The World vs the Child of God

[pablocito]

We fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers of darkness.
The truth shall set you free.

Jesus spoke about speaking to us plainly in the latter days instead of in parables.

John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Jesus will reveal himself plainly to many in these last days through his Spirit, so that we have no need to battle with the words of the bible, especially to those who have fought and wrestled for the truth, without giving up.

 

[ResidentAlien]

We fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers of darkness.
The truth shall set you free.

Jesus spoke about speaking to us plainly in the latter days instead of in parables.

John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Jesus will reveal himself plainly to many in these last days through his Spirit, so that we have no need to battle with the words of the bible, especially to those who have fought and wrestled for the truth, without giving up.

V. 26 says: "In that day you will ask in My name. . ."

Should we assume that we can't ask in the Father's name until the last days? The passage clearly refers to the day when the Holy Spirit came and revealed to them the truth.

 

[pablocito]

V. 26 says: "In that day you will ask in My name. . ."

Should we assume that we can't ask in the Father's name until the last days? The passage clearly refers to the day when the Holy Spirit came and revealed to them the truth.

In John 21:18 Jesus told Peter that when he was young (that is inexperienced in serving God i.e. immature), he went about doing things his own way, but when he becomes old (i.e. mature), someone would lead him into places that he would not normally go (this is the leading of the Spirit of Christ)

John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

The Holy Spirit of God comes immediately as our teacher and guide when we are saved if we do not quench or grieve him, and we are sanctified during this process if we again do not grieve or quench the Holy Spirit, at the end of this sanctification period, the Spirit of Christ comes in and seals or preserves us. Most Christians never reach this point as we see in Rev 3 - the church of Laodecea, Christ says he will spit them out if they remain lukewarm. But when Christ comes in Peter says that we will be living in the spirit.

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

You are right it does not have to be at the end of time. But at the end of time, during the great tribulation which is in progress at this time, most Christians will be forced to make a choice as to who they are serving. At this point those serving God will have known the truth and they really cannot fall away, though the bible states that they have to endure to the end, which would be a pleasure for them as they would have been waiting for this event for a long time.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

V. 26 says: "In that day you will ask in My name. . ."

Should we assume that we can't ask in the Father's name until the last days? The passage clearly refers to the day when the Holy Spirit came and revealed to them the truth.

Yeah and the thing is the Holy Spirit is who was causing then to write the rings hey wrote in the Bible those are his words . I’ve never u derstood why people want to get away from the Bible so they can then hear what God is “really saying “ by his spirit “

The scriptures are his word

 

[pablocito]

Yeah and the thing is the Holy Spirit is who was causing then to write the rings hey wrote in the Bible those are his words . I’ve never u derstood why people want to get away from the Bible so they can then hear what God is “really saying “ by his spirit “

The scriptures are his word

I believe that we are different from the Apostles, the Apostles are the foundation of the New Jerusalem. (Revelation 21). We are going to walk in the New Jerusalem on that last day.

Jesus told the disciples (Apostles) that greater things than he did, they would do. If John in John 21 says that the things that Jesus did would fill up all the books in the world,
Then can you imagine what the Apostles did if they did greater things than Jesus. The bible is not a history book, thus it does not enumerate the things of the Apostles. The 12 Apostles disappeared out of the book of Acts about the 12th chapter. But we cannot even begin to imagine the glory that befell them.

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

The complexity of the bible is beyond the natural man's comprehension. But it is God that takes us, unschooled and illiterate, as he took the fishermen apostles and made them the foundation of the city, the New Jerusalem.

 

[oyster67]

Jesus will reveal himself plainly to many in these last days through his Spirit, so that we have no need to battle with the words of the bible, especially to those who have fought and wrestled for the truth, without giving up.

Acknowledging and listening to the Holy Spirit is key to gaining understanding and rightly dividing the Word of truth.

 

[oyster67]

V. 26 says: "In that day you will ask in My name. . ."

Should we assume that we can't ask in the Father's name until the last days?

There is no basis for any assumption that it has not always been acceptable to ask in His Name.

 

[pablocito]

Apart from Revelation 20 giving us very clear statements about the 1st Resurrection of the saints of God who were beheaded for Christ (Rev 20:4), Matthew 24 was spoken privately to the disciples of Jesus, as they were going to be the promulgators of the gospel of Christ.

