To all of you non flat earthers.

[PC123]

You're going too fast for me. I thought we already agreed that the Southern Cross can't be seen simultaneously in all places in the Southern Hemisphere? Or it can now?

The dipper can't be seen simultaneously in all places in the Northern Hemisphere either
Day time, remember? We can only see stars in the dark...

Anyway, say there are two places in the Southern Hemisphere, where two guys in the different locations (one guy at each location) are looking simultaneously at the Southern Cross, and both their compasses point South.... When you say South, is it like, exactly South, or South plus/minus a number of degrees?

Plus or minus 25 degrees

I can't really explain it, except for coming up with some hypothesis invoking a transparent firmament and refraction.

Thats what i mean. U know

However, I would counter with the argument that if the Southern Cross really does sit atop a pole in the South above (below?) a globe-shaped Earth, it should therefore be observable simultaneously by anyone in the Southern Hemisphere observing the night sky, at all (night) times of the year. There are claims that it cannot, therefore (if these are true) the Earth cannot be a ball.

Im not arguing for globe earth, i was just focusing on the south pole issue on the FE model. But.

Careful how we word things... Notice you didn't mention night or day in your opening and specified "simultaneously in all places"
I disagreed with "all places" and say only where its dark. Which is what your saying now

The crux is observable simultaneously by anyone in the Southern Hemisphere observing the night sky, at all (night) times of the year. Yes thats true it is.
Your such a typical Aussie too... LOOK OUTSIDE... LoL. So lazy Aussies... Shes there every night. Its on our flag.
The southern cross isn't just Aussie... Its on Brazils flag as well, tight in the center. Cos its in their sky 24/7... Or 12/7 at night...

Ok... I reckon we're on the same page now

As discussed previously, I think there is more to the workings of the Heavenly bodies than we currently understand (whether ball-Earthers or flat-Earthers), so invoking the Heavens to prove Earth's shape often ends up in a stalemate (as opposed to directly observable, measurable evidence taken here on Earth, such as laser-light over a frozen lake).

Hahahaha... Na, im not putting it down to "the mysteries of the cosmos". We have a south pole mate. The southern cross doesn't lie...

Has that been done? The laser light?
I know there are heaps of other lines of arguments... Spotting tings off sure that are meant to bee to far is a classic...
Im not denouncing every FE model... Im denouncing any model without north and south poles...

There are flat earth models in my mind that can still adhere to the southern cross.
It could be a flat circle but with 2 poles. Or my favourite, it could be a flat diamond with poles on the tips... Doesn't the bible say the earth has corners??? So flat earth is possible still in my mind. But not this particular FE model

 

[PC123]

Per FE, Antarctica is either the 4 corners or it is like Greenland, small between Australia and South America. It used to be "between" Africa and South America, but is slowly "drifting" west. From Africa there would be no direct access to Antarctica now if it is small. Meaning Antartic is either always directly "South" and huge, or no longer South of Africa and is moving.

If one were to go with small and moving, like Australia, the SC would look the same in Antarctica. If Antarctica is the four corners, then the SC would have the same view (orbital course) at night opposite the sun during the day, as the sun. Meaning the SC would literally not even be above a spot during the day, like the sun is literally not "above" that spot at night. It would definitely not be stationary. It would literally make the largest orbit around the northern star, while the northern star would have a very small orbit at the center of the map.

So to refute, during the darker winter, the SC would always be in the "same spot" 24 hours a day. It would seem stationary because it would be part of the "universe" and not part of the firmament above the earth. Even in Canada during the summer the sun looks like it is further north than it literally is. Even on the earth perspective can be decieving as to the actual position above the earth. That is not because of either curvature or being flat.

It would seem to me that the stars change the size of their orbit path in accordance with the change of the sun's. They are not on one fixed course. The SC would "move across the sky" slighy faster than the sun does. It would also move faster in the winter time (northern hemisphere) than in the summer. That is why those in Texas only have a small window of time to daily view the SC in certain seasons.

One other point about a globe is time variance. The closer one gets to "both poles" the distance in longitude becomes smaller. For time to be equal the area near the poles would have to spin slower than the equator. This effect in reality is somewhat negated by either constant light or constant dark. Except time does not change differently as if the earth is not spinning. The fact that there is more light in summer and more dark in winter just means the sun has changed to a wider orbit, and still moves at the same speed regardless. The equal day is still the same at the equator even though the orbital path of the sun changes during the year.

