Torah Observant Christians.

[posthuman]

If the law has zero importance to the Christian

where have i ever said that? by all means, search my entire post history.

please refer yourself to your own post #162.

 

[Whispered]

i'm sorry, where did that happen?

let's restate my argument once again for the sake of the simple:

breaking one part of Torah, even the least, makes you guilty of all ((James 2:10))
Torah requires things that are impossible to keep without the temple
therefore no one keeps Torah, and anyone who says they do is hypocritical.

i said this, and you told me it was unscriptural - see post #154 - but you never substantiated your accusation; you just made it, without basis.

Blik agrees with me:




and you agree with me:




so what is this unspecified error you are now accusing me of?

"for the sake of the simple. " My how you think to assault members of Christ's church and yet when you are proven not to know scripture, you claim to be the one attacked. When you attack as a matter of course.
What a tragedy you are. My prayers surround you in this life. May you awaken and take the word of God seriously so as not to be surprised by its facts once you are gone. Pitiable. Truly, pitiable. God have mercy.

 

[posthuman]

"for the sake of the simple. "

it is exactly like you said in post #164, maybe not everyone reading realizes the Torah is the 5 books of Moses.

maybe posts #117 and #118 are not as clear and rudimentary to understand -- after all ((see post #154)) some people have apparently read those and, not knowing the scripture, mistakenly thought they were purposeful contradictions of scripture.

when you are proven not to know scripture

i'm sorry where was that?

 

[Whispered]

not sure it has been said before, (have not read whole thread)

Gal 3: 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

there is no need to Go back to the tutor if the tutor has completed its job (led us to salvation)

that’s the purpose of the law

whoever is trying to put themselves under the law to follow It?

well paul tells us about them also....

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed iseveryone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

I think for those who impart directly or by allusion that the law of God in any respect no longer applies to the Christian today would have to rectify Jesus' admonitions concerning the law. His reiterating the law, and Hi statement that, if we love Him we will keep His commandments.

 

[posthuman]

I think for those who impart directly or by allusion that the law of God in any respect no longer applies to the Christian today would have to rectify Jesus' admonitions concerning the law. His reiterating the law, and Hi statement that, if we love Him we will keep His commandments.

kindly explain why Paul says in Galatians that accepting circumcision ((a clear commandment in Torah made of jots and tittles)) is tantamount to denying Christ & falling from grace, and doing so obligates one 'to keep all of Torah' -- why is Paul saying that as if it is not a good thing?

do you have an understanding of scripture that is able to explain this?

 

[posthuman]

I think we have a temple and blood for sacrifice but not in the way you repeat that thought.

then this is not in the way that it was given through Moses, because those who were given Torah were given it to be carried out literally and physically as it was given. that's my point, and you understand and agree with it - it is what i came here to add to this thread: see posts #117 & 118.
what you're calling "in the way you repeat that thought" is in the way that Moses gave the Torah. without any jot or tittle removed or set aside or allegorized or spiritualized or regarded merely as non-literal poetry. yes it is metaphor and speaks of Christ -- all of it. but until Christ came God expected it to be literally observed: that is how God gave it through Moses, to be literally observed.

something RADICALLY changed when Christ came, died, rose, and ascended.

the fundamental difference you may be having with me is if you believe that it's legitimate to not literally keep Torah and simultaneously say of yourself that you keep Torah. i believe that if you do not keep Torah, then you are not Torah observant. Jesus Christ was the last human to have kept Torah in all of history; no one has observed Torah since, and no one can. it's just as wrong to call giving in the church 'tithing' as it is to call the way you live 'Torah observant'

 

[posthuman]

Jesus did away with the sacrificial laws when He died on the cross as the offering for the sins of all people.
And during his ministry He said, if you love me keep my commandments.

It would be odd for Jesus to say that if he meant to say, His laws no longer apply.

what's that you say? done away with? jots and tittles?

obviously His commandments do not include making further sacrifices of bulls, goats sheep or birds.
those are things clearly part of Torah.
so, obviously His commandment is not that we live under Torah.

​

unless, that is, you disagree with James 2 & Matthew 5, and you believe you are still keeping Torah while deleting part of it.
i wouldn't agree with that. i agree with James, and with Christ, and with whomever this was written through:

in the saying 'new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
(Hebrews 8:13)​

​

knowledge of that verse right there is a key to all this. the new is not the old.

 

[posthuman]

Jesus did away with the sacrificial laws when He died on the cross as the offering for the sins of all people.
And during his ministry He said, if you love me keep my commandments.

It would be odd for Jesus to say that if he meant to say, His laws no longer apply.

