Trinity haters on CC

[CS1]

No, I will not leave the title "evangelical" at the door. It simply means that I adhere to the core teachings of the faith.

I am not Roman Catholic, and I am not Eastern Orthodox.

By the way, "evangelion" simply means "gospel" and implies that those who are evangelical believe in justification by faith alone, and honor Scripture as authoritative and inspired.

An evangelical is someone who holds those points.

Apparently if one takes a solid stance on core Christian doctrine, they are attacked, but if they are anti-Trinitarian, or deny the deity of Christ, they are considered to be plausible.

FYi most in here are evangelicals AND fundamentalist too. And the term evangelical being in agreement with the Christian gospel the four of them. Yet a title does not excuse ones prideful comments. Most in here hold to Verbal plenary expression. The Word of God is fully authoritative and without error. FYI that is Bible 101 most here are well versed in this understanding. No one here has attacked you, again you build a strawman. I see many who agree with you. Just get off your high horse sir,

Thank you,

 

[jaybird88]

Jesus has many crowns the word of God says
HE is :

the Son of the Most High
Son of God
King of kings
Lord of lords
Son of Man
second Adam
Christ
Messiah
Alpha and Omega

i agree with most all of them. i am not trying to teach anyone Jesus is NOT the Most High. my issue is IMO the bible does not say in simple words "Jesus is the Most High" anywhere. so i dont get why people get accused of all the nasty things because they do not believe something the bible does not say.

 

[CS1]

Have you read a book on church history? How about Luther?

Are you aware of the language he used to confront those who were heretical? Some of his language was actually pretty vulgar.

I don't do that, but I certainly don't hold back from addressing those who deny core Christian doctrine. If you don't answer a fool, he thinks he's right.

Prov 26:4-5
Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
or you yourself will be just like him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
or he will be wise in his own eyes.

One reason weird beliefs have proliferated within the Church is due to the refusal to answer such individuals.

Most don't even know enough Scripture or doctrine to answer them anyways so I guess those who do respond to them expose their own lack of diligent study, and they resent it.

we have not suggested you are a fool, why are you suggesting those here are? I am not Lutheran, nor do I hold him as an authority over the word of God aka the written word of God. That being said I agree with his point on scripture alone in light of other scriptures

 

[Magenta]

where does it say Jesus is the Most High?

The WORD was God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

It is right there in front of your face, but your eyes do not see it.

John chapter 8, Jesus is explaining to His nay-sayers Who He is, they are looking for a way to kill Him because He equates Himself with God... He tells them they will die in their sins "... if you do not believe that I am he." It is no trivial matter.

 

[CS1]

i agree with most all of them. i am not trying to teach anyone Jesus is NOT the Most High. my issue is IMO the bible does not say in simple words "Jesus is the Most High" anywhere. so i don't get why people get accused of all the nasty things because they do not believe something the bible does not say.

Ok I am not sure that is true, however, the title that was said to HIM HE did not deny it. In addition, many words in the Greek and Hebrew translate as most High el·yōn = name of God hü'-psē-stos highest, most high

 

[jaybird88]

The WORD was God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

It is right there in front of your face, but your eyes do not see it.

John chapter 8, Jesus is explaining to His nay-sayers Who He is, they are looking for a way to kill Him because He equates Himself with God... He tells them they will die in their sins "... if you do not believe that I am he." It is no trivial matter.

why does it not say Jesus is the Most High?

 

[CherieR]

Ok I am not sure that is true, however, the title that was said to HIM HE did not deny it. In addition, many words in the Greek and Hebrew translate as most High el·yōn = name of God hü'-psē-stos highest, most high

Out of curiousity, which verses are you referring to with the title that was said to him he did not deny?

 

[jaybird88]

Ok I am not sure that is true, however, the title that was said to HIM HE did not deny it. In addition, many words in the Greek and Hebrew translate as most High el·yōn = name of God hü'-psē-stos highest, most high

im not sure it says it but im not going to push it any further. i know people get banned for asking these questions so im going to politely back out.

 

[CS1]

Out of curiosity, which verses are you referring to with the title that was said to him he did not deny?

the man who demon possessed the demon cried " what will you have to do with us Jesus son of the Most High In one Gospel account Jesus told them to shut up for HIS time was not yet.

