Torah Observant Christians.

[eternally-gratefull]

its like most belief systems, there are various forms of them.

when we think everyone believes what one person says, we risk what occured a lot in CC, such as well he is a dispensationsal so he MUST believe this

and that not how should,be,this is proof

I am dispensational and I know so many people who are also. And never heard many of the things said in that chart.

so if you would think because I am dispensational I believe those things, you would be wrong,

that has caused most of the arguments I have witnessed in my years here

especially when it comes to osas, and dispensational thinking, (osas people are automatically assumed to be calvinist, which is far from the truth

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The commands of God caused Moses face to shine so brightly after meeting with God and receiving them that he veiled his face.
Paul declared the laws of God to be spiritual, holy, just and good. The Book of Romans chapter 7.

No, meeting God caused his face to shine so much.
the commands were written in stone, and moses declared the children of Israel must obey all, failure to do so would cause a curse.

 

[Whispered]

No, meeting God caused his face to shine so much.

That's what I said. God's shining upon Moses while meeting with him and giving the commands.

 

[Whispered]

I could care less what you believe

i said most of the things were wrong, and they were

ther are many versions of dispensational

if you Read my rebuttles I even admitted some did

I have read your rebuttal to the Dispensationalism/Covenant Theology chart I posted. You did not say most were wrong.
Perhaps you should go back and read what you actually said in post #259.

The dispensational aspect of this chart is in error

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's what I said. God's shining upon Moses while meeting with him and giving the commands.

The commands of God caused Moses face to shine so brightly after meeting with God and receiving them that he veiled his face.
Paul declared the laws of God to be spiritual, holy, just and good. The Book of Romans chapter 7.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have read your rebuttal to the Dispensationalism/Covenant Theology chart I posted. You did not say most were wrong.
Perhaps you should go back and read what you actually said in post #259.

We must have different definitions of things

if one or two things about any chart are wrong, the chart is wrong

i showed how many of the things in the chart are not believed by many (at least everyone I know which is a lot) which means as a whole, the chart was wrong. Or in error

you have not proven me wrong

in fact the only example you used I have never heard in my life,

which means not all dispensationalsim believe it

that alone proves the chart is in error

 

[Whispered]

We must have different definitions of things

if one or two things about any chart are wrong, the chart is wrong

i showed how many of the things in the chart are not believed by many (at least everyone I know which is a lot) which means as a whole, the chart was wrong.

We have no such thing. Making a declaration that the Dispensational aspect of this chart is in error is accusing against the whole chart.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We have no such thing. Making a declaration that the Dispensational aspect of this chart is in error is accusing against the whole chart.

So you just want to argue?

if the whole chart is not right of every person who is dispensational it is in error

at that I am done arguing

it was stated basically as a dispensational I believe everything on that chart, which is false and misleading

and as such, it is in error. And it is bearing false witness

those are the facts

 

[Whispered]

So you just want to argue?

if the whole chart is not right of every person who is dispensational it is in error

at that I am done arguing

it was stated basically as a dispensational I believe everything on that chart, which is false and misleading

and as such, it is in error. And it is bearing false witness

those are the facts

I'm not arguing. You are simply demonstrating your inability to remain in a consistent position in your arguments about Dispensationalism.
And when it is point out to you that you are so, you think someone wants to argue.
No, I'm someone that would like you to keep a consistent point in your posts. Not say one thing, then say the opposite, then play the victim. That's childish.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not arguing. You are simply demonstrating your inability to remain in a consistent position in your arguments about Dispensationalism.

i have been consistent since I first rejected that chart. And I still reject it.

And when it is point out to you that you are so, you think someone wants to argue.
No, I'm someone that would like you to keep a consistent point in your posts. Not say one thing, then say the opposite, then play the victim. That's childish.

lol
whatever

i said the chart was wrong

i showed why (proving it)

and I have not changed,

Good day maam

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's what I said. God's shining upon Moses while meeting with him and giving the commands.

The commands of God caused Moses face to shine so brightly after meeting with God and receiving them that he veiled his face.
Paul declared the laws of God to be spiritual, holy, just and good. The Book of Romans chapter 7.

Ps..This is what inconsistency looks like

me saying the chart is wrong, or part of the chart is wrong still means the chart is wrong for every dispensational believer I know. As I explained

 

[TooFastTurtle]

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When you say Torah, what are you referring to and you can elaborate? Answer this question so I can respond accordingly.

I am referring to what Torah is, which is the 5 books of Moses.

 

[Whispered]

Ps..This is what inconsistency looks like

me saying the chart is wrong, or part of the chart is wrong still means the chart is wrong for every dispensational believer I know. As I explained

You're right, that is what inconsistency looks like. Perhaps now that you realize your fault in that regard you'll strive to stop.
It would be a great deal easier in these type discussions.

 

[Whispered]

i have been consistent since I first rejected that chart. And I still reject it.


lol
whatever

i said the chart was wrong

i showed why (proving it)

and I have not changed,

Good day maam

You're now stating a falsehood. As is in evidence in your own words. I always have a good day. I hope you do as well.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

TooFastTurtle, the Torah (referring to the first 5 books) talks about Law, Commandments, Ordinances, Statutes and charges which I believe before God wrong them down many were verbally given to men life Abraham. Why do I say that? If you read Genesis 26:5, God made a statement what Abraham who is a man of faith kept.

