Total Depravity

[PaulThomson]

Cain offered to God the fruit of his labour, the fruit of the sweat of his brow, he is the father of all those who say "no but we must earn our salvation with works"

Cain did not see the necessity for death to self. For the need of miraculous forgiveness. For substitution, the transferral of his sins onto an innocent victim.

... yet he slew innocent Abel.

You are reading New Testament revelation back into the Old tTestament, which is fair enough in terms of drawing out edifying typology. But we should not be ascribing to Old Testament characters ideas originating in New Testament revelation regarding God's secret plan of the cross and only brought to light to the church in Christ after the plan had been carried out.

I agree with your typological inferences. I disagree that they account for Cain's and Abel's actions. I don't think God puppeteered Cain and Abel to behave as they did in order to create a picture of spiritual truths.

I think God selected from among freely performed actions, those actions that fit spiritual truths, and had those recorded for the benefit of generations that would follow.

 

[PaulThomson]

this is not correct Abel's sacrifice took away his sins, Cain's sacrifice did not.

It is not possible for bulls and goats and sheep to take away sins. It is a consequence of our coming to God withrepentance and faith that God casts our sins away from us as far s the east is from the west.

 

[posthuman]

Abel removed the blood and presumably returned it to the ground before offering the flesh. bones and fat. I do not see how anyone can reasonably conclude that Abel offered the blood, when what was offered was what was left after the blood had been removed, so that no blood was offered. That makes no sense to me.

the point is that blood was shed in his offering, not that the blood itself was offered - and that Cain's gift was correspondingly bloodless.

these events are related to us immediately after we are told about great sin involving the fruit of the ground and great mercy involving the shedding of blood. it should seem obvious that there is a relationship between Genesis 4 & 3

 

[posthuman]

Fair criticism. Yes, I was importing a first fruit terminology into Gen 4. I don't think the offering was rejected because it was not first fruits. I think it was rejected because it was not offered in faith, but as a bribe which Cain had hoped would gain him an abundant next harvest, as Abel's offering (but offered in faith) had blessed Abel's flocks. I think that when his bribe was not effective, he hated his brother.

God does not respond to Cain that he should 'have a better internal intention' but that he should 'do' what is right.

 

[Jimbone]

Well again it's the world not the people. The people will commit sin because they give into the world. They choose the world over God and this is why they sin. We are all born good and without sin. The correct position is that God is not at fault for our sins, it's our fault for giving into the world and sinning against God since God made us good and God made us with no predisposition to sin, but God made us with intent that we be his children. The theme of the world being at enmity with God and the world being the cause of sin is very recurring throughout all the Bible. Let us consider 1 John 2.

1 John 2:15-17
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I'm sorry brother, we are not "born good" as you say. We are born spiritually dead and disconnected from God. This is the state we are in until we are born again in spirit and this can ONLY happen through Jesus. I understand what you mean as far as babies not being "sinners" in the sense they don't have the capacity to have maliciously sin strait out of the womb, but this doesn't at all negate the fact that baby is disconnected from God the same way every single human being to be born in history was. All except Jesus, however He was not conceived in Adam was He? He was born of the Spirit right? See how that works and is completely consistent? So while I do understand why you say this, and understand that none of us want to sit around saying our baby isn't 100% saved in every way, the truth is that we are NOT "born good" and not born saved, that is just not true. Praise God that He is merciful and has made a way for us to reconnect to Him for eternity. I do not doubt for a second that the tragic loss of any baby, they will be in His arms, but again this does not change the fact that we are not "born good".

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Very nice ... I love those verses. One day we will stand with Job in new bodies and see Him with our own eyes

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
.

 

[Mem]

7 verses previous to this we have God shedding blood and making garments to cover Adam and Eve: the first sacrifice in all of scripture.

it is not unrelated that 'in the process of time' - indicating a set period - Abel sheds blood and offers parts of those things which God had likewise sacrificed for his parents sake, probably 33 years beforehand.

if we just look at what is in the immediate context in the text, it is clear they are participating in a commemoration, repeating the example God gave, which is recorded 7 verses previous to this record.

just as Genesis 2 parallels Genesis 1, Genesis 4 parallels Genesis 3 - it is the Hebrew pattern of recurrence in writing, repeating a theme from another perspective, emphasizing repeated details, adding information to the thing being taught.

