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Three Days and Three Nights
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I don't remember where I read it but first it was Pascha on thursday and then weekend so it was 3 days and three nights since the other text says Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the whale and Jesus in the heart of the earth.
Lol oh the poster above me knows it. I should read first.
Yes, you are right. Those who deny the "high day" of John 19 being a holy convocation sabbath before the regular weekly sabbath simply are trying to create Biblical support for keeping their man-made tradition of Friday, when there is no Scripture support for that tradition. The fact that they completely deny... that our Lord Jesus said like Johah, He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 literal days and 3 literal nights, shows they have no intention of keeping to Scripture, but only their man-made traditions instead.
Y
yoninah
Guest
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
The sabbath that year is called a 'high day' because it falls within the seven day festival.
You need to show from sources that the 'Day Of Preparation' is attributable to a non-Friday - and then go on to show why Mark 15:42 that's translated 'And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath...' doesn't mean what it says.
Is there a mistranslation here? Is the there a textual problem? For Mark says that the day of preparation is the day before the sabbath (which is a Friday) and his statement is that this day was the day on which Jesus had died and the day on which the body was asked for. Notice that the verse follows the crucifixion narration - Jesus has died and, since it was the Day Of Preparation...
Friday is the day of crucifixion in the NT - until you can show conclusively that the simple **combined** testimony of the Scriptures is otherwise, you are making Scripture yield what you want it to teach.
There's a lot of that about...
Y
yoninah
Guest
our Lord Jesus said like Johah, He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 literal days and 3 literal nights
See, you're adding to Scripture there again for the sake of your tradition. He said 'Three days and three nights'. The word 'literal' just ain't there. Oh, and He also said He would rise on 'The Third Day' which has already been explained from the OT as meaning 'the day after tomorrow'. Perhaps you missed that post?
B
Buzzard
Guest
Luke 9:22
Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things,
and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes,
and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things,
and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes,
and be slain, and be raised the third day.
#1: -- be rejected of the elders
#2: -- and chief priests
#3: -- and scribes
#4: -- be slain
#5: -- be raised the third day
HINT - HINT - HINT
The sabbath that year is called a 'high day' because it falls within the seven day festival.
You need to show from sources that the 'Day Of Preparation' is attributable to a non-Friday - and then go on to show why Mark 15:42 that's translated 'And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath...' doesn't mean what it says.
Is there a mistranslation here? Is the there a textual problem? For Mark says that the day of preparation is the day before the sabbath (which is a Friday) and his statement is that this day was the day on which Jesus had died and the day on which the body was asked for. Notice that the verse follows the crucifixion narration - Jesus has died and, since it was the Day Of Preparation...
Friday is the day of crucifixion in the NT - until you can show conclusively that the simple **combined** testimony of the Scriptures is otherwise, you are making Scripture yield what you want it to teach.
There's a lot of that about...
14th of Nissan - the preparation day, the day of the crucifixion:
The 6th hour of 14th Nissan per Hebrew reckoning - our midnight that began Gentile Wednesday.
John 19:14-16
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priest answered, We have no king but Caesar.
16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
KJV
The 3rd morning hour of 14th Nissan per Hebrew reckoning - 12th hour ended at our 6 A.M., this was our 9 A.M. on Wednesday.
Mark 15:24-25
24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
KJV
Darkness over the land from the 6th morning hour to the 9th morning hour - our 12 Noon to 3 P.M. Wednesday.
Mark 15:33
33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
KJV
9th hour per Hebrew reckoning Jesus gave up the ghost - our 3 P.M. Wednesday.
Mark 15:34-37
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
KJV
At that same 9th hour (3 P.M. Wednesday):
John 19:30-31
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
KJV
At sunset - the 15th Nissan began - the "high day" sabbath - Thursday per Hebrew reckoning - Jesus' body buried just prior to this sunset:
John 19:40-42
40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
KJV
Y
yoninah
Guest
14th of Nissan - the preparation day, the day of the crucifixion
I asked you to explain Mark 15:42.
