There will be no Rapture!!!
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No, you've got that all wrong. Tripping right out of the gate.
Why so:
Because the DOTL is appointed.......FOR ISRAEL!
Daniel's 70th week kicks it off. Again, a prophecy appointed.......FOR ISRAEL!
We, the Church, have been snatched OUT of the time and place of Daniel's 70th week to enjoy our 7 DAY aka 7 YEAR
honeymoon at the Father's house.
Biblical scholarship is in the pits nowadays.
Fortunately, there are still lamps filled with oil to follow.
Thank God for you Mr. @TheDivineWatermark and Pastor Chronister!
I've explained... Irenaeus is DISTINGUISHING "the church" (WHEN we shall suddenly caught up from this... "THERE SHALL BE [future tense]..."), IN THAT SECTION, from "the righteous" (those saved IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs--FOLLOWING "our Rapture"--just as I've been explaining for years [see Lk12:36-37,38,40 again, "when he shall RETURN FROM the wedding"[!!!] (etc)])...
...by his (Irenaeus's) use of "WHEN" [circumstantial participle]... "THERE SHALL BE [future tense]".
The problem becomes when modern readers CONFLATE these when reading Irenaeus
(meaning, his reference to [in THIS particular quote of his] "the church / we [suddenly caught up from this (he's referencing every-day trials, etc)]" and his [DISTINCT] "[shall be] the last contest of THE RIGHTEOUS")
You've explained how you choose to see it, I will agree to that. But not many with a degree behind their name does because they are not swayed by personal doctrine. Just the truth.
Irenaeus - "...so far useful and serviceable to the just [meaning the every-day trials and aggravations he'd been referring to], as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be [FUTURE TENSE] tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."
[I showed an example in Scripture, Lk12:36-37,38,40 etc (and its parallel) is DISTINGUISHING "the Bride" (whom He is MARRYING) from "the righteous [of THOSE CONTEXTS]" (whom He is NOT MARRYING--though they are still SAVED PERSONS!) They come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and are not a part of the "BRIDE" (to whom "the MARRIAGE" itself ALONE pertains) but they ("the righteous" of THESE CONTEXTS) pertain to the MK-AGE / "wedding FEAST" / "the MEAL [G347]"--i.e. their ENTRANCE INTO *that* (at His Second Coming TO THE EARTH time-slot!) Jesus said, of that, in Jn11:26, "shall NEVER DIE"--The Trib saints who are "still-alive" at the END of the Trib, will ENTER the MK age and "WILL NEVER DIE" (see also Matt25:46b! etc), because Jesus Himself is not only "THE RESURRECTION" but also (He says there) "[AND... (I AM)] THE LIFE"]
[I showed an example in Scripture, Lk12:36-37,38,40 etc (and its parallel) is DISTINGUISHING "the Bride" (whom He is MARRYING) from "the righteous [of THOSE CONTEXTS]" (whom He is NOT MARRYING--though they are still SAVED PERSONS!) They come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and are not a part of the "BRIDE" (to whom "the MARRIAGE" itself ALONE pertains) but they ("the righteous" of THESE CONTEXTS) pertain to the MK-AGE / "wedding FEAST" / "the MEAL [G347]"--i.e. their ENTRANCE INTO *that* (at His Second Coming TO THE EARTH time-slot!) Jesus said, of that, in Jn11:26, "shall NEVER DIE"--The Trib saints who are "still-alive" at the END of the Trib, will ENTER the MK age and "WILL NEVER DIE" (see also Matt25:46b! etc), because Jesus Himself is not only "THE RESURRECTION" but also (He says there) "[AND... (I AM)] THE LIFE"]
Irenaeus also speaks of a "future" temple" (as in, a tangible structure)... and says (regarding that time and place):
"And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight [referring to both Matt24:15,16 (LOCATION!),21 and Rev12:6,14], they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: And in the midst of the week, he says, the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete. Daniel 9:27 Now three years and six months constitute the half-week."
The "saints" he is referring to here is not "us" (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--all those saved "in this present age [singular]"--who don't pertain to "THE temple" [tangible structure] being referenced in this section of his writings ... [the one talked about in 2Th2:4 and Rev11:1])
"And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight [referring to both Matt24:15,16 (LOCATION!),21 and Rev12:6,14], they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: And in the midst of the week, he says, the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete. Daniel 9:27 Now three years and six months constitute the half-week."
