Total Depravity
- Thread starter TMS
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
open theism? its consistent i can agree to that. but biblical? not really.
God declaring the end from the beginning, people being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, being in Christ from before the foundation of the world, lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, prophecies of such detail that if God did not know the future, it could not have been fulfilled. think the birth of Jesus or st.Peter's denial of Jesus? so many free will actions involved, God had to know beforehand what happens.
i feel like open theism is just trying to make God into the image of man, a warm and loving dad in the sky who tries His best, but things often dont go his way because bad humans just ruin it.
you get rid of the problem of evil, but run into whole other problems, big problems, like your God not passing the 'true God' test from isaiah:
Isaiah 41:23-24
Let them bring them forward and declare to us what is going to take place; As for the former events, declare what they were, So that we may consider them and know their outcome. Or announce to us what is coming;
Declare the things that are going to come afterward, So that we may know that you are gods; Indeed, do good or evil, that we may be afraid and fear together.
God declaring the end from the beginning, people being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, being in Christ from before the foundation of the world, lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, prophecies of such detail that if God did not know the future, it could not have been fulfilled. think the birth of Jesus or st.Peter's denial of Jesus? so many free will actions involved, God had to know beforehand what happens.
i feel like open theism is just trying to make God into the image of man, a warm and loving dad in the sky who tries His best, but things often dont go his way because bad humans just ruin it.
you get rid of the problem of evil, but run into whole other problems, big problems, like your God not passing the 'true God' test from isaiah:
Isaiah 41:23-24
Let them bring them forward and declare to us what is going to take place; As for the former events, declare what they were, So that we may consider them and know their outcome. Or announce to us what is coming;
Declare the things that are going to come afterward, So that we may know that you are gods; Indeed, do good or evil, that we may be afraid and fear together.
-
3
-
3
- Show all
scripture tells us that Cain's works were evil, not that his intentions were. that is, the offering he brought was an evil work - the clear implication is not that he brought an acceptable offering with his heart in the wrong place, but that the offering he brought was itself evil.
Cain murdered his brother because Cain had done evil and Abel had done righteousness; coming to God with the slain lamb is righteousness and is done by faith and what Cain did is a direct contrast.
Cain murdered his brother because Cain had done evil and Abel had done righteousness; coming to God with the slain lamb is righteousness and is done by faith and what Cain did is a direct contrast.
1 John 3:11-12
For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, not as Cain [who] was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.
-
1
- Show all
I had to look up exactly what "open theism" is. Wow! Unbelievable.
“Open theism,” also known as “openness theology,” the “openness of God,” and “free will theism,” is an attempt to explain the foreknowledge of God in relationship to the free will of man. The argument of open theism is essentially this: human beings are truly free; if God absolutely knew the future, human beings could not truly be free. Therefore, God does not know absolutely everything about the future. Open theism holds that the future is not knowable. Therefore, God knows everything that can be known, but He does not know the future.
All in light of multiple passages like this:
God’s Perfect Knowledge of Man
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
139 O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You [a]comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether.
5 You have [b]hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
“Open theism,” also known as “openness theology,” the “openness of God,” and “free will theism,” is an attempt to explain the foreknowledge of God in relationship to the free will of man. The argument of open theism is essentially this: human beings are truly free; if God absolutely knew the future, human beings could not truly be free. Therefore, God does not know absolutely everything about the future. Open theism holds that the future is not knowable. Therefore, God knows everything that can be known, but He does not know the future.
All in light of multiple passages like this:
God’s Perfect Knowledge of Man
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
139 O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You [a]comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether.
5 You have [b]hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
-
1
-
1
-
1
- Show all
i know right? its hard to believe that there is theology out there that claims God doesn't know the future. these are christians too btw.
im not gonna make a judgment on anyone's salvation if they confess Christ and live accordingly, but this is some strange theology, its so evidently unbiblical.
im not gonna make a judgment on anyone's salvation if they confess Christ and live accordingly, but this is some strange theology, its so evidently unbiblical.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
It makes no sense to me and how on earth could He have given so much EXACT prophecy THE WHOLE TIME, and doesn't know the future. This is almost silly beyond belief. It's the deification of "mans choice", in the place of Gods sovereignty. We just can't let go of the thought we have no control, and the fact we have a will does not contradict the fact we are all slaves.
We are NEVER "free" as they like to think of it. When confronted with these ideas the first thing they go to is "so God kills babies and chooses people for Hell". It's like they frame it the worse possible way and reject any kind of thinking these thing out fully. It's no different thank the political climate and conversation style. The person will tell you what you believe, why you believe it, then go on to let you know why "your" belief is wrong without EVER having listen to you or asked you a single question. They never even take the time to find out that you do not believe anything like the strawman they created and labeled "your beliefs" then went on to burn to the ground. I've done the same kind of things before and it never helps, it never glorifies our King. I understand why people think this way, and how it's reinforced by the popular "Christian ethos" and tradition by people that are great men of God in some cases, but these things run deep and truth is never easy or painless. This idea that "our choice" is what is a driving force behind ideas like you can lose salvation, and God doesn't know the future. It's just lifting our choice above where it should truly be. We are slaves of sin or in Christ we are slaves of obedience, which leads to righteousness.
