Things that jeopardize salvation

[DavidLamb]

I'm going to start with this verse and spend some time with it because the translations of some words don't given the intended meaning IMO.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21​

In 1 Corinthians the apostle makes clear that such things are not a barrier to salvation.

“9 ¶ Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (1Co 6:9-11 NKJV)

Our glorious Saviour came to save sinners.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The OP wants us to believe these are believers, born of God, who practice such lifestyles and therefore are in danger of forfeiting their salvation (as per the title) but the Gal. passage is simply saying that such lifestyles are antithetical to the Kingdom of God lifestyle. There is no talk of losing salvation in the verses quoted.

I don't know what you consider salvation to be, but I don't consider not being a part of the kingdom of God to be salvation. Paul clearly said those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In 1 Corinthians the apostle makes clear that such things are not a barrier to salvation.

“9 ¶ Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (1Co 6:9-11 NKJV)

Our glorious Saviour came to save sinners.

The key word is were, ie, they were doing those things. If they had reverted to their former behavior then they would have put themselves in jeopardy of not inheriting the kingdom

 

[DavidLamb]

The key word is were, ie, they were doing those things. If they had reverted to their former behavior then they would have put themselves in jeopardy of not inheriting the kingdom

Yes, although we still sin after becoming Christians. But I agree that if our lives display no change at all, that is fairly certain indication that we were not truly saved in the first place.

 

[studier]

In 1Cor there are nearly 100 commands issued to the Corinthian congregation. Within these I'm including what I see as Apostolic (authoritative) Summons.

• Paul's first summons is for congregational unity in speaking, in mind, in purpose - there be no schisms 1Cor1:10
• Paul's last command is that anyone who does not love (fileō - affection and close association) the Lord Jesus Christ be accursed 1Cor16
• Leading up to 1Cor6 and the command there to not be deceived, Paul has been dealing with congregational purity. In a series of commands and instructions in 1Cor5:7-13 Paul ends with judging and removing sinning "brothers" and refers to them as evil. Paul does not want anyone to even eat with such "brothers", he wants them judged, he wants them removed.
• In 1Cor6:1-8 and continuing into the verses being dealt with in this thread, Paul gives very stern and rhetorical instruction to the congregation for not having a strong judiciary to handle such matters. This leads to his command in 1Cor6:9 not to be deceived, When he says "unrighteous [men]" in this same verse he is talking about these sinning men he has said are named/called brothers who he wants thrown out and the command to not be deceived is that sinning - "unrighteous" - "brothers" will not inherit the Kingdom.

Interesting thread and title. Maybe the first in a series of such controversial Scriptures. Always a fun topic.

 

[Kroogz]

I'm going to start with this verse and spend some time with it because the translations of some words don't given the intended meaning IMO.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21​

This is why we have an interim spiritual body and later a resurrected body in the Kingdom. Our flesh produces nothing but evil and sin.

Anyone with an ounce of integrity, will admit guilt to something on the list.......Well, your flesh doesn't come with you when you enter the eternal kingdom.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

This is why we have an interim spiritual body and later a resurrected body in the Kingdom. Our flesh produces nothing but evil and sin.

Anyone with an ounce of integrity, will admit guilt to something on the list.......Well, your flesh doesn't come with you when you enter the eternal kingdom.

Totally gnostic idea that our physical bodies produce nothing but evil and sin. The fleshly body is capable of doing good when it's ruled by the spirit.

It's not a matter of having done something on that list. It's a matter of what we practice now.

btw where is this "interim spiritual body" located? I read nothing about it in scripture.

 

[Kroogz]

Yes, as you point out, it is those who "practice such things" therefore one must ask ... "were such people ever saved?"

The better question is:
Were such people ever taught the Christian way of life?

The prevalent problem in churchianity is trying to clean up the flesh, not practice sinning.

Morality will never lead to spirituality. But spirituality will always lead to morality.

Believers are left wanting in todays churches. Work, work and work. Be good. Do good things. Clean up your life......Clean up your flesh.
No wonder most throw up their hands in defeat.

IMO, we will be more shocked at who is not in heaven compared to who is.