The "saints" he is referring to here is not "us" (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--all those saved "in this present age [singular]"--who don't pertain to "THE temple" [tangible structure] being referenced in this section of his writings ... [the one talked about in 2Th2:4 and Rev11:1])
No he wasn't.
In 1Th4, he's explaining how "the dead in Christ" will "ALSO" participate in the "shall God bring WITH [G4862-UNIONed-with] Him/Jesus" ...at His Second Coming to the earth.
(That's FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [when the "UNIONed-with" thing will occur! NOT *BEFORE* we're "caught-up TOGETHER"]... by 7 yrs!)
READ the verses before. Paul speaks specifically about those concerned about seeing their dead loved ones.
The "shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" thing refers to His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), AFTER the dead in Christ will have received their glorified bodies way earlier (same time that the "we which are ALIVE" do);
So of these things, this is the SEQUENCE (there's more, but I'm referring to these):
1) [the Lord Himself descends from Heaven, for this...] "CAUGHT-UP TOGETHER WITH THEM to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR (that's "our Rapture"--it pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [the dead in Christ who will be resurrected bodily first & the we which are alive and remain unto]--this is when the "G4862 UNIONed-with Him" takes place ALL OF US TOGETHER, AT THE SAME TIME]: "so [/in this manner] shall WE ever be UNIONed-with the Lord" [via "our Rapture/SNATCH"]);
2) [THEN] 1Thess3:13 in the presence of the God and Father of us;
3) [LASTLY] the dead in Christ shall "ALSO" (along with us) participate (per Paul's "explanation") in the "shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"... "ALSO" them... meaning, this is "how" they will NOT BE LEFT OUT OF "the plan" JUST BECAUSE THEY'VE DIED PRIOR to the time-slot being referenced in this passage... God shall also bring with Him/Jesus those who "sleep through Jesus"
(because of the previous RAPTURE EVENT at which time is our "change / "clothed upon"/"glorified [bodies]")--So Paul is "explaining" HOW it will be so...
... he is not saying that when the SPIRITS / SOULS of those who've died (in Christ) will come with Him/Jesus when He Himself shall descend from Heaven for our Rapture / the meeting of the Lord in the air.
The "unioned-with" thing happens THEN (not before that moment, as many suggest this verse means by its saying "shall God bring with him")
So of these things, this is the SEQUENCE (there's more, but I'm referring to these):
1) [the Lord Himself descends from Heaven, for this...] "CAUGHT-UP TOGETHER WITH THEM to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR (that's "our Rapture"--it pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [the dead in Christ who will be resurrected bodily first & the we which are alive and remain unto]--this is when the "G4862 UNIONed-with Him" takes place ALL OF US TOGETHER, AT THE SAME TIME]: "so [/in this manner] shall WE ever be UNIONed-with the Lord" [via "our Rapture/SNATCH"]);
2) [THEN] 1Thess3:13 in the presence of the God and Father of us;
3) [LASTLY] the dead in Christ shall "ALSO" (along with us) participate (per Paul's "explanation") in the "shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"... "ALSO" them... meaning, this is "how" they will NOT BE LEFT OUT OF "the plan" JUST BECAUSE THEY'VE DIED PRIOR to the time-slot being referenced in this passage... God shall also bring with Him/Jesus those who "sleep through Jesus"
(because of the previous RAPTURE EVENT at which time is our "change / "clothed upon"/"glorified [bodies]")--So Paul is "explaining" HOW it will be so...
... he is not saying that when the SPIRITS / SOULS of those who've died (in Christ) will come with Him/Jesus when He Himself shall descend from Heaven for our Rapture / the meeting of the Lord in the air.
The "unioned-with" thing happens THEN (not before that moment, as many suggest this verse means by its saying "shall God bring with him")
Chapter 4:13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest who have no hope.
^ Right... the DEAD in Christ will be "bodily RESURRECTED" FIRST (before we are "caught-up TOGETHER")... and this is Paul's explanation ("HOPE") as to HOW it will be so that they "ALSO" will participate in the plan of God... a part of which is: "shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him/Jesus" when He RETURNS to the earth (Rev19). They "ALSO" participate... they aren't left out of this merely because they've DIED before that time-slot came into existence.