I asked you to explain Mark 15:42.
I just showed you how you misinterpret Mark 15:42 by answering your question below:
"You need to show from sources that the 'Day Of Preparation' is attributable to a non-Friday"
Mark 15:42-43
42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, and honourable counseller, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
KJV
That Scripture does not tell us what John 19:31 does. But its timing agrees with the Hebrew hour reckoning written in John 19. That Scripture mention of a sabbath is about the "high day" sabbath that would begin at sunset per John 19:31. It was not the regular weekly sabbath.
42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, and honourable counseller, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
KJV
That Scripture does not tell us what John 19:31 does. But its timing agrees with the Hebrew hour reckoning written in John 19. That Scripture mention of a sabbath is about the "high day" sabbath that would begin at sunset per John 19:31. It was not the regular weekly sabbath.
Y
yoninah
Guest
Mark 15:42-43 - That Scripture does not tell us what John 19:31 does. But its timing agrees with the Hebrew hour reckoning written in John 19. That Scripture mention of a sabbath is about the "high day" sabbath that would begin at sunset per John 19:31. It was not the regular weekly sabbath.
You haven't shown this - you've assumed this for your theory. You have to show that 'Day Of Preparation' can rightly be a label of a non-Friday. Day Of Preparation means a Friday - not a day before a convocational sabbath. Sheesh.
I can't believe this chat forum - many of you have no idea what proof is. It's all assumption to substantiate your own pet doctrines.
Let Scripture change your belief - don't bring your belief to Scripture and find what you want to believe!
K
Kaycie
Guest
If you look in Genesis the first chapter, you'll see that God considers a day to go from evening to morning- not morning to evening like we do today. So it was considered around 6-9 pm was the start of a new day.
You haven't shown this - you've assumed this for your theory. You have to show that 'Day Of Preparation' can rightly be a label of a non-Friday. Day Of Preparation means a Friday - not a day before a convocational sabbath. Sheesh.
I can't believe this chat forum - many of you have no idea what proof is. It's all assumption to substantiate your own pet doctrines.
Let Scripture change your belief - don't bring your belief to Scripture and find what you want to believe!
Sorry that the Scripture proof I showed you is not enough for you, yet there it is, proving what you asked me.
If you look in Genesis the first chapter, you'll see that God considers a day to go from evening to morning- not morning to evening like we do today. So it was considered around 6-9 pm was the start of a new day.
Correct, which is why so many get confused about those timings in The Gospel Books. But totally disregarding how God set the times for His passover per Lev.23, which John 19:31 confirms, is another thing entirely.
Kaycie,
re: "If you look in Genesis the first chapter, you'll see that God considers a day to go from evening to morning- not morning to evening like we do today."
That is incorrect if by evening you mean night time. We currently go from evening to morning to evening in defining a calendar day.
re: "If you look in Genesis the first chapter, you'll see that God considers a day to go from evening to morning- not morning to evening like we do today."
That is incorrect if by evening you mean night time. We currently go from evening to morning to evening in defining a calendar day.
sparkman,
re: "The traditional view in regards to Good Friday - Resurrection Sunday is consistent with Scripture, considering that the idiomatic use of the 'third day' implies the day after tomorrow."
But was it common idiomatic usage? That is the operative word for the purpose of this topic.
re: "The traditional view in regards to Good Friday - Resurrection Sunday is consistent with Scripture, considering that the idiomatic use of the 'third day' implies the day after tomorrow."
But was it common idiomatic usage? That is the operative word for the purpose of this topic.
With the new year upon us, maybe there will be someone new looking in who knows of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.
S
sparkman
Guest
With the new year upon us, maybe there will be someone new looking in who knows of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.
Here are some. I won't elaborate on them extensively.