Matthew 24 if read carefully speaks about 2 returns of the Son of man.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The first resurrection in Rev 20 as indicated above occurred in the 1st century church who are presently ruling with Christ in heaven. They rule over us.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation (1st century) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The Apostle Paul also mentioned it.

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

But the book of Revelation gives detailed information of these occurrences and one must persist with reading and re-reading the book of Revelation, until God gives them grace to see with spiritual eyes.

It is all about putting aside decades-long or centuries-old traditions that one acquired from men and accept by faith the word of God.

One should get it for themselves and not from any man, including myself for God is sufficient in all things.

 

[pablocito]

Again I have to mention that I am only sharing what God has put on my heart. Nothing more nothing less.
Concerning the church, we as individuals are the church, not aggregate or composite, but rather individual.

We have to think out of the box that Satan has put us in. Yes, Revelation stated that the whole world is serving Satan except for those whose names are written in the book of life. (Nothing about the local church here, but only about the world and individuals who names are written in the book of life.)

2000 years ago, the last time that Jesus spoke to the church, in the book of Revelation 2&3. He came not with salvation, but with a warning (a sword) that many of them were on the cusp of loosing their reward in heaven (another would take their reward from them.)

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

This was to the church of Philadelphia who barely had a little life in itself.

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

All the other 6 churches had serious problems among many of it's members. Pergamos was a church in which Satan dwelled.

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

It is no surprise that the local churches 2000 years ago were falling apart as the Apostle Paul insinuated that they would be wiped out after he departed this earth.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Not sparing the flock actually means "wiped out" or in the context above, wolves would eat them all.

What I have written above is just a starting point for anyone who would care to put things in proper context 2000 years ago, can study on their own to do so.

Remember that all the traditions that you learned from man could be tainted and the bible is the only authority that God has provided to us.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There is no basis for any assumption that it has not always been acceptable to ask in His Name.

from e time it was given and declared you mean ?

“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:4-6‬ ‭

“Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

no one had ever asked in Jesus name because it had never been made known to mankind beforehand

“If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:14‬ ‭

“I have glorified thee on the earth”


“Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”

Jesus came and made himself known declaring his name to mankind now believers may ask in his name always and forever who now know his name

“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭

one thing the gospel declares is Gods name

“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:10, 12-14, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

no one really ever knew him until Jesus came and declared him

“For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭4:22‬ ‭

they had the law which gave the knowledge of sin but they didn’t know God because of it. Christ came and took our sins out of the way because it meant this before remission

“Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness. None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace. Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness. We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men. We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us. For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:1-4, 8-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s no relationship until our sins are remitted only remains of a shattered relationship between God and man but the reconciliation comes in Christ when he’s declared the truth of God without sins veil between God and man tha yes over the law and ot which makes it impossible to really know Jesus

He was promising all along to come and remove sin in one event and show his glory to the earth

“For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this happened when Jesus died and rose
Shedding his blood for remission of sins of the many both to the believing Jew first and then they were sent to gentiles

“having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:15-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[pablocito]

“having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;

I love your style and the verses that you bring to the forefront.
I am not as versed as you are in the bible and still have quite a bit to learn.

I would love to address the above verses about ordinances. And again I am sharing my testimony and walk with God and not teaching.

One of my best friends believe that water baptism is a part of the salvation requirement of God.
Also many others believe that water baptism is required to publicly display that they are a born again Christian walking with God, but though not necessary for salvation but is required as the Lord's supper is required.

The word ordinance is somewhat similar to statutes, which are people specific or time specific and not an eternal commandment as love etc.

Thus as the verse above says, all ordinances are abolished, and this includes water baptism. And that is why John 3:16 stands on it's own and is complete for coming to God and inheriting his eternal kingdom.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I believe that adding things to the word of God, especially when some do it because they are told by others that it is necessary or maybe they do it to play it safe, thinking that it cannot hurt, that they are actually refusing to believe the words of the bible, and also it happens mostly because they refuse to come before God alone for his guidance.

This happens mostly when we follow traditions and we do not do the hard work for ourselves, and also because our belief is built upon the myriads of man-written books that we have read and hold close to our hearts.
I hope each person can revisit this topic by studying it on your own, because the wrong answer will display to God that you lack faith and God himself will not have any faith in you.

Remember that Jesus came to 2 different folds in the New Testament, one under the 1st Covenant which required baptism and the other which did not require baptism.

