I'm not dismissing that as improbable, but simply keeping the possibility open that the clouds, such as in a sense of a cloud of witnesses, maybe intended to illustrate the concept of all the individual molecules of which gather to form a collective... and in this case forms such a cloud analogous of a nimbus cloud before thundering, and flashing, and pouring down in torrents.
There will be no Rapture!!!
- Thread starter Romans1012
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Interesting perspective.
Maybe I've not watched the same "movie" (depictions) that you have
, but here's how I see it:
--"the dead in Christ shall RISE first" means they'll be "bodily-resurrected first" (before then next thing in the text);
and to be "resurrected" literally means "to stand again" [on the earth] after having been physically [/bodily] dead;
Perhaps the movie-depictions cut right to the "standing on the earth again" part (in their scenes--It would be a lot to depict dead-bodies coming to life / standing on the earth again "first," and perhaps not in their budget to act out every last detail of the matter, when the filmmaker's intention is to just depict the overall point);
--the word "G726 - harpagēsometha / harpazo" (i.e. "SNATCH") doesn't necessarily carry the MEANING of "floating upward" or "ascending [visibly in the sight of others]" LIKE Jesus' SECOND instance of going up shows, which was "while they BEHELD, He was taken up" [Acts 1--Whereas, the first instance was some "40 days" EARLIER than the Acts 1 instance, back on His Resurrection Day / ON FIRSTFRUIT, per John 20:17 / 1Cor15:20 / Lev23:10-12, which WASN'T "seen" by anyone, only TOLD TO one, by Him]
(for example, see its use [G726 harpazo] also in the context of Acts 8:39... where he was taken to another location on the earth, but the "snatch" being so sudden that the effects seem to result in "saw him no longer" from that point-in-time).
Maybe I've not watched the same "movie" (depictions) that you have
, but here's how I see it:--"the dead in Christ shall RISE first" means they'll be "bodily-resurrected first" (before then next thing in the text);
and to be "resurrected" literally means "to stand again" [on the earth] after having been physically [/bodily] dead;
Perhaps the movie-depictions cut right to the "standing on the earth again" part (in their scenes--It would be a lot to depict dead-bodies coming to life / standing on the earth again "first," and perhaps not in their budget to act out every last detail of the matter, when the filmmaker's intention is to just depict the overall point);
--the word "G726 - harpagēsometha / harpazo" (i.e. "SNATCH") doesn't necessarily carry the MEANING of "floating upward" or "ascending [visibly in the sight of others]" LIKE Jesus' SECOND instance of going up shows, which was "while they BEHELD, He was taken up" [Acts 1--Whereas, the first instance was some "40 days" EARLIER than the Acts 1 instance, back on His Resurrection Day / ON FIRSTFRUIT, per John 20:17 / 1Cor15:20 / Lev23:10-12, which WASN'T "seen" by anyone, only TOLD TO one, by Him]
(for example, see its use [G726 harpazo] also in the context of Acts 8:39... where he was taken to another location on the earth, but the "snatch" being so sudden that the effects seem to result in "saw him no longer" from that point-in-time).
-
2
- Show all
There's so much symbolic undertones we really just cannot pinpoint to anything specific in some of these prophesies. Look at Ezekiel's description where so many started thinking it was ufo's and we know for a fact that's not even close. But when we see symbolic specifications we just have to take many things into consideration. Even the Mark of Beast went from the price coding off items you buy to a tattoo and now an RFID Chip implant. I believe one of those answers are correct but we won't know until it happens.
-
1
- Show all
Miracles still will happen at times today.
But not as how it took place for the apostles.
For God was using signs and wonders to have them draw people into hearing the apostles message.
The miracles and signs were badges worn by the apostles of having delegated authority from God.
They were not given simply to put on a miracle show.
Paul who had the gift of healing at the beginning of his ministry, had that gift removed from him
after the authority of Paul had been well established.
Greet Priscilla and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus. Erastus stayed in Corinth,
But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker
Where we need to be careful, is that Satan will use miracles today to draw people in to accepting
false doctrines being taught by false teachers.
As for today? We have the message of the apostles now in writing.
They have been established. No one today is to add to the Word of God.
Therefore, God ceased the miracle gifts for that purpose.
God may have a missionary partake in a miracle if its in an area of shamans, witch doctors, and the like.
But, once their authority has been established and the miracles cease?
That missionary better be good at teaching the Word of God.