1. Luke 13:32-33
2. Lev 7:16-17
3. Esther 4:16, 5:1-8
4. Gen 42:17,18
5. I Samuel 20:12
6. Acts 27:18,19
7. Exodus 19:10,11
Any way you go about it, though, we know Christ was crucified on the Preparation Day, which was synonymous with Friday, and was resurrected Sunday, so we know that he was in the grave part of Friday, all of Saturday, and part of Sunday. That particular Sabbath was also a high day, the first day of Unleavened Bread. My understanding is that the phrase "high day" refers to the coincidence of a Holy Day with a Sabbath (John 19:31). Armstrongites, which I was a part of, claimed that the "high day" referred to the beginning and end day of the multiple-day festivals, but I find evidence for that to be lacking, and even if it was true, sabbaton definitely has a weekly context, so their argument does not hold up...in fact sabbaton is translated as "week" so there is no mistake that it has a weekly context in Greek.
I was indoctrinated into the Wednesday - Saturday view as a Sabbathkeeper. My biggest issue with those who hold this view are those who claim that other Christians are in error over it, and try to impugn their integrity, as well as the integrity of church leaders in the past. In fact, many go so far as to consider normal evangelical Protestants to be part of the Great Prostitute of Revelation 17, and to be unbelievers or following a paganized version of Christianity. I don't really care if someone thinks that the other chronology is correct, but the ones who hold the "Great Prostitute" view are the ones I'm concerned with. They are serving the cause of Satan in slandering and accusing other Christians over minutae.
Most of their faulty interpretation of Revelation 17 comes from theological dunces like Alexander Hislop, about four generations removed from him. Their teachers were likely affected by Hislop, whether they know it or not. In addition, I am pretty sure the view of Revelation that most evangelicals hold is in error, and that the Great Prostitute was actually the Jewish nation, that was judged by God in the events preceding the destruction of the Temple in AD70.
I think the other view really only rests on their view of one Scripture, that seems to point to a 72 hour time period (Matthew 12:40), while the vast majority of Scriptures relating to this event nicely fit into the "third day" view (Matt 16:21, 17:23, 20:19, 26:61, 27:40, 27:64, Mk 9:31, 10:34, 14:58, 15:29, Luke 9:22, 13:32, 18:33, 24:7, 24:21, 24:46, John 2:19, 2:20, Acts 10:40, I Cor 15:4).
I don't form doctrinal understanding based on one Scripture which is so similar in terms of wording that it is immaterial, and in addition, I seriously consider the weight of church history. The church has been wrong on some topics, such as justification by faith alone, but I would seriously consider the weight of church history first before taking a radical view in opposition to the weight of church history.
Some would call that following the "doctrines of men" but usually the same accusers in this regard have their own traditions which are not biblical. In addition, they teach much greater problematic doctrines. With the Armstrongites, they taught that they were going to be fully God in the resurrection and that they were the only true church; everyone else was unsaved. So, on topics like this, I also consider the overall reputation of groups making such claims.
For a fuller study on this topic, I recommend Ralph Woodrow's book "Three Days and Three Nights". Ralph held the Wednesday - Saturday view and then reversed himself on this view. He also promoted Alexander Hislop's works in books he wrote, and reversed his view on the soundness of Hislop's theology in a book called The Babylon Connection? He also held the view that Easter was pagan in origin, and reversed that after more careful study.
His books are available here:
Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association
Cults such as the Armstrongites (my former fellowship) used Ralph's previous books to support their bad teachings. The current books basically refute his teachings on those subjects.
Many groups such as Hebrew Roots Movement groups were affected by Armstrongism; some of the founders of the movement were previous Armstrongites.
The attitude of those who make such a big deal about minor things like this is that they are straining at gnats and swallowing camels.
