There will be no Rapture!!!
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First heard that one in Bible college years ago.... Made me laugh, too!
I think I was told by two students from Maine telling me in their Maine accent, which made it even funnier!........
How can the context of Rev11 be about our Rapture? Because nothing in the text corresponds with it.
For example, I think you're saying that one of the two witnesses is the Gentile believers.
This means that the entirety of one witness is killed... and then are resurrected... and then (according to you) are "G725'd" (caught up--though I disagree).
But the text in 1Th4:17 says, "caught up TOGETHER WITH them" (meaning, both those who'd previously DIED [i.e. the 2W / including the Gentile believers, according to your view] AND the still-alive ones... "caught up TOGETHER").
Your view seems to be that they (both aspects) are NOT "caught up TOGETHER" but only these who'd DIED (one of the two "witnesses" groups, according to your view). And they "ascend" PRIOR TO the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe"... ;
I think you are saying that the "still-alive ones" (who are NOT "killed" in this context) remain [further] unto the END of the Trib... but this goes against the wording of 1Th4, which tells us both the dead in Christ (bodily-resurrected) and the we which are ALIVE (both aspects of the One Body) will be "caught up TOGETHER" (the still-alive ones will be "caught-up TOGETHER WITH [together/at the same time with] them") contrary to your view.
It doesn't have to say such a thing when we can read and understand that very thing being said in OTHER ways than to directly and succinctly spelled out in detail.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
The cheap and cheesy escape from the obvious meaning to which this leads is some claim that the wrath occurs later in the tribulation. That doesn't fit with chapter 6 of Revelation, so let's see if you have something novel to try and wiggle out of this.
Oh, let me guess. You're going to claim that the day of the Lord is just one day, the day of Yahshuah's return. Well, all those verses I quoted above puts that to sleep, so the "context" dodge won't work here either.
So, what's it going to be?
MM
You are referring to the following, yes?
Thess.4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
It makes sense to me Christ should bring the souls of those who have been waiting for the Resurrection with Him as their bodies are still in the earth. This is why Paul said those who have died won't precede us who are living. We will all get our new bodies at the same time. He will bring those who have died, call out to their bodies in the grave so they are raised from the dead and then all bodies, both of the dead and those who are alive, will be transformed into the new spiritual body which is the Resurrection. Keep in mind, souls are saved, only bodies are resurrected. This all happens in the air where we meet the Lord. We then return to heaven where our home is (our citizenship is in heaven) where we will be evaluated and rewarded accordingly.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Once the Church has been sorted out, we return with Christ at the Second Coming to help rule over the Nations.
That's my understanding of 1Thess.4:14-17. It's a breakdown in nanoseconds because the whole thing will occur "in the twinkling of an eye".
First heard that one in Bible college years ago.... Made me laugh, too!
........
Being an Aussie, I had to look up what a Maine accent sounded like. I think it's cool.
I agree with you there.
--"the judgment seat of Christ" where "reward" pertains (for the Church which is His body);
--this is why Paul said he will be awarded a "stephanon/crown" in that day 2Tim4:8 (and not to him only), which does NOT refer to the time of his DEATH;
--this is why we also see the "24 elders" wearing "stephanous / crowns" (promised in the section previous--chpts 2-3), BEFORE Jesus opens the FIRST SEAL at the START of the 7-yr period;
--this is what I believe the "WAS FOUND" wording means, in Rev5:4 (pertaining to the judgment seat of Christ / BEMA), as this word is ALSO used in the latter chpts of Acts, where Paul was brought before their [human/earthly-located] "bema"
Another reason none here should want to pass over into the tribulation is that those people will no longer be under the Gospel of Grace (of Yahshuah), but rather the tribulation saints will be under the Kingdom Gospel, which is different. In the Kingdom Gospel, one must ENDURE.
Matthew 24:13-14
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Many run aground of those strange, unscriptural doctrines works-based salvations when trying to defend these verses allegedly speaking of us today.
MM
Matthew 24:13-14
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Many run aground of those strange, unscriptural doctrines works-based salvations when trying to defend these verses allegedly speaking of us today.
MM
[to go along with my last post]
"... because no man [/ not even one] was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon." Rev5:4
"... because no man [/ not even one] was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon." Rev5:4
He'll probably say (like I've heard, from some) that the humans standing on the earth and speaking the words (in Rev6:16-17) are just "from a human perspective" but not actually "truth".
I don't buy it; because of way too many other evidences outside of these 2 verses merely.
Yaaauppp! Thadd it iz!Being an Aussie, I had to look up what a Maine accent sounded like. I think it's cool.
If I'm recalling rightly, you believe one of the two witnesses is the Gentile believers, who (as you'd put) are raptured "TO HEAVEN" (after they're killed and then are resurrected). Didn't you say this?
Doesn't that mean that (according to your view) that the "2W" are "raptured TO HEAVEN" per Rev11:12?
How are you now saying that when our Rapture happens, that it nowhere indicates it is "TO HEAVEN" (as its destination-location)?
[note to readers: I don't believe Rev11 speaks anywhere of a "rapture [G726]" event... the "2W" will ASCEND up to Heaven (not be "SNATCHED [G726]"); and I believe there will be ONLY ONE "G726 - SNATCH" event... not two, separated by time. No. (It pertains SOLELY to the "One Body"... "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])]
Look at the post you quoted and then make the claim you did. Comprehension seems to be a struggle for you at times.These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
John 16:33 is not speaking of the great Tribulation.
It speaks of our everyday life while we are living in the liberal's world.
Now, here is the Great Tribulation!
For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. Matthew 24:21
You mean to tell us?
Being the great Bible scholar you are?
That you do not know that verse exists???
.............Get out of bed soldier!
.................................Five minutes till breakfast is over!
These verses indicate final tribulation. But the rapture shows up in verses 30-31 of this prophecy.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 And unless those days were cut short, no one would be delivered. But for the sake of the chosen, those days will be cut short.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory.
31 He will send out His angels with a great shofar, and they will gather together His chosen from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
You just are making it up to suit your beliefs but it says nothing like you claim.
Please EXPLAIN (spell out) what you believe verses 1-2 is saying. Thanks.
[2Th2:1-2... explain it.]
The media will control what is reported because the AC will control it. Do you think the AC would show news clips of 2 single people bringing the Wrath of God upon all sinners? Because when they die the Bible says all the people on Earth will celebrate.
Personally, to me, this proves the 2 Witnesses are all over world as in groups because Satan is not going to show himself getting beat up. But when the Witnesses die for 3 days the Whole World is rejoicing. That has to be groups of people representing the 2 Witnesses.