• Jesus did away with the sacrificial laws when He died on the cross as the offering for the sins of all people.
  • yes
• And during his ministry He said, if you love me keep my commandments.
  • yes
• It would be odd for Jesus to say that if he meant to say, His laws no longer apply.
  • you just said that the sacrifices - part of Torah - were done away with.
  • if those are part of His commandments then you just said, yourself, that His laws no longer apply
  • only two possibilities:
    1. Torah is what He is referring to when He says 'keep My commandments'
       • if sacrifices are done away with, He's saying His commandments no longer apply
         • contradiction
    2. Torah is not what He is referring to when He says 'keep My commandments'
       • no contradiction
  • i'm going to go with #2

 

[Blik]

exactly as i have been saying..

Then said He, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second.​

(Hebrews 10:9)​

​

there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins ​

(Hebrews 10:26)​

​

to the Israelites under Moses even though these things were symbolic they were most certainly to be literally, physically, corporeally carried out and physically, literally, actually performed. the commandment to circumcise males for example is 100% a commandment to do this in the flesh, physically, literally. it has a meaning, and it functions as a symbol, yes. but if you were a male and you were uncircumcised in the flesh then you are absolutely not in any way shape or form 'Torah observant' no matter how much you may appeal to it being 'symbolic'

i didn't 'twist out of shape' anything you said -- you replied to whether or not you physically, literally, actually carry out the things in Torah that are literally, physically, pactually commanded to do by saying 'they are symbolic' and so you don't actually do them. that is confession on your part that you do not keep Torah, which has been my argument from the beginning. you might keep parts of Torah, but you brush aside many jots and many tittles saying they are only symbols, no longer actual commands - which again, has been my statement from the beginning. posts #117 & #118.

no one who competes in a race of 10 miles, and only runs 3, saying 'the other 7 are symbolic i ran them in my heart' can legitimately say they finished the race. that is the situation with Torah. no one keeps it. it is not possible to keep it; see the argument of the unbelieving Jews in Whispered's link: they confess they do not keep Torah because there is no temple therefore it is impossible that they keep Torah. the unbelieving Jews at least do not pretend they are keeping it; they know they are not. at least they are not hypocrites in that sense - no, they know, and they weep.

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming -- not the realities themselves. ​

(Hebrews 10:1) ​

​

These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. ​

(Colossians 2:17) ​

this is what a Christian keeps: the light, not the darkness. the substance, not the shadow. the former things are passed away, and the morning has broken

After Christ came in the flesh and was crucified and the Holy Spirit was given to all as a way for God to communicate with us, does scripture ask the we "physically, literally, and in the flesh" carry out this part of the Torah instructions? If we believe in scripture, are we told to do this? No. Torah observance means that we listen to what God says. If we listen and obey then we do not physically carry out these instructions but according to the prompting of the Holy Spirit we carry out what the Holy Spirit tells us about these instructions. We honor what God said in His circumcision instructions and we carry out circumcision in the spirit as the Holy Spirit tells us, we honor the spiritual meaning of the diet instructions, but as scripture tells us we can put in our stomachs all food. We can mix fibers, but as the spirit leads us we respect all God has made without reconstructing His creation.

 

[posthuman]

After Christ came in the flesh and was crucified and the Holy Spirit was given to all as a way for God to communicate with us, does scripture ask the we "physically, literally, and in the flesh" carry out this part of the Torah instructions? If we believe in scripture, are we told to do this? No. Torah observance means that we listen to what God says.

"in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son"

"the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth through Jesus Christ"

"by saying 'new' He has made the first obsolete"

listening to Christ is not living under Torah.

Torah observance means observing Torah.
i see now that you just have a confusing private definition contrary to the plain meaning.
i think you are abusing language, and you should rather call it what it is. whoever is in Christ is not under the law.

If we listen and obey then we do not physically carry out these instructions but according to the prompting of the Holy Spirit we carry out what the Holy Spirit tells us about these instructions. We honor what God said in His circumcision instructions and we carry out circumcision in the spirit as the Holy Spirit tells us, we honor the spiritual meaning of the diet instructions, but as scripture tells us we can put in our stomachs all food. We can mix fibers, but as the spirit leads us we respect all God has made without reconstructing His creation.

what you are describing is not being under the law.
what i am saying is that's not being 'Torah observant' -- though i understand that you will regrettably go on calling it that.

 

[Blik]

"in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son"

"the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth through Jesus Christ"

"by saying 'new' He has made the first obsolete"

listening to Christ is not living under Torah.