In Christ ..........
But not as how it took place for the apostles.
For God was using signs and wonders to have them draw people into hearing the apostles message.
The miracles and signs were badges worn by the apostles of having delegated authority from God.
They were not given simply to put on a miracle show.
Paul who had the gift of healing at the beginning of his ministry, had that gift removed from him
after the authority of Paul had been well established.
Greet Priscilla and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus. Erastus stayed in Corinth,
and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus." 2 Timothy 4:19-20
But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker
and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my
needs. For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill.
Indeed he was ill, and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only
but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow. " Philippians 2:25-27
Where we need to be careful, is that Satan will use miracles today to draw people in to accepting
false doctrines being taught by false teachers.
As for today? We have the message of the apostles now in writing.
They have been established. No one today is to add to the Word of God.
Therefore, God ceased the miracle gifts for that purpose.
God may have a missionary partake in a miracle if its in an area of shamans, witch doctors, and the like.
But, once their authority has been established and the miracles cease?
That missionary better be good at teaching the Word of God.
In Christ ..........
-
1
- Show all
I can only speak for myself here, but I saw miracles as a young boy, as a young man, as a young adult, and now as a middle aged man. I have seen miracles happen continuously. They might not be every day because not every day do I not require or those I see or meet and know need them [in terms of what we classify as a miracle]. But in every season, trial, and the outright [that could not have happened on its own and we know it was the hand of God] I have seen them all of my life including the miracle of waking up to another day.
I personally believe miracles happen to those who use their faith. I've never really seen a miracle happen when I didn't pray to God to help me. But I have seen them when I believed and prayed to God to help me.
So the concept you have given makes no sense to me because I have seen miracles people won't believe unless they're there. And thank God there's always been people there to witness so they would become Believers.
I personally believe miracles happen to those who use their faith. I've never really seen a miracle happen when I didn't pray to God to help me. But I have seen them when I believed and prayed to God to help me.
So the concept you have given makes no sense to me because I have seen miracles people won't believe unless they're there. And thank God there's always been people there to witness so they would become Believers.
"11 God did extraordinary miracles [G1411] through the hands of Paul, 12so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and the diseases and evil spirits left them.…"
(same word is used in 2Th2:9, quoted below):
Amplified Bible
"The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] [G1411] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies],"
just saying...
[same word used in Matt7:22 also]
(same word is used in 2Th2:9, quoted below):
Amplified Bible
"The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] [G1411] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies],"
just saying...[same word used in Matt7:22 also]
He also said the enemy uses miracles too, so the fact they happen, doesn't always mean it is God at work. Signs and wonders have their time and place.
It seems to me many confuse signs and wonders like in the days of Moses, Jesus and the Apostles with God's promise to care for us on a day by day basis. The former is for unique times and purpose, the latter because that is who God is.
It seems to me many confuse signs and wonders like in the days of Moses, Jesus and the Apostles with God's promise to care for us on a day by day basis. The former is for unique times and purpose, the latter because that is who God is.
How about driving home at night.... stopping to turn onto the main road... and looking across the street where a monastery is located.
And, while looking seeing a ten story high statue standing in its yard that was not there a few hours earlier while heading to visit someone.
How did it get there?
And, when looking all the way up to see the face? You are shocked to see its alive! Living!
And, then watching it begin to instantly changing positions and location in a blinking of an eye...
while conveying supernaturally, a message to my mind.
Would that constitute being a miracle?
On my way driving home it made me realize that its not a game.
That heaven is real.
Hell is real...
And, some here think they are in creative writing class.
Creating fantasy scenarios to fit what is shown in Scripture that they do not yet properly understand.
Creating their own notions of the things in a way that they can understand, while being removed from the reality of the context.
Since they think no one really can understand it? It gives them license to make stuff up, since you have no way to prove them wrong because no one can understand what it really means.
I ask myself. What spirit is their tutor?
Its not a game.
Though, because of their obliviousness, they feel free to treat what they do as a game.
Heaven is real.
Hell is real.
Some are going to receive great rewards.
Some are going to be shamed to have it end, and realize they have lost forever their opportunity learn and grow to glorify Christ.
It feel anger and sadness to see believers thinking they are winning an argument by means of their cleverness,
to be knowing that they are sealing their fate to being a loser of the most precious reward one could ever desire.
To be told.... "Well done, good and faithful servant."
They despise corrections!