 

[CS1]

im not sure it says it but im not going to push it any further. i know people get banned for asking these questions so im going to politely back out.

come on jaybird88 you have been here for long time I have never banned anyone for not agreeing with me or a mod LOL. I will provide the scripture I speaking about Mrk 5:6-8 The demon called him son of the most high and worshiped HIM

 

[jaybird88]

come on jaybird88 you have been here for long time I have never banned anyone for not agreeing with me or a mod LOL. I will provide the scripture I speaking about Mrk 5:6-8 The demon called him son of the most high and worshiped HIM

i dont think you would ban anyone without a good reason, and yes i have been here a while and seen some good people banned for some very trivial things when discussing deity of Jesus and trinity. there have also been people baited into saying bannable things just to get them banned. there have also been non trins that have acted very inappropriately, making bold offensive proclamations and deserved what they got.
i made a post a while back requesting a contro section so we could discuss these things outside the BDF but it got little attention.

 

[garee]

why does it not say Jesus is the Most High?

Not directly in respect to the Son of man seen .God is not a man as us. The Son of man Jesus refused to stand in the high place not seen as a abomination of desecration..

We that are yoked with Christ do not wrestles against flesh and blood and neither could it support. But do against unseen spirits in high places .The word good used throughout the Bible is used as the seal of God approval. . his invisible fingerprint.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[CS1]

come on jaybird88 you have been here for long time I have never banned anyone for not agreeing with me or a mod LOL. I will provide the scripture I speaking about Mrk 5:6-8 The demon called him son of the most high and worshiped HIM

I will say it,, I could be wrong

 

[Noose]

Someone asked about Jesus asking, just before He died on the cross, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

I cannot find that post now and do not know if anyone answered...

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22. Psalm 22 is a prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion.

Nope.

Jesus was not quoting David rather David prophesied (pre-quoted Jesus). The words were meaningful in the context of Jesus on the cross and not David in his palace.
If you want to know how Jesus felt, you can go to that Psalm. The Psalm doesn't portray what David felt.

 

[PennEd]

The baptism scenario is written for your understanding and not for your confusion.

Q. When Jesus stood in river Jordan getting baptized, was He one person and one God by Himself or did He become one God only when the Father spoke and the Holy spirit descended?

I am not confused.

Clearly all 3 members of the 1 God were Present AND separate at Jesus' Baptism. No need for your private interpretations.

Jesus is fully God.

YHWH the Father is fully God.

The Holy Spirit is fully God.

There are many unanswerable questions surrounding this issue. Since you acknowledge Jesus is God, how can He not know the day or the hour, at least before His resurrection? Those unanswerable questions don't change that there is ONE God, existing in 3 persons. He IS God after all. Is that an unachievable thing for Him to do?

Jesus currently is at the Right Hand of His Father:

Acts 7:55–56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 8:1; Hebrews 10:12; Hebrews 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22; Revelation 3:21; Matthew 22:44; Acts 2:33

55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing pat the right hand of God.”
34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Put On the New Self
3 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Jesus, High Priest of a Better Covenant
8 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities,and powers having been subjected to him.
21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet”’?
33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.


That's a whole lot of Scripture you have to dismiss or allegorize away friend.

 

[Noose]

I am not confused.

This is what you claim with your mouth but what you demonstrate is confusion.

Clearly all 3 members of the 1 God were Present AND separate at Jesus' Baptism. No need for your private interpretations.

Jesus is fully God.

YHWH the Father is fully God.

The Holy Spirit is fully God.

This is the confusion i'm talking about.
If Jesus who we all know is One person/One being is Fully God/One God and All deity dwells in Him - then there you have your God and His description is One person, one God.
You can not have other distinct persons and still have one God.

There are many unanswerable questions surrounding this issue. Since you acknowledge Jesus is God, how can He not know the day or the hour, at least before His resurrection? Those unanswerable questions don't change that there is ONE God, existing in 3 persons. He IS God after all. Is that an unachievable thing for Him to do?

Like i said, those things are written so that you may understand and not for your confusion. This is unanswerable only to a trinitarian. Jesus is the first and the last, the beginning and the end, how can He not know the end which He claims to be? Doesn't Jesus know Himself?
Jesus never said "i don't know the hour", He simply said "the son doesn't know the hour". This reinforces the fact that the son is not a person but an authority whose vacancy He created for you and i through which we are saved by becoming one with the Father.
Jesus came to demonstrate sonship.

