TONGUES false teaching.

[Dino246]

That's right. People who are born again can operate the other manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit as well. But speaking in tongues is one of the few manifestations that every Christian can do at will.


But every Christian has the ability to speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:7), and God wants all Christians to do so (1 Cor 14:5).

I'm no cessationist, but I find your claim regarding verse 7 completely without merit. Verse 30 states a rhetorical question "Do all speak in tongues?" The clearly-implied answer is "No." In context it is clear that the manifestation of speaking in tongues is not given to all Christians, and therefore doing so should not be used as any sort of test for salvation.

As for 14:5, it has Paul saying that he wished that all believers spoke in tongues, not God. It doesn't support the idea that all Christians "can" or "should".

 

[SophieT]

Funny.......everyone else does!

Right. You pray in tongues 'in your head'. That's what we were actually posting about

Maybe if you were not so eager with your darts, you would have noticed

 

[Major]

Right. You pray in tongues 'in your head'. That's what we were actually posting about

Maybe if you were not so eager with your darts, you would have noticed

NO!

I pray in English in my head as that is the "Language" I know how to communicate through. I have no idea how to speak in unintelligible utterances.

Darts only effect those who place themselves as targets.

 

[Major]

Some of the things you promote are examples of this. Cessationism is a lie.


You have to be the one to change your mind. Nobody can do it for you.

Cessationalisn is a Bible teaching based on 1 Corinthians 13:8-9...........
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall CEASE. whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Changing my mind is not an option. The written Word of God is the Written Word of God. HOW is it then possible to change ones mind????

Study and proper exegesis is what is required.

It is NOT IF tongues shall CEASE, but WHEN did they Cease?

Study to show thy self approved, a workman for Christ!

 

[Major]

Your belief that "those who believe" is referring only to the 11 is bogus.

God bless you my friend. Do you think that I just sit here at my desk and make goofy stuff up just to argue with people like you?????There is nothing left for us to talk about. When the written Word of God is rejected then there is nothing left.

Mark 16:14-17...........
"
Mark 16:14-17 ........
"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto THEM, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall THEY cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues"

Is that what the Scriptures say or do you think I had something to do with this Scripture 2000 years ago????

Does verse 14 say "TH ELEVEN" or does it say something else?????

How can this be so difficult for you to grasp?

The Greek GRAMMER "DEMANDS" that the word......."THEY" has an "Antecedent" and that Antecedent is the ELEVEN in verse #14.

If you do not want to do the study and work on what I said to properly confirm it, then I really do not care my friend.

 

[Major]

That's right. People who are born again can operate the other manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit as well. But speaking in tongues is one of the few manifestations that every Christian can do at will.


But every Christian has the ability to speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:7), and God wants all Christians to do so (1 Cor 14:5).

Speaking in "Strange utterances" which no one understands is done because it is the one that is the easiest to "Fake".

Now.....when was the last person YOU raised from the dead????

When was the last time you kissed a rattlesnake??

When was the last time you drank poision???

IF....IF you believe that you can speak in tongues then YOU will be able to do all the other sign gifts just as is seen on Mark 16:17-19.

 

[Major]

No. Paul did not say that elders MUST be married men with families. (Therefore God did not say that either) Nor did Paul give a reason why an elder MUST be married.

No, Paul, not God did not say women MUST not be preachers, teachers, pastors, elders or have any authority with the churches.

It is obvious that you made that up and it is not in the scripture therefore I think you might be following a man-made idea which has been popular among those that are not well read in the scriptures for all these centuries. But I will point you to the scriptures and let you read them yourself. What you said is not in the text.
Telling people that if they don't agree with your spin and commentaries on the scripture that they are not agreeing with God is an immature way to debate. Prove that your interpretation was Pauls intent, because it is not what he said. He said he must be the husband of ONE wife and that was his point. Not two, if he has two he would not be blameless. If he had none he would not be blameless. It is not immoral to be single. It is not immoral to be a woman either.

The lack of Bible knowledge continues to astound me. Do you really think that posting the 1st think you think of is acceptable????

You just said..........
" Paul did not say that elders MUST be married men with families. "

What does the Bible say...
1 Timothy 3:2 says. ...:
"This is a true saying, If a MAN desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;"

Now allow me to help you with this very difficult Scripture.

MAN = MAN, a AMALE as opposed to a WOMAN.

HE = MAN in verse #1.

HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE = The MAN of verse #1 is to be MARRIED to a WOMAN.

"One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;" = A MARRIED MAN WITH A FAMILY!

Even Stephan King could not make this stuff up!

 

[SophieT]

NO!

I pray in English in my head as that is the "Language" I know how to communicate through. I have no idea how to speak in unintelligible utterances.