For now is the time for God to determine whom He will grant great reward and blessings,.
And to determine denial of such rewards for those choosing a negative path while in time, when they are not yet
too dangerous to impact life around them.
So, false teachings must be tossed into the arena, to see who will resort to using them for their defense and offense.
The ones who choose false doctrine are now making their bed out of wood, hay, and stubble.
Sleep tight.
grace and peace .......
And, while looking seeing a ten story high statue standing in its yard that was not there a few hours earlier while heading to visit someone.
How did it get there?
And, when looking all the way up to see the face? You are shocked to see its alive! Living!
And, then watching it begin to instantly changing positions and location in a blinking of an eye...
while conveying supernaturally, a message to my mind.
Would that constitute being a miracle?
On my way driving home it made me realize that its not a game.
That heaven is real.
Hell is real...
And, some here think they are in creative writing class.
Creating fantasy scenarios to fit what is shown in Scripture that they do not yet properly understand.
Creating their own notions of the things in a way that they can understand, while being removed from the reality of the context.
Since they think no one really can understand it? It gives them license to make stuff up, since you have no way to prove them wrong because no one can understand what it really means.
I ask myself. What spirit is their tutor?
Its not a game.
Though, because of their obliviousness, they feel free to treat what they do as a game.
Heaven is real.
Hell is real.
Some are going to receive great rewards.
Some are going to be shamed to have it end, and realize they have lost forever their opportunity learn and grow to glorify Christ.
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus
Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood,
hay or stubble their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 3:11-15
It feel anger and sadness to see believers thinking they are winning an argument by means of their cleverness,
to be knowing that they are sealing their fate to being a loser of the most precious reward one could ever desire.
To be told.... "Well done, good and faithful servant."
They despise corrections!
Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge,
But he who hates correction is stupid." Prov 12:1
God can not grant divine authority in the future to those who now mishandle their temporal authority given them today.For now is the time for God to determine whom He will grant great reward and blessings,.
And to determine denial of such rewards for those choosing a negative path while in time, when they are not yet
too dangerous to impact life around them.
So, false teachings must be tossed into the arena, to see who will resort to using them for their defense and offense.
The ones who choose false doctrine are now making their bed out of wood, hay, and stubble.
Sleep tight.
grace and peace .......
-
1
- Show all
"11 God did extraordinary miracles [G1411] through the hands of Paul, 12so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and the diseases and evil spirits left them.…"
(same word is used in 2Th2:9, quoted below):
Amplified Bible
"The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] [G1411] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies],"
just saying...
[same word used in Matt7:22 also]
(same word is used in 2Th2:9, quoted below):
Amplified Bible
"The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] [G1411] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies],"
just saying...[same word used in Matt7:22 also]
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons
in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew
you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:22-23
Kenneth Copeland comes to mind.. Benny Hinn as well.
The devil cannot cast out devils or heal the sick. Jesus made that as clear as it possible to make clear. An evil tree cannot bear good fruit.
These people will say they prophesied in His name, cast out demons and did mighty works ... there are plenty enough folks going around today saying they do these things ... but their ministries to not bear up to scrutiny ... they are liars.
The kind of signs the devil can do is like atmospheric signs, lying signs are illusions.
But God is doing miracles today there is a super abundance of testimonies to that.
These people will say they prophesied in His name, cast out demons and did mighty works ... there are plenty enough folks going around today saying they do these things ... but their ministries to not bear up to scrutiny ... they are liars.
The kind of signs the devil can do is like atmospheric signs, lying signs are illusions.
But God is doing miracles today there is a super abundance of testimonies to that.
-
1
- Show all
LOL, for one to say there will be no taking of the church when the tribulation period has not yet started is a narrative that can't be said until that has happened. You may be right, and you may be wrong. But you can't say it won't happen based on a narrative that is not true. John Darby is not the one who created the Rapture doctrine. There is no Biblical state,ent that says we are to go through the Great Tribulation period. The Latin Vulgate is the Bible that used the word rapiemur, meaning, “we shall. be caught up.”
Rev 13:7 says saints. It doesn't use the word Christians. You added that. it could be but one thing we do know is the church Jesus was speaking about in chapter 2 and 3 are not seen in chapter 4 why?
Rev 13:7 says saints. It doesn't use the word Christians. You added that. it could be but one thing we do know is the church Jesus was speaking about in chapter 2 and 3 are not seen in chapter 4 why?