Then it would logically follow that Cain's sacrifice was considered the equivalent of a fig leaf.

 

[Mem]

In a man-to-God scenario, no, you cannot "devise [your] own way". I believe there is only one Way to approach God and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

And this translates to me as, the only way to approach God is 'man-to-Man,' and it is only Christ's condescension that makes this possible.

 

[SonJudgment]

this is not correct Abel's sacrifice took away his sins, Cain's sacrifice did not.

Abel didn't commit any sins as far as we're told in the Bible. His sacrifice just merely found favor with God whereas God did not have respect unto Cain's sacrifice. Cain's sacrifice is not his sin, his sin is giving into the world, his emotions of wrath and envy of his brother, and his envy and anger at his brother for being good brings forth his sin which is murdering innocent Abel. It's really just as simple as it is written.

I'm sorry brother, we are not "born good" as you say. We are born spiritually dead and disconnected from God. This is the state we are in until we are born again in spirit and this can ONLY happen through Jesus. I understand what you mean as far as babies not being "sinners" in the sense they don't have the capacity to have maliciously sin strait out of the womb, but this doesn't at all negate the fact that baby is disconnected from God the same way every single human being to be born in history was. All except Jesus, however He was not conceived in Adam was He? He was born of the Spirit right? See how that works and is completely consistent? So while I do understand why you say this, and understand that none of us want to sit around saying our baby isn't 100% saved in every way, the truth is that we are NOT "born good" and not born saved, that is just not true. Praise God that He is merciful and has made a way for us to reconnect to Him for eternity. I do not doubt for a second that the tragic loss of any baby, they will be in His arms, but again this does not change the fact that we are not "born good".

No, not even close, God did not make us to be sinful and God does not tempt so he did not make us with a propensity to sin either. God has always been telling the truth from the beginning even before they ate of the fruit forbidden, which if they just had listened to God they'd still be alive. All scriptures indicate that we're born good and without sin, but that we will fall short because we live in a fallen world and when we side with the world we turn against God which is sin. Yes Jesus indeed reconciles us to God but then he always has since he is the Word of God even before he was made flesh and crucified for propitation of sins, but especially now that he has. Nevertheless the scriptures are abundantly clear that we still have to eschew the world and choose God cause you can't be the friend of the world and also be the friend of God.

Let's consider another verse where it shows clearly that we're not to conform to the world, conforming to the world is what brings forth sin, God did not make us to be sinful, but the world, being corrupted, will bring us into sin.

Romans 12:2
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[Jimbone]

Abel didn't commit any sins as far as we're told in the Bible. His sacrifice just merely found favor with God whereas God did not have respect unto Cain's sacrifice. Cain's sacrifice is not his sin, his sin is giving into the world, his emotions of wrath and envy of his brother, and his envy and anger at his brother for being good brings forth his sin which is murdering innocent Abel. It's really just as simple as it is written.



No, not even close, God did not make us to be sinful and God does not tempt so he did not make us with a propensity to sin either. God has always been telling the truth from the beginning even before they ate of the fruit forbidden, which if they just had listened to God they'd still be alive. All scriptures indicate that we're born good and without sin, but that we will fall short because we live in a fallen world and when we side with the world we turn against God which is sin. Yes Jesus indeed reconciles us to God but then he always has since he is the Word of God even before he was made flesh and crucified for propitation of sins, but especially now that he has. Nevertheless the scriptures are abundantly clear that we still have to eschew the world and choose God cause you can't be the friend of the world and also be the friend of God.

Let's consider another verse where it shows clearly that we're not to conform to the world, conforming to the world is what brings forth sin, God did not make us to be sinful, but the world, being corrupted, will bring us into sin.

Romans 12:2
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

You are wrong plain and simple. We are not "born good". Not sure how you believe this once you KNOW the truth. I thought the same way when I thought I was saved but wasn't. All I can say to you from here is saved or not keep seeking. If you don't understand that we are born spiritually dead then I can only conclude you're completely ignorant of the things of the spirit. I of course am not trying to act as if I know your salvation status, but I thought the same way when I thought I was saved but wasn't, this isn't a dig at you, we can't know what we've NEVER seen or experienced.