John_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus who came as a man, was a Jew; actually he was the Son of David. He had to fulfill the law as any other Jew. He did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it.

He also showed that he was the law as when he appeared to break his own rules, though he did not break them but Jesus who is God transcends time.

Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

He did the same thing when he turned water into wine and he told his mother that his time had not yet come.

 

[pablocito]

Jesus himself was baptized because he had to fulfill the Jewish law which required baptism as per God sending John the baptist to turn the people (Jews) to God else God would come and put a curse on them.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.

 

[gb9]

Jesus himself was baptized because he had to fulfill the Jewish law which required baptism as per God sending John the baptist to turn the people (Jews) to God else God would come and put a curse on them.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.

baptism and the rapture and tongues- i see why people who believe in them and why people do not.

their is enough in the Bible to support either belief.

 

[pablocito]

baptism and the rapture and tongues- i see why people who believe in them and why people do not.

their is enough in the Bible to support either belief.

I do not deny the rapture but I do not use that word because the bible does not use it. Using the word rapture can introduce a lot of concepts that are not in the bible.

I do not look up Hebrew words that the Hebrew bible uses only because God from the beginning of time knew all the languages that would be spoken in the 21st century, and made it so that an illiterate 10 year old kid in Congo Basin or in Amazon Jungle didn't need to translate the bible first from one language to another, in order to understand it.

If God wanted us to understand the Hebrew or the Greek, he would have given us the capacity to understand Hebrew or Greek, similar to how he gave the Apostles the ability to understand other languages in the 1st century.

That goes for the ancient Greek language as well. The bible was not sent into the world by man but by God to all the peoples of the world through God's own unknowable or unspeakable ways.
To believe that, that is so, is the definition of faith.

To be sure there are scores of modern English translations and God who is sovereign and supreme will lead his true servants to use wisdom in choosing the best version for themselves. Paul says that the first thing that God gives us is wisdom.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I love your style and the verses that you bring to the forefront.
I am not as versed as you are in the bible and still have quite a bit to learn.

I would love to address the above verses about ordinances. And again I am sharing my testimony and walk with God and not teaching.

One of my best friends believe that water baptism is a part of the salvation requirement of God.
Also many others believe that water baptism is required to publicly display that they are a born again Christian walking with God, but though not necessary for salvation but is required as the Lord's supper is required.

The word ordinance is somewhat similar to statutes, which are people specific or time specific and not an eternal commandment as love etc.

Thus as the verse above says, all ordinances are abolished, and this includes water baptism. And that is why John 3:16 stands on it's own and is complete for coming to God and inheriting his eternal kingdom.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I believe that adding things to the word of God, especially when some do it because they are told by others that it is necessary or maybe they do it to play it safe, thinking that it cannot hurt, that they are actually refusing to believe the words of the bible, and also it happens mostly because they refuse to come before God alone for his guidance.

This happens mostly when we follow traditions and we do not do the hard work for ourselves, and also because our belief is built upon the myriads of man-written books that we have read and hold close to our hearts.
I hope each person can revisit this topic by studying it on your own, because the wrong answer will display to God that you lack faith and God himself will not have any faith in you.

Remember that Jesus came to 2 different folds in the New Testament, one under the 1st Covenant which required baptism and the other which did not require baptism.

John_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus who came as a man, was a Jew; actually he was the Son of David. He had to fulfill the law as any other Jew. He did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it.

He also showed that he was the law as when he appeared to break his own rules, though he did not break them but Jesus who is God transcends time.

Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

He did the same thing when he turned water into wine and he told his mother that his time had not yet come.

“Thus as the verse above says, all ordinances are abolished, and this includes water baptism.”

Some strange interpretations there

have you ever noticed this consistent principle in the Bible

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if you want to understand what it is that ended and what it is that remains you just are meant to accept the new testsment and let the old belong where it does baptism lol is not an ordinance of Moses law d is not ordained of angels like the law of Moses your not making the severance where the Bible makes it for us

the old covenant is defined as everything Moses wrote in his book of the law that book is Israel’s law the book Moses wrote down just before his death

it contains the Ten Commandments , nd every ordinance and command Moses gave specifically to the children of Israel in the desert of sin at Sinai and then again at horeb when he added to the law

it’s much simpler we are bound to the gospel d everything Jesus taught of his disciples , not the things he told the Ones who rejected him but the thkngs he taught his disciples who believed.

