and can show more about how the flesh is our problem ……. and that Jesus took part of our flesh and blood in order to redeem us

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God became one of us fully a man . Put himself in the same predicament that we’re in . The difference is Adam was tempted by the devil and he sinned ….Jesus was tempted by the devil and he didn’t sin . Jesus earned every word of praise the heavens give to him daily forever

We know Jesus is god bit …..look at the days of his flesh after he was born of his mothers womb and you’ll see his humanity

“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Mem]

@John146 brought up Jesus presenting himself saying, "a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have," and with that in mind, I consider that possibility of whether Jesus' 'flesh and blood' died and that He was raised 'flesh and bone.'

...but I can't say that His blood had died (and so unsure of the status of his flesh also), as I think of the claim that the ark of the covenant was found with living blood on it

 

[Pilgrimshope]

@John146 brought up Jesus presenting himself saying, "a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have," and with that in mind, I consider that possibility of whether Jesus' 'flesh and blood' died and that He was raised 'flesh and bone.'

…. Would the answer prove paul wrong about the resurrection and the bodies we will inherit though ?

“Lets take this as fact Jesus rose up flesh and bone “

Does that make this wrong ?

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? …and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

…. it is sown a natural body;

it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body,

and there is a spiritual body.

….And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam ( jesus ) was made a quickening spirit.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, ( natural bodies )

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.( spiritual bodies )


Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 37, 44-45, 49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬


how does jesus manner of resurrection who never sinned change what the apostles taught about our resurrection who have sinned ?

clearly pauls teaching about the resurrection we’re waiting for and clearly. He tells us the body youhave now is natural and the body that will rise is spiritual .

should we reject Paul’s teaching about what body we’ll have at the resurrection ?

 

[John146]

What’s the point in asking then ignoring and asking again ?

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

tell Me what your point is ? How does it mean Jesus wasn’t born of Mary’s womb ? Or his flesh didn’t come from his mother like all flesh does ?

Why not just have Joseph be the father? Why the virgin birth?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Why not just have Joseph be the father? Why the virgin birth?

I’m not gonna keep going in the circle

 

[John146]

Your arguments are becoming more silly

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:50‬ ‭

Yep, flesh and blood cannot inherit the KOG. Which part is corrupt? In his resurrection, Jesus had flesh and bones, no blood. In our resurrection, we will have flesh and bones, no blood. Before the fall, Adam had flesh and bones, no blood. Where did Adam get his blood? Through the forbidden fruit, the grape. The grape is a type of blood throughout scripture.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

[John146]

…. Would the answer prove paul wrong about the resurrection and the bodies we will inherit though ?

“Lets take this as fact Jesus rose up flesh and bone “

Does that make this wrong ?

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? …and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

…. it is sown a natural body;

it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body,

and there is a spiritual body.

….And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam ( jesus ) was made a quickening spirit.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, ( natural bodies )

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.( spiritual bodies )


Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 37, 44-45, 49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬


how does jesus manner of resurrection who never sinned change what the apostles taught about our resurrection who have sinned ?

clearly pauls teaching about the resurrection we’re waiting for and clearly. He tells us the body youhave now is natural and the body that will rise is spiritual .

should we reject Paul’s teaching about what body we’ll have at the resurrection ?

In the resurrection, Jesus had a spiritual body made of flesh and bones, no blood. Note, not a spirit body, but a spiritual body. Big difference.

1 Corinthians 15:
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (Adam), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Jesus).

After the fall, man became mortal because of blood. Blood is what's corrupted man's body, aka, bleed to death.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In the resurrection, Jesus had a spiritual body made of flesh and bones, no blood. Note, not a spirit body, but a spiritual body. Big difference.

1 Corinthians 15:
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (Adam), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Jesus).

After the fall, man became mortal because of blood. Blood is what's corrupted man's body, aka, bleed to death.

“Blood is what's corrupted man's body, “

“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭17:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


….But Ok I guess in bizarre opposite world

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In the resurrection, Jesus had a spiritual body made of flesh and bones, no blood. Note, not a spirit body, but a spiritual body. Big difference.

1 Corinthians 15:
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (Adam), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Jesus).

After the fall, man became mortal because of blood. Blood is what's corrupted man's body, aka, bleed to death.

“God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:24, 26-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[John146]

“God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:24, 26-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

All nations came from fallen Adam...

 

[Mem]

…. Would the answer prove paul wrong about the resurrection and the bodies we will inherit though ?

“Lets take this as fact Jesus rose up flesh and bone “

Does that make this wrong ?

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? …and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

…. it is sown a natural body;

it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body,

and there is a spiritual body.

….And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam ( jesus ) was made a quickening spirit.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, ( natural bodies )

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.( spiritual bodies )


Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 37, 44-45, 49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬


how does jesus manner of resurrection who never sinned change what the apostles taught about our resurrection who have sinned ?

clearly pauls teaching about the resurrection we’re waiting for and clearly. He tells us the body youhave now is natural and the body that will rise is spiritual .

should we reject Paul’s teaching about what body we’ll have at the resurrection ?

I'm not arguing that there's no such thing as a spiritual body. I'd just like to know what, exactly, is the make up of a 'spiritual body.'
Note that in the phrase "spiritual body," spiritual is a modifier of 'body,' so its not necessarily saying that a person will be a 'spirit.'

 

[tourist]

...but I can't say that His blood had died (and so unsure of the status of his flesh also), as I think of the claim that the ark of the covenant was found with living blood on it

I don't believe that the blood of Jesus died because there was no decay in his body having been in the tomb for 3 days.

 

[tourist]

All nations came from fallen Adam...

This is true.

 

[Mem]

I don't believe that the blood of Jesus died because there was no decay in his body having been in the tomb for 3 days.

I tend toward agreeing with this, especially in considering that "The first man Adam became a living being (soul), the last Adam a life-giving spirit," This is referenced in the context of the 1Cor15's section heading, "The Resurrection Body," and if I understand correctly, "the last Adam (*became) a life-giving spirit" is generally regarded as speaking of the resurrected Jesus as this 'life-giving spirit.' However, I'm not convinced that is the correct way of view Jesus' "becoming." That is, can we be certain Jesus did not 'become a life-giving spirit at His initial Advent rather than at His resurrection? Seeing that the parallel with Adam, who was "formed from the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven (1 Cor 2:47)" is speaking of Adam's 'birth.'

 

[posthuman]

@John146 brought up Jesus presenting himself saying, "a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have," and with that in mind, I consider that possibility of whether Jesus' 'flesh and blood' died and that He was raised 'flesh and bone.'

i'm not completely sure i agree but it's a strong position. the Yom Kippur sacrifice is completely drained of blood, is it not?