What you're trying to say here, that we are born good and decide to be a little bad later is completely foreign to scripture and is honestly kind of manic, unorganized, nonsensical, and disjointed. I can only see this kind of misunderstanding of the fundamentals coming from someone who has not been born again, they may love the idea of Jesus, but they do not know Him. I was this kind of false convert for at least 5 years before He saved me, without my help, without my assistance, heck without me even calling on Jesus name at the time of true repentance, He did it and gets ALL the glory, I get NONE. We are BORN broken, this is truth 101, I'm not going to keep arguing with you over it, but am telling you in Jesus name and as a brother, that you're wrong about this FACT.

 

[PennEd]

We are all born good and without sin.

Wow.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

Romans 3:10
as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.


Please show a single verse that says "we are born good and without sin".

 

[SonJudgment]

You are wrong plain and simple. We are not "born good". Not sure how you believe this once you KNOW the truth. I thought the same way when I thought I was saved but wasn't. All I can say to you from here is saved or not keep seeking. If you don't understand that we are born spiritually dead then I can only conclude you're completely ignorant of the things of the spirit. I of course am not trying to act as if I know your salvation status, but I thought the same way when I thought I was saved but wasn't, this isn't a dig at you, we can't know what we've NEVER seen or experienced.

What you're trying to say here, that we are born good and decide to be a little bad later is completely foreign to scripture and is honestly kind of manic, unorganized, nonsensical, and disjointed. I can only see this kind of misunderstanding of the fundamentals coming from someone who has not been born again, they may love the idea of Jesus, but they do not know Him. I was this kind of false convert for at least 5 years before He saved me, without my help, without my assistance, heck without me even calling on Jesus name at the time of true repentance, He did it and gets ALL the glory, I get NONE. We are BORN broken, this is truth 101, I'm not going to keep arguing with you over it, but am telling you in Jesus name and as a brother, that you're wrong about this FACT.

Well no, you're just incorrect in your many assumptions it would seem. I'm not new to Christianity and I have read the Bible many times over. You can't blame God for you committing sin and siding with the world, only you are to blame for that just like I alone am to blame for siding with the world and committing sin. It's not God's fault that people sin, nor has he ever tempted them to sin. God told the truth from the beginning, he made us good from the beginning. Therefore the fault is squarely on the corrupted world and people for choosing the world over God and they are without excuses and would be most prudent to just throw themselves at the mercy of God.

1 John 5:19
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[SonJudgment]

Wow.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

Romans 3:10
as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.


Please show a single verse that says "we are born good and without sin".

Genesis 1:27-31
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[PennEd]

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

And then what happened?

 

[PaulThomson]

the point is that blood was shed in his offering, not that the blood itself was offered - and that Cain's gift was correspondingly bloodless.

these events are related to us immediately after we are told about great sin involving the fruit of the ground and great mercy involving the shedding of blood. it should seem obvious that there is a relationship between Genesis 4 & 3

I am not disagreeing that there is a relationship between what is recorded in Gen 3 and what is recorded in Genesis four, in terms of the events out of Cains and Abel's entire multi=century-long lives God chose to memorialise in scripture. I disagree that Cain and Abel had any awareness that these particular events typified spiritual truths that would be read into their actions millennia later. Nor fdo I agree that these events were necessarily engineered by God in order to have material to add to the Bible that would convey these particular spiritual truths that would be discerned in them through the lens of Christ millennia later. Such an interpretation of the text issues IMO from a presupposition of exhaustive divine predeterminism, which is a presupposition I personally do not begin with.

 

[PaulThomson]

Cain offered to God the fruit of his labour, the fruit of the sweat of his brow, he is the father of all those who say "no but we must earn our salvation with works"

Cain did not see the necessity for death to self. For the need of miraculous forgiveness. For substitution, the transferral of his sins onto an innocent victim.

... yet he slew innocent Abel.

That may well be the case. I don't know, because the text does not say so. Abelalso pffered the fruit of his labour and the fruit of the sweat of his brow.. There is no indication in the text that Cain thought he must earn salvation by works.

There is no indication in the text that either Cain or Abel saw
the necessity for death to self. For the need of miraculous forgiveness. For substitution, the transferral of his sins onto an innocent victim.