God did declare the stars and the two lights to work as a clock. Genesis 1:14

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Since there is a clock in the firmament it is smaller than the earth. The widest orbit is still above Antarctica and not outside of the firmament. Of course not many people live at the ends of the earth. Not yet.

Thats all good and well. There are heaps of different lines of argument...
Mine is that there is one south pole based on the fact that there is one southern cross... Thats all

This cannot be explained

 

[EmilyNats]

I didn't know there were actually flat earthers still in existence until I came to this website

 

[Moses_Young]

I didn't know there were actually flat earthers still in existence until I came to this website

What? Not another ball-Earth believer? Tell me it's not true...

 

[Moses_Young]

The dipper can't be seen simultaneously in all places in the Northern Hemisphere either
Day time, remember? We can only see stars in the dark...

Lol. I would not intentionally invoke such deception. I was talking the night sky.

Plus or minus 25 degrees

That's quite a big range, which would allow for some distance. But as I indicated before, even if I can't explain it, I'm not so worried, as there are more to the Heavens than we understand.

Careful how we word things... Notice you didn't mention night or day in your opening and specified "simultaneously in all places" I disagreed with "all places" and say only where its dark. Which is what your saying now

Yeah. I'm not a lawyer. But I understand you may suspect that I am a lawyer. So words are important, it is true. But I genuinely was referring to night time skies. Not many have the ability to see stars in the day.

The crux is observable simultaneously by anyone in the Southern Hemisphere observing the night sky, at all (night) times of the year. Yes thats true it is.
Your such a typical Aussie too... LOOK OUTSIDE... LoL. So lazy Aussies... Shes there every night. Its on our flag.
The southern cross isn't just Aussie... Its on Brazils flag as well, tight in the center. Cos its in their sky 24/7... Or 12/7 at night...

Lol. I am not talking about Australia. But I read (can't find the source) that the Southern Cross isn't visible all year round in South America, or somewhere. If true, that doesn't make sense to me on a ball-Earth. If not true, I probably never thought to question if the author of the statement was a lawyer.

Hahahaha... Na, im not putting it down to "the mysteries of the cosmos". We have a south pole mate. The southern cross doesn't lie...

The book of Enoch talks about portals of the sun. Bizarre stuff. But so is how what we observe not matching up to all our theories. God's mysterious workings of the Heavens are beyond my comprehension, at least for the time being.

Has that been done? The laser light?
I know there are heaps of other lines of arguments... Spotting tings off sure that are meant to bee to far is a classic...
Im not denouncing every FE model... Im denouncing any model without north and south poles...

Plenty of times.

There are flat earth models in my mind that can still adhere to the southern cross.
It could be a flat circle but with 2 poles. Or my favourite, it could be a flat diamond with poles on the tips... Doesn't the bible say the earth has corners??? So flat earth is possible still in my mind. But not this particular FE model

I'm not really sure how it all fits together geometrically. But I am convinced the Earth is indeed flat. And this makes sense of what we know of water, and explains why all the oceans don't drain off the Earth around Antartica, as they would if Earth really were a giant ball.

 

[Dino246]

I'm not really sure how it all fits together geometrically. But I am convinced the Earth is indeed flat. And this makes sense of what we know of water, and explains why all the oceans don't drain off the Earth around Antartica, as they would if Earth really were a giant ball.

Wow....

The water would only drain off around Antarctica if there were a significant source of gravity "below" Antarctica (and, if you were in Antarctica, the direction would be "up"). Earth's gravity operates the same way around Antarctica as it does wherever you live.

If you put a ball in water and then pull it out, the water drains off the bottom and falls to the ground (or back in the water) because of Earth's gravity. That same gravity keeps the water from draining off the Earth in any direction, from any location. There isn't a comparable source of gravitational force at the same relative distance from Earth to draw the water off the Earth.

 

[Timtofly]

I can't have a conversation with three people trying to bring up different points all at once...
Ive been through it all now with Gary.