“don’t commit adultery “ that is not Christian doctrine it’s what you tell an old sinner who hasn’t been born again by the gospel

you tell the born again Christian what to do , teach them you don’t start halting as if they are unrepentant sinners you start teaching them liken they are your young children

when you have a child and you know the child you don’t tell a kid that has no propensity for violence “ you better not be violent or you will be put to death “

it’s not needed it’s not in them to commit violence so you don’t need to teach them “don’t be violent “ they already aren’t by nature we need to accept the new nature Christ and the gospel creates in us if we do we don’t need to bear the yoke of Moses law on our neck like they did it’s not needed after repentance

Those commandments that tell you “ thou shalt not “ is for this group of people

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel is about bekng born again as children of God having our sins remitted through the act of faith in accepting and deciding to get baptized in Christs name

Nothing Jesus established is an ordinance of Moses law baptism relates to Christs death burial and resurrection there are no ordinances in the gospel it’s all the reality of what those old ordinances Represented those shadows in Moses law ordained by angels , given under a sinful priesthood , to sinners in rebellion without the holy spirit or any true atonement

it’s all a figure even the commandments “ Thou shalt not “ that’s for in repentance sinners , “ come and learn from Jesus he is gentle and humble in heart and believe “ that’s the gospel Moses law is for hardened sinners without any knowledge of Christ who knew no repentance or were offered no reprieve by Moses

The law is the old covenant it’s everything Moses said tonthe children of Israel in the desert of sin

the gospel is when Jesus came forth preaching the gospel of his kingdom commanding people to repent and be baptized in his name and believe

the two covenants have thier own Everything mediator Moses is the old Jesus the new , priesthood leviticle the old , melchezidek the new , thier own word one from earth Moses and one from heaven Jesus words , new people the children ofnisrael the old , believers who hear thy e gospel from all nations of earth beginning with israel is the new people of God

everything old was foretelling the new the old reaches to John and Jesus teaches to the end of the world

it’s really simple there’s an Old Testament in the Bible genesis all the way to Malachi

and there’s a new testament from Matthew 1:1 - the end of this world

baptism is just basic faith

 

[pablocito]

“Thus as the verse above says, all ordinances are abolished, and this includes water baptism.”

Some strange interpretations there

have you ever noticed this consistent principle in the Bible

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if you want to understand what it is that ended and what it is that remains you just are meant to accept the new testsment and let the old belong where it does baptism lol is not an ordinance of Moses law d is not ordained of angels like the law of Moses your not making the severance where the Bible makes it for us

the old covenant is defined as everything Moses wrote in his book of the law that book is Israel’s law the book Moses wrote down just before his death

it contains the Ten Commandments , nd every ordinance and command Moses gave specifically to the children of Israel in the desert of sin at Sinai and then again at horeb when he added to the law

it’s much simpler we are bound to the gospel d everything Jesus taught of his disciples , not the things he told the Ones who rejected him but the thkngs he taught his disciples who believed.

“don’t commit adultery “ that is not Christian doctrine it’s what you tell an old sinner who hasn’t been born again by the gospel

you tell the born again Christian what to do , teach them you don’t start halting as if they are unrepentant sinners you start teaching them liken they are your young children

when you have a child and you know the child you don’t tell a kid that has no propensity for violence “ you better not be violent or you will be put to death “

it’s not needed it’s not in them to commit violence so you don’t need to teach them “don’t be violent “ they already aren’t by nature we need to accept the new nature Christ and the gospel creates in us if we do we don’t need to bear the yoke of Moses law on our neck like they did it’s not needed after repentance

Those commandments that tell you “ thou shalt not “ is for this group of people

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel is about bekng born again as children of God having our sins remitted through the act of faith in accepting and deciding to get baptized in Christs name

Nothing Jesus established is an ordinance of Moses law baptism relates to Christs death burial and resurrection there are no ordinances in the gospel it’s all the reality of what those old ordinances Represented those shadows in Moses law ordained by angels , given under a sinful priesthood , to sinners in rebellion without the holy spirit or any true atonement

it’s all a figure even the commandments “ Thou shalt not “ that’s for in repentance sinners , “ come and learn from Jesus he is gentle and humble in heart and believe “ that’s the gospel Moses law is for hardened sinners without any knowledge of Christ who knew no repentance or were offered no reprieve by Moses

