There will be no Rapture!!!

[LightOfMyLife]

It’s nice to speak with Lightofmylife.

Let me ask you about these people.
In Revelation Chp 6 the seals are opened and the 4 horseman of the apocalypse are being released. And they are causing all kind of trouble on the earth.

At the 5th seal….

9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Why are there fellow brethren on the earth? these aren’t people who have not come to Christ, they are fellow brethren, believers, why have they not been raptured?

There will be tribulation saints who did not take the mark of the beast. These people could not go in the pre-trib rapture because they were not saved. They became tribulation saints by rejecting the mark which means they accepted Jesus that is why they are called tribulation saints.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Ahhhh.....is Moses "elect"? How about Abraham?
Same goes for the tribulation saints and the 144,000 Israelite "virgins". Easy peasy.

No they are not elects… God said..

Ahhhh.....is Moses "elect"? How about Abraham?
Same goes for the tribulation saints and the 144,000 Israelite "virgins". Easy peasy.

Ahhhh.....is Moses "elect"? How about Abraham?
Same goes for the tribulation saints and the 144,000 Israelite "virgins". Easy peasy.

No they are not, or at least not in the sense we are speaking of…. The tribulation was not shortened so Moses and Abraham could survive… and the 144,000 are not elects
either in the sense we are speaking of.

The saints have failed their mission, for we see that despite their efforts "all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him." I identify this group as Other Christians in General (, aside and apart from the Elect and the 144,000 groups of Christians. Whatever the "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them” of the preceding verse means, the result is that the Saints and Prophets are no longer providing effective opposition at this time. They are either no longer resisting, no one is listening to them, or they are deceased; for now “all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him” except for those foreordained, i.e. the Elect, from the foundation of the world; all other's on earth are apparently at this time those "whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," because that "all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him". This is quite a change, something had to happen. Something substantial!

 

[cv5]

Your understanding of Scripture is much worse than I though.
Don't know who you are listening to or reading after but you should stop.

If you are able, by all means dazzle me some more with your refulgent genius. But I do believe that your tank is running on fumes.

 

[Truthnightmare]

There will be tribulation saints who did not take the mark of the beast. These people could not go in the pre-trib rapture because they were not saved. They became tribulation saints by rejecting the mark which means they accepted Jesus that is why they are called tribulation saints.

What verse says tribulation saints?
The elects are called, elects, the saints are called saints, the fellow brethren are called as such, I’m not familiar with the term “tribulation saint” and if the Bible tells me “elects” are on the earth, I can’t just change the name to “tribulation saint”

 

[cv5]

It’s nice to speak with Lightofmylife.

Let me ask you about these people.
In Revelation Chp 6 the seals are opened and the 4 horseman of the apocalypse are being released. And they are causing all kind of trouble on the earth.

At the 5th seal….

9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Why are there fellow brethren on the earth? these aren’t people who have not come to Christ, they are fellow brethren, believers, why have they not been raptured?

Compare and contrast that group of saints with the ALREADY (PRE-TRIB!) RESURRECTED group so noted in Rev ch 4 & 5 the "Elders" aka Church.

THAT, dear sir, is an example of the MULTIPLE COHORTS (and there are more than two!) that constitute the ORDERS AND RANKS of the FIRST RESURRECTION. Old Testament saints are ANOTHER unique group with a unique ORDER AND RANK!

Rev 6:11
Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Rev 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

 

[Truthnightmare]

Compare and contrast that group of saints with the ALREADY (PRE-TRIB!) RESURRECTED group so noted in Rev ch 4 & 5 the "Elders" aka Church.

THAT, dear sir, is an example of the MULTIPLE COHORTS (and there are more than two!) that constitute the ORDERS AND RANKS of the FIRST RESURRECTION. Old Testament saints are ANOTHER unique group with a unique ORDER AND RANK!

Rev 6:11
Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Rev 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Rev 22:16 (Jesus' last recorded words*)
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (KJV)

Here is the church they have not been raptured….

 

[cv5]

Compare and contrast that group of saints with the ALREADY (PRE-TRIB!) RESURRECTED group so noted in Rev ch 4 & 5 the "Elders" aka Church.

THAT, dear sir, is an example of the MULTIPLE COHORTS (and there are more than two!) that constitute the ORDERS AND RANKS of the FIRST RESURRECTION. Old Testament saints are ANOTHER unique group with a unique ORDER AND RANK!

Rev 6:11
Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Rev 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Also see Rev 7:15.....
No crowns no thrones.....a completely different cohort.

 

[cv5]

What verse says tribulation saints?
The elects are called, elects, the saints are called saints, the fellow brethren are called as such, I’m not familiar with the term “tribulation saint” and if the Bible tells me “elects” are on the earth, I can’t just change the name to “tribulation saint”

As far as the redeemed are concerned all the Saints are elect and all the elect are Saints.
Each according to his own order/rank.

 

[presidente]

Where is the article depicting “Christians” as subject and object?

You know, @presidente came up with this little gem. It's along the same lines of supposed (cough cough) "reasoning".
I mean......doesn't it just leave you gob smacked?

presidente said:
Show me in the book of Revelation where 'pretribulational rapture' is mentioned

I was responding to a similarly silly point, with reductio ad absurdum. The other poster was implying that the word 'church' not being mentioned in certain chapters in the book of Revelation were not part of the church.

 

[Truthnightmare]

As far as the redeemed are concerned all the Saints are elect and all the elect are Saints.
Each according to his own order/rank.

That’s simply not true.. God said he shortened the time of the tribulation for the elect, not the saints.

And the words have different meanings.

