Tongues???

[jaybird88]

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels . . . (1 Cor. 13:1) and have not love, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling symbol . . . For he that speaks in an tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God . . . no need to rewrite scripture - tongues of men and of angels. Not up to me to figure out the how and why . . . it's up to me to operate what God has given me to grow in my relationship with him.

1 Cor. 12, 13, and 14 all go together and concern spiritual matters. These chapters speak of gifts (1 Cor. 12:4), of service (1 Cor. 12:5), the working (energizing) of (1 Cor. 12:6) and the manifestations of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:7-10). How everything is to be operated IN love and how everything is to be operated in the church.

tongues means language french, greek, latin etc. your taking the one sentence of cor 13 1 (angel language) and blending it into every accordance the phrase "tongues is used.
Paul and Jesus both agree you need 2 or 3 witnesses to establish things. if i were doing to follow a doctrine i would want another witness to it other than the one time paul uses it to emphasize the importance of love, prayer is not even mentioned in 13 1.

 

[VCO]

No, I didn't know that VCO

QUOTE: Biblically, amputees are referred to as the "lame."
. . .
Biblically, amputees are referred to as the "lame."
. . .
Only Jesus and His Apostles Were Able to Heal Amputees.
. . .
In Acts 3:6-13, we read that Peter healed a lame man.
. . .
You see, the Apostles only had this power for a short time to GLORIFY THE SON OF GOD. Once the Word of God was completed, there was no need for these sign gifts anymore.
. . ."
Why God Won't Heal Amputees

Greek NASB Number: 5560

Greek Word: χωλός

Transliterated Word: [FONT=Gentium !important]chôlos[/FONT]
Root: a prim. word;

Definition: lame, halt, maimed:--

New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5560: χωλός

χωλός, χωλη, χωλόν, from Homer down, the Sept. for פִּסֵּחַ,lame: Acts 3:2, 11Rec.; ; plural, Matthew 11:5; Matthew 15:30; Matthew 21:14; Luke 7:22; Luke 14:13, 21; John 5:3; Acts 8:7; τόχωλόν, Hebrews 12:13 (on which see ἐκτρέπω, 1). deprived of afoot, maimed(A. V. halt): Matthew 18:8; Mark 9:45.

Strong's Concordance

chólos: lame, halt, maimed​

Original Word: χωλός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: chólos
Phonetic Spelling: (kho-los')
Short Definition: lame, deprived of a foot
Definition: lame, deprived of a foot, limping.

NOW I ASK, if those so-called Faith Healers have the genuine gift of HEALING, like the APOSTLES DID,

WHY ARE THEY NOT OVER IN AFRICA MAKING PEOPLE LIKE THIS LADY WHOLE AGAIN?

https://esoriano.wordpress.com/2007/05/17/the-truth-is-god-can-heal-amputees/

 

[shittim]

Doesn't work that way, no person has "the power"
At times G-d chooses to work through a person to bring healing,
just as He chooses to draw some unto Him through the Holy Spirit.
Cessationists(sp?) have said these gifts ended with the Apostles, a quick reading of the Early Church Fathers
shows they were seeing and working with how to govern the spiritual gifts AFTER the apostles had gone
to their reward. Jesus told us in the last days beilievers would have an outward form of G-dliness but deny the
power thereof, we see that in our churches today. He also said greater works than His would they do because He went to the Father.

 

[shittim]

There is a tremendous move of the Lord in Africa where there is faith, with accompanying miracles.

 

[Desdichado]

Miracles like this?

[video=youtube;qAxGTZNVd80]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAxGTZNVd80[/video]

There is a tremendous move of the Lord in Africa where there is faith, with accompanying miracles.

 

[presidente]

tongues means language french, greek, latin etc. your taking the one sentence of cor 13 1 (angel language) and blending it into every accordance the phrase "tongues is used.
Paul and Jesus both agree you need 2 or 3 witnesses to establish things. if i were doing to follow a doctrine i would want another witness to it other than the one time paul uses it to emphasize the importance of love, prayer is not even mentioned in 13 1.

Two or three witnesses is about testimony in court and certain other contexts. It doesn't mean that God has to reveal something over and over again for it to be true. Do you allow multiple verses from the same author to serve as 'witnesses'? The Bible never teaches 'two or three witnesses of scripture.' John the Baptist bore witness of Jesus before the gospels were written. God bore witness through the works Jesus did.

 

[presidente]

VCO,

It's interesting how similar cessationist and atheists are in their thinking. They draw from the same philosophical source.

This guy is controversial for various reasons, but he makes a great point, here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7nq_L4ME94

Can you show me in the Bible where Jesus healed an amputee? Why did he leave the lame man at the Gate Beautiful. If you were a first century Jew, might you not have asked if Jesus were doing those miracles, why the lame man was still there by the temple after Jesus had been there? Would you have asked what all those sick people were doing by the pool waiting for an angel to move the water if Jesus healed a lame man there, too?