 

[PaulThomson]

God does not respond to Cain that he should 'have a better internal intention' but that he should 'do' what is right.

Was God instructing Cain to seek salvation by works?

 

[SonJudgment]

And then what happened?

Then there was a beast of the earth that sinned in the beginning by deceiving the woman to eat from the tree that God had forbidden and she sided with the world and she ate and then she gave to Adam the fruit and he took the side of the world by taking her side instead of staying with God's Word, and he ate. Not God's fault they sinned, they were not born sinful nor had they a propensity to sin, but even above this God had forewarned them telling the truth from the beginning, so that just makes it their own fault even more. Then you have Cain and Abel as have been discussed lately, both born good and both did not inherit Adam and Eve's sin, and both did not have a propensity to sin. Abel found favor with God through his sacrifice, but God did not respect Cain's sacrifice. Cain's countenance fell and he had emotions about it which emotions as we know from the Bible and past verses posted are earthly, and God by his Word told Cain that if he does well he will be accepted and if he does not do well he will sin. Cain rather than stay with God's Word gave into the world, he gave into his emotions, and then he sinned and murdered his innocent brother, and that is his sin. Cain's sin is not Adam's fault, and Cain's sin is not God's fault, Cain's sin is his own fault because he listened to the world rather than God. Then you have this pattern all throughout the Bible until we reach Ezekiel's time and in Ezekiel's time the children of Israel developped a doctrine that is basically the same doctrine as total depravity/original sin in their proverb of "the fathes ate sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge" and God hated this doctrine and sent his prophets to tell the people that no, that's not the case at all and we have the very complete chapter of Ezekiel 18 that foolproofs the correct doctrine using all scenarios. So then the original topic and OP question and list of three options is fulfilled strongly in option 1 and the topic is basically exhausted and can only really begin to digress into different topics or else become personal in nature.

 

[PennEd]

Then there was a beast of the earth that sinned

You mean Satan.

she sided with the world

The "world" was not yet cursed. Neither was the Tree of Knowledge.

Not God's fault they sinned,

Of course not. Whoever said it was?

they were not born sinful nor had they a propensity to sin,

Neither one was "born" they were both CREATED by the Hand of God. But you are right that they were not born sinful.

both born good and both did not inherit Adam and Eve's sin, and both did not have a propensity to sin.

You made this up.
Jesus died for Abel, just like he did for us, BECAUSE of his, and our sin.
Every person born after Adam fell was born in the likeness and image of Adam. ALL humans after the fall are in need of a new "born again" Spirit. That's the ENTIRE reason God had to send His Son to die.

emotions as we know from the Bible and past verses posted are earthly,

NOTHING wrong with emotions. It's CONTROLLING those emotions through the Holy Spirit we must do.
Jesus Christ has, and displayed human emotions. (Anger, sadness, etc...)

Cain's sin is not Adam's fault, and Cain's sin is not God's fault,

Whoever said it was? You are erecting a number of strawmen.

 

[SonJudgment]

You mean Satan.

The "world" was not yet cursed. Neither was the Tree of Knowledge.

Of course not. Whoever said it was?

Neither one was "born" they were both CREATED by the Hand of God. But you are right that they were not born sinful.

You made this up.
Jesus died for Abel, just like he did for us, BECAUSE of his, and our sin.
Every person born after Adam fell was born in the likeness and image of Adam. ALL humans after the fall are in need of a new "born again" Spirit. That's the ENTIRE reason God had to send His Son to die.

NOTHING wrong with emotions. It's CONTROLLING those emotions through the Holy Spirit we must do.
Jesus Christ has, and displayed human emotions. (Anger, sadness, etc...)

Whoever said it was? You are erecting a number of strawmen.

Nay, I have posted enough scriptures over the correct position that people are not born sinful nor with a sin propensity and also where their sin comes from which is that they learn sin from the world and take the world's side over God. The other two options give the implication that men are guilty for their parents' sins and even would blame God making a grave error in saying that he made them sinful or with a temptation to sin. Let's not ignore Ezekiel 18 either because the Israelites in the Bible held this same doctrine of Total Depravity and God sent Ezekiel to correct them. It is indeed the most pertinent and direct chapter directly against this strange doctrine.

Ezekiel 18
1 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.