Torah observance means observing Torah.
i see now that you just have a confusing private definition contrary to the plain meaning.
i think you are abusing language, and you should rather call it what it is. whoever is in Christ is not under the law.



what you are describing is not being under the law.
what i am saying is that's not being 'Torah observant' -- though i understand that you will regrettably go on calling it that.

Is the Torah of God? Does God speak in the Torah, is it scripture or is it not scripture? You are saying that observing God's word is something we can -pick and choose from and observe only what we personally as a human decide is God's word. I don't believe that is the right way to observe the words of the Lord.

 

[posthuman]

Is the Torah of God? Does God speak in the Torah, is it scripture or is it not scripture? You are saying that observing God's word is something we can -pick and choose from and observe only what we personally as a human decide is God's word. I don't believe that is the right way to observe the words of the Lord.

i'm not saying we get to pick-and-choose from the Bible.
that is what a person who says they keep Torah, but only keeps some parts & not others does. a person who says, 'this part of Torah is right for me, but this part isn't' is the person who picks and chooses. i am not the person who says that.
i am not saying that, and i have not ever said that. being in Christ, i am not under the Torah, any of it. i have died to the law - to every single jot and to every single tittle, and i am made free in Him. i was guilty of all of it, and He took away every ounce of its burden, releasing me from the curse of it. i am under the law of Christ, not under the law of Moses. if Christ says 'love your neighbor' does it make me under Moses just because this word is also written in Deuteronomy?

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

And furthmore, Jesus did not say anything about doing away with the Sabbath. In fact, the Apostles and Jesus kept the Sabbath, and the Apostles did so after Jesus departed to Heaven.
If the Sabbath mattered not after Jesus, they would have known this because Jesus would have taught it so. Instead, Jesus admonished, if you love me keep my commandments. And this after He clarified that the Sabbath was made for us, not we for the Sabbath.
I think many anti-Sabbath people ignore that part, or have not actually read it in the scripture.
I'd also think that those who should actually be under scrutiny are the one's that are so upset people honor the Sabbath.

Why would anyone be upset by that? Really.
Especially if they go to church on Sunday.
Makes no sense.

-----------------

A lot of people are not construing the passage when the teacher of the law questioned Yeshua on the Law. If you read it, after he questioned him then Yeshua asked him, how interpret thou the law (referring to the Ten Commandments)? The teacher of the law responded to him the following, by keeping two commandment, loving God with all and loving thy neighbor as thyself. Yeshua responded well said. So, if one can keep the 10 commandments by keeping two commandments why would God do away with the commandments?

It appears as if many are adding animal sacrifices to the Ten Commandment to support their view, but this is because they interpret the Scriptures to fit their distorted view. We know that Yeshua did the sacrifice once and for all and there is no need for animal sacrifices.

The Romans distorted the word of God, they did away with the Sabbath because by doing this they separated themselves from the Jews, they wanted nothing to do with the Jews. A Jew coming to Yeshua understands that even though they believe they are saved by grace, justified by faith and made God's righteousness in Yeshua apart from the law, he is still obedient to the law of God, nothing to do with the gift of salvation.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Is the Torah of God? Does God speak in the Torah, is it scripture or is it not scripture? You are saying that observing God's word is something we can -pick and choose from and observe only what we personally as a human decide is God's word. I don't believe that is the right way to observe the words of the Lord.

-----------

i'm not saying we get to pick-and-choose from the Bible.
that is what a person who says they keep Torah, but only keeps some parts & not others does. a person who says, 'this part of Torah is right for me, but this part isn't' is the person who picks and chooses. i am not the person who says that.
i am not saying that, and i have not ever said that. being in Christ, i am not under the Torah, any of it. i have died to the law - to every single jot and to every single tittle, and i am made free in Him. i was guilty of all of it, and He took away every ounce of its burden, releasing me from the curse of it. i am under the law of Christ, not under the law of Moses. if Christ says 'love your neighbor' does it make me under Moses just because this word is also written in Deuteronomy?

-----------------

Why don't you read the passage where the teacher of the law approached Yeshua with a question the law and see how Yeshua answered him. You will slowly read it with a paper and a pencil next to you, you will that the Laws of God (referring to the Ten Commandments) are not done away with. Many are using all the laws to trying to substantiate their view, but read carefully, we are talking about the Ten Commandments, not the law of Sacrifices.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

i'm not saying we get to pick-and-choose from the Bible.
that is what a person who says they keep Torah, but only keeps some parts & not others does. a person who says, 'this part of Torah is right for me, but this part isn't' is the person who picks and chooses. i am not the person who says that.
i am not saying that, and i have not ever said that. being in Christ, i am not under the Torah, any of it. i have died to the law - to every single jot and to every single tittle, and i am made free in Him. i was guilty of all of it, and He took away every ounce of its burden, releasing me from the curse of it. i am under the law of Christ, not under the law of Moses. if Christ says 'love your neighbor' does it make me under Moses just because this word is also written in Deuteronomy?

