Total Depravity

[Evmur]

Funny! If it was that easy to raise the dead, doctors in hospitals would be slapping flat-liners' bottoms instead of using the electric paddles.

smacking bottoms, electric paddles ... much the same thing

 

[Magenta]

Molinism? I have to look into that. I have heard it mentioned by James White when talking
about William Lane Craig. It seemed really complicated so I never looked into it. I will now.

Calvinists have TULIP and Arminians have DAISIES and FACTS and Molinists have ROSES.

Every single one affirms the corruption/depravity of man. Because Scripture does.

So in actual fact, one does not need to be Calvinist, Arminian, or Molinist to agree with Scripture.

Depravity

 

[Mem]

Everything we have was given to us by God. <= That is definitely in Scripture.

Scripture also explicitly states that it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Why do you repeatedly deny this?

Though I may be reticent to admit it , I hold to a similar view as @HeIsHere does on this topic. And I do not deny that God's mercy precedes man's desire or effort. That is, man's will, nor effort, would be sufficient if it were not God's will that anyone could be saved. But can we say that God gives mercy to whom He wills... without good reason?

BTW, I'm sticking with the CACTI, whatever anyone wants to call that.

 

[posthuman]

Calvinists have TULIP and Arminians have DAISIES and FACTS and Molinists have ROSES.

Every single one affirms the corruption/depravity of man. Because Scripture does.

So in actual fact, one does not need to be Calvinist, Arminian, or Molinist to agree with Scripture.

Depravity

it's really about Pelagianism.

do we have any part in saving ourselves or does God alone save us, in every aspect?

 

[Magenta]

Though I may be reticent to admit it , I hold to a similar view as @HeIsHere does on this topic. And I do not deny that God's mercy precedes man's desire or effort. That is, man's will, nor effort, would be sufficient if it were not God's will that anyone could be saved. But can we say that God gives mercy to whom He wills... without good reason?

BTW, I'm sticking with the CACTI, whatever anyone wants to call that.

Holding a similar view meaning you believe the natural man, who is hostile in his mind toward God since he is after all captive to the devil's will, a lover of darkness because his deeds are evil, and suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, is in that condition free in his own will to choose to believe in God without God doing something first to make making that choice possible? That God doing something first makes God unfair if He does not do that same thing for everyone whether everyone would ultimately desire it or not?

 

[Mem]

Holding a similar view meaning you believe the natural man, who is hostile in his mind toward God since he is after all captive to the devil's will, a lover of darkness because his deeds are evil, and suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, is in that condition free in his own will to choose to believe in God without God doing something first to make making that choice possible? That God doing something first makes God unfair if He does not do that same thing for everyone whether everyone would ultimately desire it or not?

When that man is wise enough to realize he is indeed being held captive and hears that the deliver is come, he is left with nothing but to believe in the truth of that reality or to continue in despair, even in continuing to lie to himself that his situation is all peachy.

 

[HeIsHere]

it's really about Pelagianism.

do we have any part in saving ourselves or does God alone save us, in every aspect?

The boogey man ... Pelagius

Oh the heretic, Pelagius, God forbid someone not accept the gnosticism/determinism of Augustine.

fyi

Pelagius stood up against Augustine’s new doctrinal positions and even went so far as to accuse him of being under the influence of his former Manichean/Gnostic roots, which was known to teach pagan fatalism wrapped up as a Christian doctrine.

Augustine, in turn, accused Pelagius of denying any need for divine aid in the conversion process, which he actually did not teach, but Augustine's smear campaign was more effective.

 

[Magenta]

it's really about Pelagianism.

do we have any part in saving ourselves or does God alone save us, in every aspect?

God made us alive while we were yet dead in our sins... I don't know how people get around that.
Aside from saying, of course, that their decision to believe caused God to do that for them.

When that man is wise enough to realize he is indeed being held captive and hears that a deliver
is come, he is left with nothing but to believe in the truth of that reality or to continue in despair,
even in continuing to lie to himself that his situation is all peachy.

Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Do atheists and agnostics etc fear God?
Does someone with an uncircumcised heart fear God?