 

[VCO]

Doesn't work that way, no person has "the power"
At times G-d chooses to work through a person to bring healing,
just as He chooses to draw some unto Him through the Holy Spirit.
Cessationists(sp?) have said these gifts ended with the Apostles, a quick reading of the Early Church Fathers
shows they were seeing and working with how to govern the spiritual gifts AFTER the apostles had gone
to their reward. Jesus told us in the last days beilievers would have an outward form of G-dliness but deny the
power thereof, we see that in our churches today. He also said greater works than His would they do because He went to the Father.

AND LOTS OF CHARIMATIC SO-CALLED PREACHERS THINK THEY REALLY HAVE THE POWER, AND THEIR AUDIENCES THINK THEY HAVE THEY HAVE THAT POWER TOO.


WARNING THIS IS ONE OF THE FALSE PROPHETS THAT JESUS AND PAUL WARNED US ABOUT:

[video=youtube;bOkCGgAxHNw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOkCGgAxHNw[/video]

 

[Desdichado]

VCO,

It's interesting how similar cessationist and atheists are in their thinking. They draw from the same philosophical source.

This guy is controversial for various reasons, but he makes a great point, here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7nq_L4ME94

Can you show me in the Bible where Jesus healed an amputee? Why did he leave the lame man at the Gate Beautiful. If you were a first century Jew, might you not have asked if Jesus were doing those miracles, why the lame man was still there by the temple after Jesus had been there? Would you have asked what all those sick people were doing by the pool waiting for an angel to move the water if Jesus healed a lame man there, too?

Which philosophical source would that be? Just curious. Are we talking about a person/book or a concept?

I am a very cautious continuationist, but most cessationists I know make a case by way of the Bible and Church History.

Atheists don't care a whit about either of those things.

You could argue there is a structural similarity and I think that argument can be somewhat valid depending on how it is made. But an argument from source? You intrigue me.

 

[VCO]

There is a tremendous move of the Lord in Africa where there is faith, with accompanying miracles.

BUT the SALVATION MOVEMENT is not in the CHARISMATIC so-called miracle peddlers, but GOD is is using many to accomplish His Purposes by using NON-CHARISMATICS, like EMMY KOSGEI:

[video=youtube;I4d3QkyUKmI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4d3QkyUKmI[/video]

 

[plainguy]

Paul said ... "though (if) I speak in tongues of angels". Tongues being languages (plural). We can now only conclude that the Seraphim's and Cherubim's speak different dialects. This must be so. How else can this be interpreted ? Is Archangel a rank or simply another type of angel ? Who knows .. maybe there's three angelic dialects ? I wonder if they understand each other in heaven ? Maybe they have universal translators ? That'd be cool.

 

[maxwel]

VCO,

It's interesting how similar cessationist and atheists are in their thinking. They draw from the same philosophical source.

This guy is controversial for various reasons, but he makes a great point, here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7nq_L4ME94

Can you show me in the Bible where Jesus healed an amputee? Why did he leave the lame man at the Gate Beautiful. If you were a first century Jew, might you not have asked if Jesus were doing those miracles, why the lame man was still there by the temple after Jesus had been there? Would you have asked what all those sick people were doing by the pool waiting for an angel to move the water if Jesus healed a lame man there, too?

Do you know who gets fooled by frauds like Benny Hinn?
- Naive, overly trusting Christians who don't know their bibles.

Do you know who DOES NOT get fooled by frauds like Benny Hinn?
- Atheists.

Atheist's are not wrong, categorically, about EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE.
They are people who don't believe in God.. that doesn't mean they have no ability to reason.
My doctor is an atheist, and he's very good at doctoring.


Therefore:

1. Because of the points I made above, the parallel, and the proximity, which you're trying to draw between cessationists and atheists, in order to EMBARRASS cessationists... is not logically tenable.

An atheist is not, by definition, wrong about everything.
Your parallel doesn't work.

2. The video you linked isn't exactly a great work of either historical or philosophical scholarship.
It's not worth answering.
I don't know a single cessationist who takes his stance because of Descartes, and the rest of the video is also... well... really just not good.

3. I don't care what your views are, and I'm not here to debate them.
But for goodness sake... MAKE BETTER ARGUMENTS!!!

 

[jaybird88]

Two or three witnesses is about testimony in court and certain other contexts. It doesn't mean that God has to reveal something over and over again for it to be true. Do you allow multiple verses from the same author to serve as 'witnesses'? The Bible never teaches 'two or three witnesses of scripture.' John the Baptist bore witness of Jesus before the gospels were written. God bore witness through the works Jesus did.

the 2 or 3 witnesses can be used to establish a fact. in court, out of court, back yard, makes no difference.
2 or 3 witnesses is used to establish how a scripture is understood, not the scripture itself. churches have used this rule of thumb to keep its leaders from taking one sentence, mentioned one time, understood many different ways, applying one and only one meaning to it, and establishing it as a doctrine. in other words you dont have theologies with shaky foundations.

 

[VCO]

There is a tremendous move of the Lord in Africa where there is faith, with accompanying miracles.