The only fact that im asserting is that there is one south pole.
Iv tried to explain it the best i can in my previous posts with illustrations
Sorry if its hard to understand, i tried the best i could, and thats my conclusion after looking at the southern cross for over 2 months

View attachment 228051
This FE model cannot explain how we are all facing crux to the south simultaneously
It tries to by using misinformation

Not necessarily. All are looking up at the sky. They are not looking "through the earth" at a virtual pole in the ground.

On a flat earth, one would not be looking through the earth. They would be looking straight at the pole in the ground. Except that pole would be every point to the south in a circle, the last circle available within a square.

 

[PC123]

Not necessarily. All are looking up at the sky. They are not looking "through the earth" at a virtual pole in the ground.

On a flat earth, one would not be looking through the earth. They would be looking straight at the pole in the ground. Except that pole would be every point to the south in a circle, the last circle available within a square.

Then how can we all be looking south at the cross simultaneously on this FE model???

 

[Timtofly]

Thats all good and well. There are heaps of different lines of argument...
Mine is that there is one south pole based on the fact that there is one southern cross... Thats all

View attachment 228058 This cannot be explained

The SC is always pointing south. That does not mean south is always on the same side of the map. When it is pointing away from you above Africa or between Africa and SA, it is still pointing south for them.

 

[Timtofly]

Then how can we all be looking south at the cross simultaneously on this FE model???

View attachment 228075

People at the North pole on a globe cannot even look south. They would be looking out at space. Only on a FE, can a person at the NP, see the South, in a 360 degree panorama. People in Australia can look north past the NP, and see south in the opposite direction as actually looking south. What people cannot do is look east and see themselves in the west. There is no east or west at the NP.

If one was standing on the equator, and followed the virtual latitude on a flat earth they would walk in a circle. They could not walk straight or eventually they would head south always. On a globe if one walked east in a straight line, one would eventually be at a different latitude. The test is not only a drop in "elevation" it would have to be a straight line, without any curve. On a globe an object should be right or left depending on the hemisphere as much as down under the horizon.

On a FE, an object would be in a straight line from us, but the line of latitude would curve away and back to the object. The lines of latitude on a flat earth just give us the path of objects moving in an orbit around the NP. No objects in the sky should have orbits around the SP. Not even the SC. It would orbit the NP, but always point south. The bottom star being in the furthest orbit away from the NP. The light from any object in the sky only can be seen when the orbit takes that object overhead. Stars are not that far away, according to Genesis 1. Only God knows why some appear further away than others. If that is an illusion, it does not necessarily mean God is decieving us. God created 3D. Why would not the heavens be portrayed as having depth? The heavens do not need to have all the stars look flat in the sky. Just like the earth does not need to look flat, to be flat. It has depth as well.

 

[PC123]

The SC is always pointing south. That does not mean south is always on the same side of the map. When it is pointing away from you above Africa or between Africa and SA, it is still pointing south for them.

This doesn't explain how the SC can be seen to the south in multiple directions at once...

 

[PC123]

People at the North pole on a globe cannot even look south. They would be looking out at space. Only on a FE, can a person at the NP, see the South, in a 360 degree panorama. People in Australia can look north past the NP, and see south in the opposite direction as actually looking south. What people cannot do is look east and see themselves in the west. There is no east or west at the NP.

If one was standing on the equator, and followed the virtual latitude on a flat earth they would walk in a circle. They could not walk straight or eventually they would head south always. On a globe if one walked east in a straight line, one would eventually be at a different latitude. The test is not only a drop in "elevation" it would have to be a straight line, without any curve. On a globe an object should be right or left depending on the hemisphere as much as down under the horizon.

On a FE, an object would be in a straight line from us, but the line of latitude would curve away and back to the object. The lines of latitude on a flat earth just give us the path of objects moving in an orbit around the NP. No objects in the sky should have orbits around the SP. Not even the SC. It would orbit the NP, but always point south. The bottom star being in the furthest orbit away from the NP. The light from any object in the sky only can be seen when the orbit takes that object overhead. Stars are not that far away, according to Genesis 1. Only God knows why some appear further away than others. If that is an illusion, it does not necessarily mean God is decieving us. God created 3D. Why would not the heavens be portrayed as having depth? The heavens do not need to have all the stars look flat in the sky. Just like the earth does not need to look flat, to be flat. It has depth as well.