I’m other wards, every hall of fame baseball player was a good player. But not every good baseball player is a hall of famer.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I was responding to a similarly silly point, with reductio ad absurdum. The other poster was implying that the word 'church' not being mentioned in certain chapters in the book of Revelation were not part of the church.

I took a step back, and asked what is the church… For me, and it seems like most people, it’s simply, a body of believers. The church of Christ is the many-member body of the faithful. But every time I show a believer of Christ in the tribulation, now they are now part of the church…. it would seem the only people part of the church are rapture believers.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Who are the two witnesses?
Are they men who have been born in the flesh and grew into adults as all of us?
Or are they two of the OT prophets that God sends to stand before the man of sin who appear to have fleshly bodies as the angels that visited Abraham and Lot?

I go with what the text itself tells us:


7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

 

[Gideon300]

Is this opinion or is it based on scripture that says this happens during the trib?

If the church is taken away, as I and many others believe, then only unbelievers remain. If some are martyred for Christ, then the only way that this is possible is if they are saved during the great tribulation. It is evident that some refuse the mark of the beast. They will be killed.

The problem I have with the book of Revelation is the time scales. For example, North Korean Christians are experiencing the worst kind of persecution right now, as are believers in Afghanistan. 6 Million Jews would have argued that they were in the Great Tribulation. That is why I am not dogmatic about these last days issues. Some say that Satan has already been cast down (Revelation 12). I don't agree. I could be wrong. Does it matter? Not to me. I will find out soon enough, if I live that long. (I'm 72)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

As a young believer I was taught the pre-trip view but as I began to study for myself, I found many Scripture that did not agree with what I was taught and when I questioned others I was never given an answer that agreed with Scripture.

Unfortunately it's often the case that folks who hold to pre-trib sometimes either have no answer to some of the questions people have about it (or begin to have about it b/c they've been taught a "flawed version" of it that doesn't align w/scripture), or even sometimes pre-tribbers supply incorrect answers... such as "the rapture is found in Matthew 24 [or Mt25]"... which it is not.

This can set the questioner off on the wrong path from that point... and unfortunately, they begin to "listen" to other views (nothing wrong with that, mind you), but not being equipped to discern where the "new" speaker's/writer's views (they are now hearing) are flawed in an even more marked way.

I've seen this very often in just my [almost 20] years of discussion boards (reading and discussing). Sadly, they begin to be persuaded by the [horribly-butchered, in many cases] arguments put forth by the other viewpoint... like the one I heard by that [certain video-maker] I watched some time back (on here) that clearly mangled the grammar of a certain text, blurring whole sentences together (by his incorrect injection / replacement of the Greek word "peri" where "huper" was what the text actually states... *sigh*--How is someone first setting out to "seek the truth," from the flawed version of pre-trib they've been incorrectly taught, supposed to stand against such slight-of-the-[grammar, etc], when they go searching...??)

 

[Truthnightmare]

If the church is taken away, as I and many others believe, then only unbelievers remain. If some are martyred for Christ, then the only way that this is possible is if they are saved during the great tribulation. It is evident that some refuse the mark of the beast. They will be killed.

The problem I have with the book of Revelation is the time scales. For example, North Korean Christians are experiencing the worst kind of persecution right now, as are believers in Afghanistan. 6 Million Jews would have argued that they were in the Great Tribulation. That is why I am not dogmatic about these last days issues. Some say that Satan has already been cast down (Revelation 12). I don't agree. I could be wrong. Does it matter? Not to me. I will find out soon enough, if I live that long. (I'm 72)

Hello Gideon300,
Mass death does not equal the tribulation, and although these people may feel they
we’re in the great tribulation, we know they were not.
Where was the NWO during the deaths of these people? These people were not killed for refusing the mark of the beast… more importantly, the antichrist is coming to convert you, he comes in on the wings of an eagle… Remember when they say peace, peace…..

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yeah, so it is best that we focus on the now, and not worry about the future.

I agree that "worry" is not fitting for the believer. = )

However, I can assure you, that discussion about what Scripture informs us as to rapture-timing is no cause for "WORRY" (or shouldn't be)... If one detects an air of "WORRY," then indeed that can be problematic and certainly less than desirable...






But here's how I see what it is our mindset (as believers) should be regarding our future... see the word in bold in the passages below (G553 - apekdechomai ):


Rom 8:23
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting G553 eagerly G553 for our huiothesia [son-placement], the redemption of our body.


1Co 1:7
so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting G553 eagerly G553 the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,


Gal 5:5
For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting G553 [eagerly-awaiting] for the hope of righteousness. [note: "hope" here is not a kind of "wishful-thinking" like our English word has come to mean]


Phl 3:20
For our citizenship is in heaven from which also we eagerly G553 wait G553 for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;






I certainly am!! "EAGERLY-AWAITING"!! YES!!

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

Daniel 7:25 KJV
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Daniel 7:25[,27] is the same time-slot that Rev13:5-7,1 speaks to, which is the latter half of the Trib yrs.

No pre-tribber denies there will indeed be "saints" existing in those years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I had wanted to comment on the video TITLE, posted in Post #55 (page 3) of this thread (posted by @Radius ), titled "Irenaeus was Pretrib"...

... I did NOT watch the video...

... but I just wanted to say that, based on the title alone, yes, this is what I'd pointed out in a past post...
Post #1934 of an older thread:

https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4499416





I believe people mis-read Irenaeus all the time, especially by their viewing only brief extracts of his writings, and by bringing their presuppositions into certain things he said / certain words he used (which I'd pointed out in that Post #1934 as just one example of that)...

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks for admitting that Revelation 3:10 is a proof of the pre tribulation rapture.

Thanks for admitting that Revelation 3:10 is NOT proof of the pre tribulation rapture and that pretrib is a false doctrine not supported by scripture.