Here is an example of a GROWING Church in South Africa, which a few short years ago, was just few hundred people meeting in a Tent. The Church grew very quickly, and Today the Church has it's own building and it is a Church that has a seating capacity of 5000, and they have 4 services every Sunday. I want you all to NOTICE what you DO NOT SEE in this Church, and WHAT YOU DO SEE IN THIS CHURCH:

1 Corinthians 14:40 (NKJV)
[SUP]40 [/SUP] Let all things be done decently and in order.


[video=youtube;G2oCfDtzifE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2oCfDtzifE[/video]

 

[samuel23]

Cessationist may have some things on their side but not the bible. The bible says that God gave spiritual gifts to the church and the bible has said that those gifts will not end until the "perfect has come" ,that would be when the church is with Christ. We need to keep in mind that the NT church thought that Jesus would probably return in their lifetime, therefore they foresaw no such thing as a future book of the scriptures being the "perfect to come". They did foresee the return of Christ where they would be in a perfect state and no longer need the spiritual gifts.

 

[presidente]

Therefore:

1. Because of the points I made above, the parallel, and the proximity, which you're trying to draw between cessationists and atheists, in order to EMBARRASS cessationists... is not logically tenable.

My concern was with cessationists started with the same false premise that atheists start with-- that God doesn't heal amputees. I do not accept that premise. Why would any Christian, even a cessationist, assert such things. Many cessationists just have a kind of Deist attitude toward the way God works in this day and age when the rubber meets the road, and would know better to assert that God will not, would not, and does not do such things if He so chooses. So my logic is fine. Why accept the atheist's assumption?

I did think of an example of the Lord Jesus actually healing an amputee in scripture after I wrote that. The amputee's name was Malchus, and the amputator was Peter.

2. The video you linked isn't exactly a great work of either historical or philosophical scholarship.
It's not worth answering.
I don't know a single cessationist who takes his stance because of Descartes, and the rest of the video is also... well... really just not good.

No, it is not, but we are all subject to influence of philosophies and ways of thinking that have historical roots that we may not be aware of. A lot of cessationists may have gotten some of their anti-supernatural bias from watching Scooby Doo--the cartoon in the 1960's, not later film adaptations in which they actually encounter ghosts, though we could trace modernistic assumptions to something a bit more philosophical than that.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

tongues means language french, greek, latin etc. your taking the one sentence of cor 13 1 (angel language) and blending it into every accordance the phrase "tongues is used.
Paul and Jesus both agree you need 2 or 3 witnesses to establish things. if i were doing to follow a doctrine i would want another witness to it other than the one time paul uses it to emphasize the importance of love, prayer is not even mentioned in 13 1.

All I am doing is basically taking those chapters concerning spiritual matters and reading them as a whole. There were NO chapter or verse divisions in the original text so Paul's whole letter to the Corinthians would have been read as a whole letter.

1 Cor. 12, 13, and 14 all go together and concern spiritual matters. These chapters speak of gifts (1 Cor. 12:4), of service (1 Cor. 12:5), the working (energizing) of (1 Cor. 12:6) and the manifestations of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:7-10). How everything is to be operated IN love and how everything is to be operated in the church.

I guess I should have said: How everything is to be operated IN love (1 Cor. 13) and how everything is to be operated in the church. (1 Cor. 14) . . . emphasizing the chapters.

 

[fredoheaven]

QUOTE: Biblically, amputees are referred to as the "lame."
. . .
Biblically, amputees are referred to as the "lame."
. . .
Only Jesus and His Apostles Were Able to Heal Amputees.
. . .
In Acts 3:6-13, we read that Peter healed a lame man.
. . .
You see, the Apostles only had this power for a short time to GLORIFY THE SON OF GOD. Once the Word of God was completed, there was no need for these sign gifts anymore.
. . ."

Sign gifts are said to be temporal but there are stationary gifts. Cessations of temporal gifts once done in the New Testament or the Apostolic period will never be in placed today. This ministry ceased. But there are other gifts that needs operate...

 

[presidente]

Sign gifts are said to be temporal but there are stationary gifts.

I don't know what you mean by 'stationary gifts', but show us in scripture where 'sign gifts are said to be temporal.' Where are they said to be temporal? Posters have different understandings on the forum of I Corinthians 13. What about the gift of the working of miracles or the gifts of healing. Are those sign gifts? Do yo have any Biblical basis for putting some gifts in the 'sign gifts' category and treating them all the same?

 

[garee]

Paul said ... "though (if) I speak in tongues of angels". Tongues being languages (plural). We can now only conclude that the Seraphim's and Cherubim's speak different dialects. This must be so. How else can this be interpreted ? Is Archangel a rank or simply another type of angel ? Who knows .. maybe there's three angelic dialects ? I wonder if they understand each other in heaven ? Maybe they have universal translators ? That'd be cool.

Speaking in the tongue of angels (one dialect) is simply a different way of communing with that creation us which is different than us. The angels are not subject to salvation. The gospel was not intended for that creation .They long to look into the language of salvation.

There is no secret language the spiritual truths must be sought out in parables, the poetic language of God. Without parable He spoke not.

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.