What God gave had to do with obedience, though Abraham lived by faith he kept what God asked of him. Genesis 18:8 tells us that Abraham took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate. It could be safe to cross-reference this passage with the ordinance that God gave Israel to not seethe a kid in his mother's milk and if this is the case, then how did Abraham know, remember that he prepared the calf separately.

I believe that the law wasn't given verbally before it was given on tablets of stones and if you read Jeremiah 31, God said that he would make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, but not like the one that he made with their fathers. How did he make them with their fathers? On tablets of stones. This prophecy is fulfilled in Hebrews 8.

The question is, what new commandment did he give to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah that he stored in their minds and written in their hearts? I believe this was the Ten Commandments and through the time of Yeshua it appears that they was talking about the Ten Commandment. The law of sacrifice was fulfilled in Yeshua. If you read the story of the teacher of the law testing Yeshua, Yeshua commended him for reading the law of the law right because the two commandments, loving the Lord God with all and loving thy neighbor as thyself fulfills the law.

Let me make this clear, we are save by grace and through the faith of Yeshua and justified by faith alone apart from the law and we are made God's righteousness in Yeshua not through the lord, but we are to be obedient to the law of God, Yeshua only took the curse of the law to the cross and not the blessing of the law for in them man prosper in all his way when he delights and meditate in them.
The Scriptures tell us that if we walk after the Spirit, the Spirit will fulfill the righteousness of the law, so all one has to do is walk after the Spirit seeking for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, the Spirit of God will fulfill the righteousness of the law. Let me make this also clear, one's relationship is not with the law, but with God in Yeshua. Believe the have been condition to believe that if you are obedient to the law you are working, but is one working if he is obedient to the law of loving God with all and loving thy neighbor as thyself? You cannot say one is working and the other is not.

I am not here to convince, that is not my job, I just put it on the table and it is between you and God through prepare and to learn what is so important that God was clear when he first spoke in know thing one does not go into the Scriptures trying to interpret God's word to fit their view.

I do agree that many Torah observers appears to make the law part of salvation and forget that many laws were fulfilled in Yeshua.

Thank you for responding and this is a discussion, not a debate.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're now stating a falsehood. As is in evidence in your own words. I always have a good day. I hope you do as well.

So I think I heard you say you Believe OSAS. Am I correct?

 

[Lanolin]

The discussion I started with regards to “Tithing” was interesting to say the least. This brings me to another topic I would like to hear from people on. Torah observant Christians. Of course there plenty of scripture in the NT contrary to this brief, but I would certainly like to heard others views on the subject. Enjoy!

View attachment 209824

Well, having gone to a few messianic congregations gatherings I dont think its compulsory for them either but they just used to tradition that die hard. (eg eating kosher foods)
I think it doesnt make anyone holier than a gentile Christian who is saved.

 

[Whispered]

Maybe knowing what we're talking about when we say, Torah, would help? Some say the Torah, and believe, refers to the Pentateuch = "five fold volume", aka/"the five scrolls", or, the first five books of the old testament. (The Books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy). Others believe the Torah the entire corpus of the Hebrew Bible(24 books called the Tanakh) and divided into three parts. The law,(the first five books)Torah, the teachings and the prophets.

Tanakh, is an acronym for the Hebrew Bible's contents. T=Torah , N=Nevi’im=the Prophets= Ketuvim=Writings
The law of God is found in the first five books, the Pentateuch=the five scrolls.
The law is divided into three sections. The civil, the ceremonial, and the moral.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Well, having gone to a few messianic congregations gatherings I dont think its compulsory for them either but they just used to tradition that die hard. (eg eating kosher foods)
I think it doesnt make anyone holier than a gentile Christian who is saved.

---------------------

Regarding "tithing"... the tithes were to be given to the Levi priest and the tithes was not a monetary offerings. So, the question that we have to ask, do we have to pay tithes today? No! Tithes were given to the Levi priest! But then Abraham paid 10% to the high priest Melzeisedec, but the 10% he gave was of the spoils and not monetary, but remember that Abraham gave it to him willingly. Yeshua was a high priest after the order of Melzeisedec, so it is okay to give a tithes, but the question is who are you going to give it to, the church or the pastor? In my opinion, it should be given the pastor and it is up to the individual how much he wants to give, Abraham decided hi wanted to give 10%, but it is up to the individual and I believe that God want's you to clear your bills before you willingly give tithes.

Alms and offerings should be given to pay for the bills and maintenance. One can also, set a yearly salary for the pastor and it should be no more than $100K, every year thereafter, he can get an increase to help with the cost of living.

Above is my opinion, I put it on the table and one decides if they want to ruminate upon it.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Maybe knowing what we're talking about when we say, Torah, would help? Some say the Torah, and believe, refers to the Pentateuch = "five fold volume", aka/"the five scrolls", or, the first five books of the old testament. (The Books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy). Others believe the Torah the entire corpus of the Hebrew Bible(24 books called the Tanakh) and divided into three parts. The law,(the first five books)Torah, the teachings and the prophets.

Tanakh, is an acronym for the Hebrew Bible's contents. T=Torah , N=Nevi’im=the Prophets= Ketuvim=Writings
The law of God is found in the first five books, the Pentateuch=the five scrolls.
The law is divided into three sections. The civil, the ceremonial, and the moral.

-------------------

Torah also means instruction, but I am speaking about the Ten Commandment, I believe they are not done away with, I believe they are now stored in the minds and written in the hearts which is the new covenant.