Darts only effect those who place themselves as targets.

OK Look Skippy, we were not posting about English

Apparently, you don't understand that either. Insults are about the best you can do since scripture is beyond your comprehension

 

[SophieT]

The lack of Bible knowledge continues to astound me

You are a bad actor.

 

[Scribe]

The lack of Bible knowledge continues to astound me. Do you really think that posting the 1st think you think of is acceptable????

You just said..........
" Paul did not say that elders MUST be married men with families. "

What does the Bible say...
1 Timothy 3:2 says. ...:
"This is a true saying, If a MAN desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;"

Now allow me to help you with this very difficult Scripture.

MAN = MAN, a AMALE as opposed to a WOMAN.

HE = MAN in verse #1.

HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE = The MAN of verse #1 is to be MARRIED to a WOMAN.

"One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;" = A MARRIED MAN WITH A FAMILY!

Even Stephan King could not make this stuff up!

Must be blameless.... not Must be married. You twisted it.
Being blameless for not being married to multiple women. That would be a cause for blame. Being single would not.

 

[Scribe]

The lack of Bible knowledge continues to astound me. Do you really think that posting the 1st think you think of is acceptable????

You just said..........
" Paul did not say that elders MUST be married men with families. "

What does the Bible say...
1 Timothy 3:2 says. ...:
"This is a true saying, If a MAN desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;"

Now allow me to help you with this very difficult Scripture.

MAN = MAN, a AMALE as opposed to a WOMAN.

HE = MAN in verse #1.

HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE = The MAN of verse #1 is to be MARRIED to a WOMAN.

"One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;" = A MARRIED MAN WITH A FAMILY!

Even Stephan King could not make this stuff up!

If he has children they should be in subjection. It is an example. This list is not exhaustive. Many other examples could be used as to what it means to be Blameless. He is not demanding that one produce kids. Most people get it.
Try to read without preconceived filters. We all have a few.

 

[Scribe]

Since you support and practice speaking in tongues then it is no problem at all for you to then reject the Word of God where GOD says that only married MEN can be ordained Bishops.

Ha. Well that is not a biased set of filters is it?

 

[VARob]

I'm no cessationist, but I find your claim regarding verse 7 completely without merit. Verse 30 states a rhetorical question "Do all speak in tongues?" The clearly-implied answer is "No."
In context it is clear that the manifestation of speaking in tongues is not given to all Christians, and therefore doing so should not be used as any sort of test for salvation.

The context of 1 Cor 12-14 is Christian meetings, and in meetings not every Christian does speak in tongues (or prophesy). God inspires different people to do different things.

As for 14:5, it has Paul saying that he wished that all believers spoke in tongues, not God. It doesn't support the idea that all Christians "can" or "should".

1 Cor 12:7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Cor 14:37) If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Also, Paul was not "wishing" that all Christians would speak in tongues. Speaking by revelation, he said he wanted all Christians to speak in tongues. And note verse 23:

1 Cor 14:23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Every Christian CAN speak in tongues, whether they think they can or not, and God wants them to do so. Many people are waiting for God to "possess" them and somehow make them speak in tongues. It doesn't work that way. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. I know that's speaking specifically about prophecy, but the principle applies to tongues as well.

Please note that I am NOT saying that if you don't speak in tongues you are not saved. But if you are saved, you have the ability to speak in tongues (and prophesy, interpret, etc). The reason most people don't is because they do not know that they are responsible for doing it. God doesn't possess people.

 

[VARob]

Speaking in "Strange utterances" which no one understands is done because it is the one that is the easiest to "Fake".

Speaking in tongues is done because God wants us to do it (1 Cor 14:5).

Now.....when was the last person YOU raised from the dead????

When was the last time you kissed a rattlesnake??

When was the last time you drank poision???

I have done none of those things. I have never been in a situation to receive revelation to raise someone from the dead, and God gave me the wisdom not to kiss rattlesnakes or drink poison.

IF....IF you believe that you can speak in tongues

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I speak in tongues.

then YOU will be able to do all the other sign gifts just as is seen on Mark 16:17-19.

You do understand that we aren't to tempt God, right? It would be tempting God to intentionally kiss a rattlesnake or drink poison.

And for the record, the authenticity of Mark 16:9-19 is questionable.

 

[VARob]

The Greek GRAMMER "DEMANDS" that the word......."THEY" has an "Antecedent" and that Antecedent is the ELEVEN in verse #14.

Mark 17:17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

The antecedent of the "they"s is "them that believe", NOT the eleven.

If you do not want to do the study and work on what I said to properly confirm it, then I really do not care my friend.

Right back atcha, my friend.

 

[Scribe]

The context of 1 Cor 12-14 is Christian meetings, and in meetings not every Christian does speak in tongues (or prophesy). God inspires different people to do different things.