--"and SO [/in this manner] shall WE ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (speaking of OUR RAPTURE--NOT speaking of the moment PRIOR TO our being "caught-up TOGETHER WITH them [/the dead in Christ now bodily-resurrected--at that point])
--think of it like this: the "UNIONed-with [G4862]" thing will NOT happen PRIOR TO the [us having] "glorified bodies" thing... though many suggest this is what v.14b is saying ("shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him")
--"and SO [/in this manner] shall WE ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (speaking of OUR RAPTURE--NOT speaking of the moment PRIOR TO our being "caught-up TOGETHER WITH them [/the dead in Christ now bodily-resurrected--at that point])
--think of it like this: the "UNIONed-with [G4862]" thing will NOT happen PRIOR TO the [us having] "glorified bodies" thing... though many suggest this is what v.14b is saying ("shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him")
Sure, but not MERELY that they will be "bodily resurrected" ("shall RISE first"), but the whole plan and that this is how they "ALSO" will participate in it (in particular, the phrase "shall God bring WITH [UNIONed-with] Him" at His Second Coming to the earth... which is after the 1Th3:13 in the presence of the God and Father of us thing... which is after the "caught-up TOGETHER WITH them" thing... which is after they will be "bodily resurrected" first...)
He's not saying "shall God bring WITH Him [in their spirits/souls, which have indeed been "at home with the Lord" since they died... to get their glorified bodies]" as many suggest this phrase in v.14 is conveying. It's not. The "UNIONed-with" comes AFTER the "changed into GLORIFIED BODIES" thing ("and SO shall we ever be WITH / UNIONed-with the Lord" AT THE CAUGHT-UP TOGETHER moment and not prior to it!)
^ Well, considering both its own CONTEXT (1Th3:13 - LOCATION!)... and 2Th2:1-2 in view of 1Th5:1-3 [Paul speaking of Jesus' mention of the "beginning of birth PANGS [PL]" and Paul stating that the DOTL will ARRIVE "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"]... then it is unmistakable (meaning, the sequence / chronology).
However, due to folks misunderstanding the grammar of 2Th2:1-2 (and WHAT it is that the false claim in v.2 was/is about), as well as mis-defining key terms in that context, many people completely misunderstand the point that Paul was conveying there (and it is indeed about "rapture timing" IN RELATION TO the earthly-located DOTL time-period (that the false claim purported [or could ever purport] is already present).
Paul is BRINGING "our Rapture [VERTICAL]" [Subject (v.1)] TO BEAR on the matter of that false claim (v.2) [HORIZONTAL--earthly-located]
(they are NOT EQUATED as many try to suggest!)
"We beseech you brethren BY..."
However, due to folks misunderstanding the grammar of 2Th2:1-2 (and WHAT it is that the false claim in v.2 was/is about), as well as mis-defining key terms in that context, many people completely misunderstand the point that Paul was conveying there (and it is indeed about "rapture timing" IN RELATION TO the earthly-located DOTL time-period (that the false claim purported [or could ever purport] is already present).
Paul is BRINGING "our Rapture [VERTICAL]" [Subject (v.1)] TO BEAR on the matter of that false claim (v.2) [HORIZONTAL--earthly-located]
(they are NOT EQUATED as many try to suggest!)
"We beseech you brethren BY..."
But that verse is not a summation of the conversation regarding the Rapture a future event, it is a summation of a new conversation regarding living in the present because of the future hope. Paul sums up the Rapture conversation by telling them to console themselves with the future promise. Below is 1Thess.4:15 to 5:6 with all reference to verse and chapter numbers removed. The word "Now" signifies a new perspective on the topic. Paul is essentially telling them "while the future holds this great promise that we can be encouraged by, we cannot live as a people with a "pie in the sky" mentality as we wait for the Day. The irony is, if those who are "sleeping" in verse 4:15 are the same ones who are sleeping in 5:6, there would be no raising of the dead for them as they would still be dead in their sin.
According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober
That's also pretty much how I perceived "Genez's" post / words.
He was talking about us (the Church which is His body / the Bride). I don't know how Neh6 got it all garbled up, to where it sounded as though he was responding "against a POST-tribber" (or "Amill"-teachings, or something), instead of grasping that Genez is "PRE-trib" and was talking about THAT in his post.
That's also pretty much how I perceived "Genez's" post / words.
He was talking about us (the Church which is His body / the Bride). I don't know how Neh6 got it all garbled up, to where it sounded as though he was responding "against a POST-tribber" (or "Amill"-teachings, or something), instead of grasping that Genez is "PRE-trib" and was talking about THAT in his post.
Stuff happens.