Jesus currently is at the Right Hand of His Father:

There's no such thing as the right hand of the Father, only a trinitarian who has broken God into different parts would come up with such an expression.
The true expression should be 'the right hand of God'. It is not a place but a condition; it means glory, victory, Righteousness.

When God says "i will uphold you with my right hand", doesn't mean He will use His physical right hand to do anything, it means you will be righteous or victorious. If there such a thing as a physical right hand, then there should be a left hand too. We don't see anything about this left hand.

 

[CherieR]

Bad doctrine is like gangrene. It needs to be excised from the body.

2 Tim 2: 14Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.19But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Fundamentals such as the deity of Christ and the Trinity are important. And, to be honest, if you think they are minor issues, why do you try to convince others that they should deny these core teachings? Why not just remain silent about them?

The reality is that you want to convince others that you are right. Heretical people are driven to do this.

How important do you view the Trinity? Do you believe one must be a Trinitarian in order to be saved? If someone believes in Jesus and that he came in the flesh and is God but does not agree with Trinitarism or does not understand it, do you see his/her salvation at stake?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

How important do you view the Trinity? Do you believe one must be a Trinitarian in order to be saved? If someone believes in Jesus and that he came in the flesh and is God but does not agree with Trinitarism or does not understand it, do you see his/her salvation at stake?

Ultimately, I don't decide anyone's salvation, but I don't believe those who deny Jesus is God are believers. Additionally, I don't believe those who are engaged in teaching false doctrines, such as anti-Trinitarianism, are real believers. Quite often, their rejection of the Trinity is accompanied by other false doctrine, distortion of church history, and paranoid, anti-Christian teachings. These are some of the hallmarks of cultic behavior.

I am sure some of my friends don't understand the Trinity, but they aren't engaged in defiantly teaching against it, and trying to arouse suspicion against Christian organizations regarding it. Additionally, it takes some time for new believers to understand the doctrine.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Nope.

Jesus was not quoting David rather David prophesied (pre-quoted Jesus). The words were meaningful in the context of Jesus on the cross and not David in his palace.
If you want to know how Jesus felt, you can go to that Psalm. The Psalm doesn't portray what David felt.

Jesus was distanced from the Father in the crucifixion, because he paid the price of the sins of believers. Part of this cost was alienation from God.

This does nothing to disprove the deity of Christ or the Trinity, though.

Jesus had a dual nature, being both God (YHVH) and man. He could be alienated from the Father in the sense of his humanity.

These are not new arguments, by the way. Christians already know that Jesus has two natures, man and God. This was necessary for the atonement and other reasons. You really need to study the creeds if you think Christians don't already understand these feeble arguments.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

This is what you claim with your mouth but what you demonstrate is confusion.



This is the confusion i'm talking about.
If Jesus who we all know is One person/One being is Fully God/One God and All deity dwells in Him - then there you have your God and His description is One person, one God.
You can not have other distinct persons and still have one God.



Like i said, those things are written so that you may understand and not for your confusion. This is unanswerable only to a trinitarian. Jesus is the first and the last, the beginning and the end, how can He not know the end which He claims to be? Doesn't Jesus know Himself?
Jesus never said "i don't know the hour", He simply said "the son doesn't know the hour". This reinforces the fact that the son is not a person but an authority whose vacancy He created for you and i through which we are saved by becoming one with the Father.
Jesus came to demonstrate sonship.



There's no such thing as the right hand of the Father, only a trinitarian who has broken God into different parts would come up with such an expression.
The true expression should be 'the right hand of God'. It is not a place but a condition; it means glory, victory, Righteousness.

When God says "i will uphold you with my right hand", doesn't mean He will use His physical right hand to do anything, it means you will be righteous or victorious. If there such a thing as a physical right hand, then there should be a left hand too. We don't see anything about this left hand.

Jesus had two distinct NATURES.

By the way, Trinitarians understand the "right hand" you are referencing. Quit telling people Trinitarians don't understand something that is well-understood. All they have to do is buy a decent study bible and they will know you are misrepresenting Trinitarian theology.

By the way if anyone is watching and wants a good one, I recommend Zondervan NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible.

Right hand is a position of strength or authority by the way. I wouldn't describe the phrase exactly as you are describing it.

And, regarding the Son being only a position of authority and not a Person, this is bunk. Jesus shares his Sonship, as part of the benefits of being joined to him, but Jesus is not a mere position of authority. This is kooky.