We are NEVER "free" as they like to think of it. When confronted with these ideas the first thing they go to is "so God kills babies and chooses people for Hell". It's like they frame it the worse possible way and reject any kind of thinking these thing out fully. It's no different thank the political climate and conversation style. The person will tell you what you believe, why you believe it, then go on to let you know why "your" belief is wrong without EVER having listen to you or asked you a single question. They never even take the time to find out that you do not believe anything like the strawman they created and labeled "your beliefs" then went on to burn to the ground. I've done the same kind of things before and it never helps, it never glorifies our King. I understand why people think this way, and how it's reinforced by the popular "Christian ethos" and tradition by people that are great men of God in some cases, but these things run deep and truth is never easy or painless. This idea that "our choice" is what is a driving force behind ideas like you can lose salvation, and God doesn't know the future. It's just lifting our choice above where it should truly be. We are slaves of sin or in Christ we are slaves of obedience, which leads to righteousness.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
From Romans 6:16-18 ~ Do you not know that you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
"God declaring the end from the beginning,... " Even humans can declare an end from a beginning without knowing in advance all the events between and without controlling all events between. So claiming that declaring the end from the beginning requires exhaustive foreknowledge and exhaustive predetermination is simply an illogical overreach.
"... people being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world..." Names being written into a book since the foundation of the world" is not the same as names being written into that book before or at the foundation of the world. The Hebrew and Greek does not get you to "people being written into the book of life at or before the foundation of the world. If they are added as history proceeds, as they appear on the stage, there is no need for exhaustive divine foreknowledge of their arrival on the scene.
".... being in Christ from before the foundation of the world..." I'd need a scripture for that claim. I don't think scripture says that anywhere. You may be erroneously paraphrasing some other scripture.
,".... lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world... " One key item identified foreknown from the beginning and brought to pass using omnipotence, does not confirm that all events were foreknown from the beginning and brought to pass using omnipotence.
,"... prophecies of such detail that if God did not know the future, it could not have been fulfilled." There are no prophecies that are so detailed that they could come to pass only if God had exhaustive foreknowledge of all future events.
"... think the birth of Jesus or st.Peter's denial of Jesus? so many free will actions involved, God had to know beforehand what happens." Yes God knew those details beforehand and announced them beforehand and brought them to pass at the time of His choosing, just as Is Isaiah described as proof that God is the LIVING GOD, with ability to decree when He wills, know what He is predicting, and has the power to bring it to pass after predicting it.
Isaiah 41:23-24
18 I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.
19 I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the shittah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:
20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the Lord hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
21 Produce your cause, saith the Lord; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.
22 Let them (the stone and wooden idols that cannot speak to answer you) bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them (the stone and wooden idols that cannot speak to answer you) shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or (let the stone and wooden idols that cannot speak to answer you) declare us things for to come.
23 [You stone and wooden idols that cannot speak to answer], Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye (the stone and wooden idols that cannot speak to answer) are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24 Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.
"... i feel like open theism is just trying to make God into the image of man, a warm and loving dad in the sky who tries His best, but things often don't go his way because bad humans just ruin it."
Regardless of your feelings, how does the Bible describe God's interactions with mankind? Does scripture report God as sometimes complaining that His plans for man have failed? Does scripture report God as sometimes regretting His own actions? Does scripture report God as sometimes changing His mind and not doing what He had earlier thought and intended and said He would do? None of these behaviours are compatible with a God who has exhaustive foreknowledge of every future event.
"... people being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world..." Names being written into a book since the foundation of the world" is not the same as names being written into that book before or at the foundation of the world. The Hebrew and Greek does not get you to "people being written into the book of life at or before the foundation of the world. If they are added as history proceeds, as they appear on the stage, there is no need for exhaustive divine foreknowledge of their arrival on the scene.
".... being in Christ from before the foundation of the world..." I'd need a scripture for that claim. I don't think scripture says that anywhere. You may be erroneously paraphrasing some other scripture.
,".... lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world... " One key item identified foreknown from the beginning and brought to pass using omnipotence, does not confirm that all events were foreknown from the beginning and brought to pass using omnipotence.
,"... prophecies of such detail that if God did not know the future, it could not have been fulfilled." There are no prophecies that are so detailed that they could come to pass only if God had exhaustive foreknowledge of all future events.
"... think the birth of Jesus or st.Peter's denial of Jesus? so many free will actions involved, God had to know beforehand what happens." Yes God knew those details beforehand and announced them beforehand and brought them to pass at the time of His choosing, just as Is Isaiah described as proof that God is the LIVING GOD, with ability to decree when He wills, know what He is predicting, and has the power to bring it to pass after predicting it.
Isaiah 41:23-24
18 I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.
19 I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the shittah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:
20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the Lord hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
21 Produce your cause, saith the Lord; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.
22 Let them (the stone and wooden idols that cannot speak to answer you) bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them (the stone and wooden idols that cannot speak to answer you) shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or (let the stone and wooden idols that cannot speak to answer you) declare us things for to come.
23 [You stone and wooden idols that cannot speak to answer], Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye (the stone and wooden idols that cannot speak to answer) are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24 Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.
"... i feel like open theism is just trying to make God into the image of man, a warm and loving dad in the sky who tries His best, but things often don't go his way because bad humans just ruin it."
Regardless of your feelings, how does the Bible describe God's interactions with mankind? Does scripture report God as sometimes complaining that His plans for man have failed? Does scripture report God as sometimes regretting His own actions? Does scripture report God as sometimes changing His mind and not doing what He had earlier thought and intended and said He would do? None of these behaviours are compatible with a God who has exhaustive foreknowledge of every future event.
-
1
- Show all
OK complete knowledgeof the present. I agree. What about when God expected grapes but received only sour grapes? How does this show God has perfect knowledge of everything that will happen in future?
5 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain
5 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain
This is not, as you suggest, God being confused and dumbfounded by His failed plans having been overturned by man.
This is the fulfillment of the very thing God prophesied a thousand years prior to it happening.
This is the fulfillment of the very thing God prophesied a thousand years prior to it happening.
Deuteronomy 31:16
And the LORD said to Moses:
"Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go [to be] among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them."