This doesn't explain how the crux can be south everywhere at once either...

6pm... In Australia... Im looking south at the crux
4-5am... In south America... Their looking south at the crux



You haven't explained how this is possible. The cross cant be behind me and in front of me

 

[Dino246]

People at the North pole on a globe cannot even look south. They would be looking out at space. Only on a FE, can a person at the NP, see the South, in a 360 degree panorama. People in Australia can look north past the NP, and see south in the opposite direction as actually looking south. What people cannot do is look east and see themselves in the west. There is no east or west at the NP.

If one was standing on the equator, and followed the virtual latitude on a flat earth they would walk in a circle. They could not walk straight or eventually they would head south always. On a globe if one walked east in a straight line, one would eventually be at a different latitude. The test is not only a drop in "elevation" it would have to be a straight line, without any curve. On a globe an object should be right or left depending on the hemisphere as much as down under the horizon.

On a FE, an object would be in a straight line from us, but the line of latitude would curve away and back to the object. The lines of latitude on a flat earth just give us the path of objects moving in an orbit around the NP. No objects in the sky should have orbits around the SP. Not even the SC. It would orbit the NP, but always point south. The bottom star being in the furthest orbit away from the NP. The light from any object in the sky only can be seen when the orbit takes that object overhead. Stars are not that far away, according to Genesis 1. Only God knows why some appear further away than others. If that is an illusion, it does not necessarily mean God is decieving us. God created 3D. Why would not the heavens be portrayed as having depth? The heavens do not need to have all the stars look flat in the sky. Just like the earth does not need to look flat, to be flat. It has depth as well.

With respect, you don’t understand the globe model at all, and your explanation of the FE model is nonsense.

 

[surfer14]

This doesn't explain how the crux can be south everywhere at once either...

6pm... In Australia... Im looking south at the crux
4-5am... In south America... Their looking south at the crux

View attachment 228092

You haven't explained how this is possible. The cross cant be behind me and in front of me

...and if you had a super powerful telescope you could also see the crux to the south from South Africa in the middle of the day.

 

[Timtofly]

This doesn't explain how the SC can be seen to the south in multiple directions at once...

View attachment 228089 View attachment 228090 View attachment 228091

For one thing night is not an equal 12 hours in the 3 southern most points who would even be looking for the SC. At this post it is about 6:30 am in Johannesburg, 2:30 pm in Sydney, and 1:30 am in Punta Arenas, Chile. Johannesburg only shares about 5 hours of darkness with Chile. That the SC is between them in the sky should not be a problem. When Africa is seeing it in the morning waning, Chile would be just seeing it at night coming into view.

 

[Timtofly]

This doesn't explain how the crux can be south everywhere at once either...

6pm... In Australia... Im looking south at the crux
4-5am... In south America... Their looking south at the crux

View attachment 228092

You haven't explained how this is possible. The cross cant be behind me and in front of me

No it is above you. You can see it at 6pm above you?

 

[Timtofly]

With respect, you don’t understand the globe model at all, and your explanation of the FE model is nonsense.

I have several globes. I think I can understand what it would be like to look through one from a point in Canada and try to see the south pole. Perhaps those who built the globes failed to do a proper globe?

Can you explain how a perfect circle can be a straight line?

 

[PC123]

No it is above you. You can see it at 6pm above you?

Its not directly above me. Its near a horizon, and perpendicular to the crux is south...

Your facing crux your facing south
Your facing dipper your facing north
What part of that fact don't u comprehend?

 

[PC123]

For one thing night is not an equal 12 hours in the 3 southern most points who would even be looking for the SC. At this post it is about 6:30 am in Johannesburg, 2:30 pm in Sydney, and 1:30 am in Punta Arenas, Chile. Johannesburg only shares about 5 hours of darkness with Chile. That the SC is between them in the sky should not be a problem. When Africa is seeing it in the morning waning, Chile would be just seeing it at night coming into view.

And you still avoid the question... Hahaha... anyway

 

[PC123]

No it is above you. You can see it at 6pm above you?

What part of this don't you comprehend???



If your facing the crux, your facing south... Do u understand this fact?