Matt 23:24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
I was one of them, so I try to undo some of the damage by refuting their foolishness and showing that the other view can be substantiated solidly, so that some perhaps will see the folly of their ways and not perpetuate the same nonsense.
sparkman,
re: "Here are some. I won't elaborate on them extensively. 1. Luke 13:32-33 2. Lev 7:16-17 3. Esther 4:16, 5:1-8 4. Gen 42:17,18 5. I Samuel 20:12 6. Acts 27:18,19"
I'm afraid I don't see where any of those scriptures show where a daytime and/or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred.
re: "Here are some. I won't elaborate on them extensively. 1. Luke 13:32-33 2. Lev 7:16-17 3. Esther 4:16, 5:1-8 4. Gen 42:17,18 5. I Samuel 20:12 6. Acts 27:18,19"
I'm afraid I don't see where any of those scriptures show where a daytime and/or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred.
sparkman,
re: "Any way you go about it, though, we know Christ was crucified on the Preparation Day, which was synonymous with Friday..."
Not always. "That the term 'preparation day' did not always have to mean the day before the 7th day Sabbath is attested to by Rabbi Samuel Lacks who states: 'The day of preparation (Greek 'paraskeue' equals Friday OR the day before a holiday' - [A Rabbinic Commentary of the New Testament]." Therefore, the preparation day did not have to be referring to the sixth day of the week. And as you know, John 14:17 says that is was the "Preparation Day of the Passover" (several translations say "for the Passover") and of course the Passover day can fall on any day of the week. So it's not a slam dunk that the preparation day mentioned was referring to the day before the seventh day Sabbath.
re: "Any way you go about it, though, we know Christ was crucified on the Preparation Day, which was synonymous with Friday..."
Not always. "That the term 'preparation day' did not always have to mean the day before the 7th day Sabbath is attested to by Rabbi Samuel Lacks who states: 'The day of preparation (Greek 'paraskeue' equals Friday OR the day before a holiday' - [A Rabbinic Commentary of the New Testament]." Therefore, the preparation day did not have to be referring to the sixth day of the week. And as you know, John 14:17 says that is was the "Preparation Day of the Passover" (several translations say "for the Passover") and of course the Passover day can fall on any day of the week. So it's not a slam dunk that the preparation day mentioned was referring to the day before the seventh day Sabbath.
S
sparkman
Guest
sparkman,
re: "Any way you go about it, though, we know Christ was crucified on the Preparation Day, which was synonymous with Friday..."
Not always. "That the term 'preparation day' did not always have to mean the day before the 7th day Sabbath is attested to by Rabbi Samuel Lacks who states: 'The day of preparation (Greek 'paraskeue' equals Friday OR the day before a holiday' - [A Rabbinic Commentary of the New Testament]." Therefore, the preparation day did not have to be referring to the sixth day of the week. And as you know, John 14:17 says that is was the "Preparation Day of the Passover" (several translations say "for the Passover") and of course the Passover day can fall on any day of the week. So it's not a slam dunk that the preparation day mentioned was referring to the day before the seventh day Sabbath.
Actually it is a slam dunk, due to the Scripture I quoted. Sabbaton has a weekly context, and is even translated "week" 7 times in the New Testament. And John 19:31 says that Sabbath was a high day.
Do a word study on sabbaton. There is a weekly context to the word translated Sabbath. For instance the phrase translated "first day of the week" is mia sabbaton.
As I have pointed out, though, the real issue is the obsession with minutae and the attempt to slander other Christians over fine details. This is the biggest factor with individuals who obsess on this issue. I personally don't care if a person holds the other view, but usually the most contentious of them represent another agenda..one that seeks to discredit the rest of Christianity and claim themselves to be superior in some manner. The biggest perpetrators of these accusations are Sabbathkeepers, who try to prove that Jesus was raised on Sabbath rather than Sunday.
In addition, Exodus 12:16 says that food could be prepared on the first day of Unleavened Bread, which is the first day of the Passover feast, so there was no preparation needed. Preparation day was about food preparation prior to the Sabbath. See Exodus 16 in this regard.