-------------------------------

posthuman, I am correcting my previous post, missed some words... Why don't you read the passage when the teacher of the law approached Yeshua with a question on the law and see how Yeshua answered him. Slowly read it with a paper and a pencil next to you and you will see that the Laws of God (referring to the Ten Commandments) are not done away with. Many are using all the laws trying to substantiate their view, but read carefully, we are talking about the Ten Commandments, not the law of Sacrifices.

 

[rily51jean]

so, you are admitting that you only 'symbolically' observe Torah -- you don't "actually" observe Torah?

you are saying, 'some of those jots and tittles are only symbolic' ?

The Torah, is the first 5 books of the Old Testament, and for many years that's all they had; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Are you talking about those books? or are you talking about the Talmud, which is a disgusting piece of work!
We can't literally live today, in the literally exact same way those people did in that time

Hello rily51jean, as long as obeying the Law is understood as something that we do 'because' we are Christians (~NOT~ to either become or remain Christians), I think obeying it is what we should be doing. Our obedience to the Law (or the lack thereof) helps us know where we are in our walk with Him, or as you said, shows us where our allegiance lies.

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - here is one of my favorite quotes about the Law of God as it relates to coming to saving faith in Christ .. cf Galatians 3:24.

​

Thank you for that quote by Charles Spurgeon, I like that. I like to think also, that the law is there to keep me out of trouble. LOL!!

 

[Deuteronomy]

The Torah, is the first 5 books of the Old Testament, and for many years that's all they had; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Are you talking about those books? or are you talking about the Talmud, which is a disgusting piece of work!

Hello again rily51jean, the Talmud (as you may already know) is made up of the Mishnah (the written "Oral Torah") and the Gemara (which is rabbinic commentary on the Mishnah). So, the Talmud is the written record of Jewish oral "Tradition".

The Jews taught that ~two~ Torahs were delivered to Moses from God on Mt. Sinai, the "Written Torah" (the Pentateuch) and the "Oral Torah" (or in written form, the Mishnah). The Lord Jesus denounced the Mishnah in the NT as something that contradicts the Written Torah .. e.g. Matthew 15:1-9, so we know that the Oral Torah/Mishnah could not be from God (like the Written Torah is).

That is my VERY long answer for, no, I am not talking about the Talmud

Thank you for that quote by Charles Spurgeon, I like that. I like to think also, that the law is there to keep me out of trouble. LOL!!

~Deut

 

[Blik]

i'm not saying we get to pick-and-choose from the Bible.
that is what a person who says they keep Torah, but only keeps some parts & not others does. a person who says, 'this part of Torah is right for me, but this part isn't' is the person who picks and chooses. i am not the person who says that.
i am not saying that, and i have not ever said that. being in Christ, i am not under the Torah, any of it. i have died to the law - to every single jot and to every single tittle, and i am made free in Him. i was guilty of all of it, and He took away every ounce of its burden, releasing me from the curse of it. i am under the law of Christ, not under the law of Moses. if Christ says 'love your neighbor' does it make me under Moses just because this word is also written in Deuteronomy?

Evidently you don't mean "keeping Torah" but keeping the rituals spoken of in Torah. So why don't you say so?

I have heard christian people being accused of believing this. I have attended a Messianic Synagogue being accused of this, even by people who have attended that church. That church believe in honoring all God speaks of, most even believe God did not cancel the feast as worship. The current christian Churches believe God did. I wouldn't be surprised if a member of that church believes some rituals should be kept but I have never met anyone or read any literature of that church who believes in this.

Any time there is an advance in knowledge there are people who fight it. Think how they reacted to Christ. The Dead Sea scrolls gave new information, this information led to the new and better understanding of the OT.

 

[posthuman]

we are talking about the Ten Commandments, not the law of Sacrifices.

if that were the case the thread would be called 'decalogue-observant' not 'Torah-observant'
i would like to know something tho:

But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers, for whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
(James 2:10) ​

which one of the 10 commandments is 'do not show partiality' ?

 

[posthuman]

Evidently you don't mean "keeping Torah" but keeping the rituals spoken of in Torah. So why don't you say so?

Leviticus isn't part of the Torah?