Augustine, in turn, accused Pelagius of denying any need for divine aid in the conversion process, which he actually did not teach, but Augustine's smear campaign was more effective.

You deny the need for divine aid. You say God is unfair to give aid to some and not others.

 

[HeIsHere]

it's really about Pelagianism.

do we have any part in saving ourselves or does God alone save us, in every aspect?

It is really about does God reach into the internal soul/spirit of a person/heart of man and change them internally before saving them?

 

[Magenta]

It is really about does God reach into the internal soul/spirit of a person/heart of man and change them internally before saving them?

Perhaps the doing of the former is part and parcel of accomplishing the latter. Very good question.

I say so because I know that is exactly what God did for me.

And if He hadn't I would not be a believer.

Which is another reason why I will never accept your proposition that God
does not do that, does not need to do that, and is unfair if He does do that.

Characterizing it as being kidnapped against my will does not fly for me either.

 

[Mem]

When that man is wise enough to realize he is indeed being held captive and hears that the deliver is come, he is left with nothing but to believe in the truth of that reality

This is the sole credit given for wisdom is to be judged as "good and faithful servant," unless we have to add works to the equation. Otherwise, it is just an assertion that God only judges himself as "good and faithful."

Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Do atheists and agnostics etc fear God?
Does someone with an uncircumcised heart fear God?

 

[Mem]

It is really about does God reach into the internal soul/spirit of a person/heart of man and change them internally before saving them?

He reached in and saved me when I had given up on myself.

 

[Magenta]

This is the sole credit given for wisdom is to be judged as "good and faithful servant," unless we have to add works to the equation. Otherwise, it is just an assertion that God only judges himself as "good and faithful."

Well, the good we do is God working through us, we can do nothing aside from Him, and all is for God's glory... so...

Jesus did say God alone is good.

 

[Hakawaka]

Calvinists have TULIP and Arminians have DAISIES and FACTS and Molinists have ROSES.

Every single one affirms the corruption/depravity of man. Because Scripture does.

So in actual fact, one does not need to be Calvinist, Arminian, or Molinist to agree with Scripture.

Depravity

I also agree that man fell in Adam, I do believe in "original sin" in that sense. I just dont see the Bible teaching the calvinist version of total depravity. Men who werent saved yet, but who were "God fearing gentiles" for example, like Cornelius clearly werent hopelessly depraved.

I looked up the DAISY and ROSES. If I had to choose between the 3 flowers id choose DAISY.

 

[Mem]

Well, the good we do is God working through us, we can do nothing aside from Him, and all is for God's glory... so...

Jesus did say God alone is good.

There's no denying that, and let no man call evil what God calls good.

I have to scat. Gbaky!

 

[posthuman]

It is really about does God reach into the internal soul/spirit of a person/heart of man and change them internally before saving them?

i am not sure about 'before' - - wouldn't that be tantamount to saving me?

 

[HeIsHere]

He reached in and saved me when I had given up on myself.

Yes that is salvation. Agreed.
Not always easy to understand a subjective experience as to the process, things can happen simultaneously.

My firm belief is that there is the condition to receiving the gift of salvation and it is faith in/trust in Jesus and His offer of salvation to whosoever will believe.

This does not mean we save ourselves, it means we accept the gift and yes we can believe that there is a gift which Christ Jesus offers if the Gospel is taught correctly and the person is persuaded by the its truth.

Objectively we rely on scripture.
Regeneration does not precede faith.
Before conversion the Holy Spirit is around the person but not in the person.

 

[HeIsHere]

i am not sure about 'before' - - wouldn't that be tantamount to saving me?

No, I do not see that if you view salvation as the gift.

 

[posthuman]

No.

why not?

does He change someone's heart and they change it back?

is His will thwarted by a man's?

 

[Hakawaka]

it's really about Pelagianism.

do we have any part in saving ourselves or does God alone save us, in every aspect?

There are pretty much 0 pelagians around these days friend. Calvinists like to use that word, but it doesn't even describe roman catholics accurately, they disagree with Pelagius, roman catholics believe in original sin as well. Which is why they baptize babies!