 

[Kroogz]

Totally gnostic idea that our physical bodies produce nothing but evil and sin. The fleshly body is capable of doing good when it's ruled by the spirit.

It's not a matter of having done something on that list. It's a matter of what we practice now.

btw where is this "interim spiritual body" located? I read nothing about it in scripture.

We will never perish.
We will never, no not ever come into condemnation.
We have eternal life.
We have a forever advocate.
We are born of imperishable seed.
Nothing will separate us from the love of Christ.

Clear. Simple and not up for debate.

Do not quench the Spirit.....He would never tell us He would break His seal.........the same seal the SON has.

Live it. Love it. teach it.

 

[studentoftheword]

Things that jeopardize salvation

ONE NAME ------the Enemy to Human Kind

 

[Magenta]

Lasciviousness means licentiousness, which means unrestrained conduct leading to excess in any number of things.

I think you need a better dictionary.

 

[studier]

Anyone with an ounce of integrity, will admit guilt to something on the list

And admitting/acknowledging guilt is part of the process of abiding and progressively growing out of sin and into maturity.

I attended an interesting Christian men's weekly meeting with nearly 100 men gathering. A younger Christian suggested we get together for a meal. He was struggling with being drawn away by unbelieving friends. He had found some semblance of service and value in attending a year-long reading through the Bible. After his first year he had been surprised to have been asked to lead the next year-long reading.

So, we have a young (spiritually immature) Christian this larger group had encouraged to attend a Bible reading group who was now leading a group and was struggling with being pulled out of the Faith into old sinful patterns he really had not shed yet. I asked if he was being taught anywhere by anyone. He basically said no but in a lightly dodging fashion. I asked him if he was familiar with 1John1 and if he'd like to discuss the issue with his "friends" and his struggles and I told him it was important to understand that such "friendships" best be shed and will be shed as growth takes place.

Sorry for the long story, and there's more to it, but the end of the matter was he was getting no training from whatever church he was attending and certainly not from leading a group of likely very immature men who viewed him as a leader. In his new found status and zeal to serve and lead, he took the opportunity to turn the potential lesson around on me, tell me how valuable journaling is (which I'd seen a video on linked from the larger men's group) and he seemed to acquire an urgency to finish breakfast and depart.

There's a moral to the story somewhere herein in regard to practicing sin and not being assisted by groups of Christians - most if not all being spiritually immature - being led to believe we're qualified in some sense to be leading - all the while getting none of the knowledge of the tools and protocols made available to us for walking and growing in Spirit.

Paul was dealing with immature Christians in Corinth. They along with others who have remained in immaturity for various reasons and who have not become aware and convinced of the dangers of sin were a problem for the congregation and for themselves. Paul was dealing with it and IMO the warnings and dangers are real.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The better question is:
Were such people ever taught the Christian way of life?

The prevalent problem in churchianity is trying to clean up the flesh, not practice sinning.

Morality will never lead to spirituality. But spirituality will always lead to morality.

Believers are left wanting in todays churches. Work, work and work. Be good. Do good things. Clean up your life......Clean up your flesh.
No wonder most throw up their hands in defeat.

IMO, we will be more shocked at who is not in heaven compared to who is.

This mischaracterizes the spiritual walk, which is doing God's commandments.

The problem with churchianity is that it doesn't teach how to walk righteously. They assiduously avoid it by focusing on man-made traditions like witnessing, tithing, church attendance, not smoking, not drinking, putting up appearances of being godly rather than doing the hard inward work of being conformed to the image of Christ by walking as he walked, ie, righteously.

You have no walk with Christ if you don't practice righteousness. You're imagining something you don't have

"Spirituality" will not always lead to morality because the soul is easily deceived into wandering away from the truth and believing it has something it really doesn't have. Practicing righteousness produces Christ within us. Scripture explicitly says so

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I think you need a better dictionary.

I derived that from about a half dozen Greek lexicons

 

[studier]

The better question is:
Were such people ever taught the Christian way of life?

The prevalent problem in churchianity is trying to clean up the flesh, not practice sinning.

Morality will never lead to spirituality. But spirituality will always lead to morality.