1 Cor 12:7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Cor 14:37) If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Also, Paul was not "wishing" that all Christians would speak in tongues. Speaking by revelation, he said he wanted all Christians to speak in tongues. And note verse 23:

1 Cor 14:23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Every Christian CAN speak in tongues, whether they think they can or not, and God wants them to do so. Many people are waiting for God to "possess" them and somehow make them speak in tongues. It doesn't work that way. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. I know that's speaking specifically about prophecy, but the principle applies to tongues as well.

Please note that I am NOT saying that if you don't speak in tongues you are not saved. But if you are saved, you have the ability to speak in tongues (and prophesy, interpret, etc). The reason most people don't is because they do not know that they are responsible for doing it. God doesn't possess people.

That is an interesting presentation. I think I agree with most of it, except I am persuaded that there is a baptism of the Holy Spirit in addition to being born again by the Holy Spirit, but you seem to be suggesting that the born again experience is when one gets the gift of tongues but just does not know it.

I am understanding the scriptural pattern as a subsequent experience in addition to salvation often occurring soon after salvation but not necessarily the same day. That people will often get born again, and learn about the Holy Spirit and power to be a witness and will ask for this and receive it by faith and begin to speak in tongues. This is a common experience for millions around the world.

 

[VARob]

Cessationalisn is a Bible teaching based on 1 Corinthians 13:8-9...........

No it isn't. Well...... It might be a Bible teaching, but it is an incorrect understanding

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall CEASE. whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Changing my mind is not an option. The written Word of God is the Written Word of God. HOW is it then possible to change ones mind????

You can change your mind to believe what the Bible teaches.

Study and proper exegesis is what is required.

Agreed!

It is NOT IF tongues shall CEASE, but WHEN did they Cease?

They haven't yet. They SHALL cease when "the completeness" comes. It's not here yet.

Study to show thy self approved, a workman for Christ!

I do my best.

 

[Scribe]

Speaking in tongues is done because God wants us to do it (1 Cor 14:5).


I have done none of those things. I have never been in a situation to receive revelation to raise someone from the dead, and God gave me the wisdom not to kiss rattlesnakes or drink poison.


I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I speak in tongues.


You do understand that we aren't to tempt God, right? It would be tempting God to intentionally kiss a rattlesnake or drink poison.

And for the record, the authenticity of Mark 16:9-19 is questionable.

I have not been bitten by a snake on the mission field yet, but I believe God can still divinely protect me like he did Paul. When we get involved in preaching the Gospel like he did, say in Pakistan or Israel, we could run into a scenario where someone tried to poison us and we don't feel it. Witchdoctors in 3rd world countries might try to poison the missionary who is encroaching upon his power structure over the people.

I have seen the dead raised. Preaching on the streets of Dallas a man got hit by a truck and a brother commanded that he live and he came back to life. I posted the full story in a previous thread.

All the signs mentioned still happen.

 

[VARob]

That is an interesting presentation. I think I agree with most of it, except I am persuaded that there is a baptism of the Holy Spirit in addition to being born again by the Holy Spirit, but you seem to be suggesting that the born again experience is when one gets the gift of tongues but just does not know it.

Yes. Tongues is never called a "gift" in the Bible. It is one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit. If you have the gift of the Holy Spirit (all Christians do), then you can manifest that gift in nine different ways, one of which is speaking in tongues.

I am understanding the scriptural pattern as a subsequent experience in addition to salvation often occurring soon after salvation but not necessarily the same day. That people will often get born again, and learn about the Holy Spirit and power to be a witness and will ask for this and receive it by faith and begin to speak in tongues. This is a common experience for millions around the world.

I believe that is the case for many because they aren't taught about the "gifts" until after they become born again. As you say, they get born again, THEN learn about the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dino246]

The context of 1 Cor 12-14 is Christian meetings, and in meetings not every Christian does speak in tongues (or prophesy). God inspires different people to do different things.


1 Cor 12:7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Cor 14:37) If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Also, Paul was not "wishing" that all Christians would speak in tongues. Speaking by revelation, he said he wanted all Christians to speak in tongues. And note verse 23:

1 Cor 14:23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Every Christian CAN speak in tongues, whether they think they can or not, and God wants them to do so. Many people are waiting for God to "possess" them and somehow make them speak in tongues. It doesn't work that way. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. I know that's speaking specifically about prophecy, but the principle applies to tongues as well.

Please note that I am NOT saying that if you don't speak in tongues you are not saved. But if you are saved, you have the ability to speak in tongues (and prophesy, interpret, etc). The reason most people don't is because they do not know that they are responsible for doing it. God doesn't possess people.

With respect, I strongly disagree.