Believers are left wanting in todays churches. Work, work and work. Be good. Do good things. Clean up your life......Clean up your flesh.
No wonder most throw up their hands in defeat.

IMO, we will be more shocked at who is not in heaven compared to who is.

I think I just provided an example of the work, work, work you speak of but not in the sense of "not practicing sinning" - rather in the sense of "serving" prematurely.

But I also think you're setting up a false dichotomy - spirituality and morality work and grow together, progressively.

As you very, very well know, some basic protocols are involved and vital. But there is a cooperation with God that is necessary, even in using the protocols, for abiding, enduring, growing, completing that I'm concerned I don't see in what seems to be this false dichotomy you're presenting.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

As you very, very well know, some basic protocols are involved and vital. But there is a cooperation with God that is necessary, even in using the protocols, for abiding, enduring, growing, completing that I'm concerned I see in what seems to be this false dichotomy.

From the beginning and for many years I was totally into the other side of that false dichotomy. I'm really surprised to be where I am at now. Before, spirituality was something always near and present, but also always something not yet fully arrived.

Now things have converged and I sense Christ within me; not a spirit, but the man himself forming within me, which I attribute to focusing on and practicing the small things he said to do. And it makes sense because he told us to do what he is. And as we do less of us and more of him, then it is no longer us, but Christ who lives in us.

 

[Magenta]

I derived that from about a half dozen Greek lexicons

The Greek lexicon word for "lascivious" is ἀσέλγεια aselgeia

It describes unrestrained lust, licentiousness, and debauchery, often involving a lack of shame and excessive,
unbridled sexual desire. It can also be translated as "sensuality," "wantonness," or "filthiness," and it's used
in the New Testament to condemn sinful and immoral behavior.

aselgeiaa s e l g e i a

• Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
• Key Meanings:
  • Licentiousness
  • Debauchery
  • Unbridled lust
  • Wantonness
  • Excess or extravagance
• 
  
• Contextual usage: The term is used in the New Testament to describe a gross form of wickedness that is
  especially sexual in nature. It can also imply a disregard for public decency or "being past feeling".

 

[studier]

From the beginning and for many years I was totally into the other side of that false dichotomy. I'm really surprised to be where I am at now. Before, spirituality was something always near and present, but also always something not yet fully arrived.

Now things have converged and I sense Christ within me; not a spirit, but the man himself forming within me, which I attribute to focusing on and practicing the small things he said to do. And it makes sense because he told us to do what he is. And as we do less of us and more of him, then it is no longer us, but Christ who lives in us.

I edited my statement you quoted to make more clear or accurate re: the false dichotomy.

I'm in great agreement with you on this convergence experience and reality.

I was raised under the same teaching being presented in this dichotomy we're addressing. In a sense there is some truth to it but it can become overextended and misleading. And this IMO is part of what the faith-alone system does - it can and does create these dichotomies.

The desire to overcome sin is real. The fact IMO from the Text is that the process is cooperative and takes cooperative work. We begin in responsive faith/obedience and this state progressively grows and strengthens under His guidance, leading, filling, energizing, teaching, training, disciplining, and our faithfully/obediently following and doing.

BTW, I laid out some parallel (not inheriting) in 1Cor6 to what you're dealing with in Gal5, intending to hit a few things in Gal afterward, but got sidetracked.

Not intending to derail you. Any constructive comments welcome. Good thread.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

BTW, I laid out some parallel (not inheriting) in 1Cor6 to what you're dealing with in Gal5, intending to hit a few things in Gal afterward, but got sidetracked.

Not intending to derail you. Any constructive comments welcome. Good thread.

By all means, please take it and run with it as you feel led. This isn't my thread. Just a place for me to explore and get some things off my chest

 

[studier]

By all means, please take it and run with it as you feel led. This isn't my thread. Just a place for me to explore and get some things off my chest

I like the "explore" comment. Part of that convergence you mentioned has become for me a more actual and experiential, real, complete rest in the basics of relationship with Him and a willingness to explore the many additional things I'd been taught along the way about His Text - exploring and letting it and Him say what it/He says without concern for the many systematized and denominational works.

Several of your statements re: gnosticism have been interesting. It was certainly a problem. It's influences it seems remain.