The law is the old covenant it’s everything Moses said tonthe children of Israel in the desert of sin

the gospel is when Jesus came forth preaching the gospel of his kingdom commanding people to repent and be baptized in his name and believe

the two covenants have thier own Everything mediator Moses is the old Jesus the new , priesthood leviticle the old , melchezidek the new , thier own word one from earth Moses and one from heaven Jesus words , new people the children ofnisrael the old , believers who hear thy e gospel from all nations of earth beginning with israel is the new people of God

everything old was foretelling the new the old reaches to John and Jesus teaches to the end of the world

it’s really simple there’s an Old Testament in the Bible genesis all the way to Malachi

and there’s a new testament from Matthew 1:1 - the end of this world

baptism is just basic faith

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Water baptism is not an ordinance. It was a command by God to the Jews under the 1st covenant. But all things under the 1st covenant have been fulfilled and have passed away.

So I stand corrected, water baptism was never an ordinance for us. (We are of those who live in the last days, under the 2nd covenant).

But the water Baptism of John the Baptist was ordained by God for the people of the 1st covenant and was fulfilled by Jesus Christ himself, being baptized by John.

In fact the bible states that Jesus water baptized more than John, even though it was not Jesus who baptized but his disciples. And in the gospel of Mark, we understand that the whole of Judea and Jerusalem came out to be baptized by John the baptist.

Thus you can just imagine all the people who came to be baptized for the remission of their sins were just monumental.

There is a verse in the bible that suggests that God ordained certain people to come under the 1st covenant and these people could not switch sides and then decide that they wanted to transfer over to the 2nd covenant. (This possibly was why Jesus shut the mouths of the unclean spirits who shouted out that he was the Son of God and also on many occasions told his disciples not to tell anyone who he was.)

But Jesus spoke about 2 folds and he quite clearly stated that they would become one. There is only one God and his ways are past finding out.

The bible contains the entirety of all of God words, his will for us and his will for the entirety of all mankind starting with Adam to the very last man on this earth.

Your following quote is one I just recently visited:

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I would just like to mention 2 words from this verse. "Disobedient" and "Ungodly".
Those words are addressed to 2 different people.
An ungodly man cannot be disobedient if he has no idea of what to obey. An ungodly man does not know God and thus cannot be obedient or disobedient to him.

Now a servant of God is always disobedient when he breaks or transgress the law, because he knows God and know the requirements of God.

The biggest truth that passes us by is the the ungodly and disobedient will suffer the same punishment. But the punishment of the ungodly will be acceptable to him as he does not know any better.
But the punishment of the disobedient will cause weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth because he was playing both sides of the fence and knows what he missed out on.

You quoted Luke 16 which I believe you barely scratched the surface, and it is almost certain that most Christians do not have an idea as to it's meaning. 2 great teachings, one about the unjust steward and the second about the time of John the Baptist.

I challenge you to revisit the 2nd teaching about the time of John the Baptist and to present the meaning of the truth it teaches.

I am anxious to tell you, but it would be a disservice to you, as we only learn when we struggle and figure it out for ourselves. (I am not taking any credit for knowing anything as it is God who revealed his truth after much struggle with the first teaching.)

Lastly I must state that the old testament and the new testament are really exactly the same. The exact same requirements. God has not changed. Again the best secular example I can give is the fetus, the embryo and the new born child is all of the same, even though they looked very different at the different stages. But one without the other is impossible. This example is juvenile or rudimentary, but gives us a glimpse into God's workings.

Without the Jews we would not exist, and without us the Jews would all be lost. This last statement is foolishness to God because God is perfect and every step was perfectly ordained by God before the foundation of the world and there is absolutely nothing missing and absolutely nothing could be added to make it more perfect.

That is what faith is all about. We cannot test God or know his ways. We are men and God is God.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

.

water baptism is exclusively for Christian’s who believe Jesus does and rose it’s where this transition happens

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baltism has nothing to do with the law or ordinance of Moses not a command to only Jews by Jesus . they under Moses law all were baptized in Moses name not Christs like I was saying Moses law is a figure the gospel is reality

The law of Moses had its own figure of baptism

“Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you have it sort of backwards the old testsment is the prophecy the New Testament is the reality baptism is well explained in scripture

your saying it’s a Jewish thing commanded to the Jews according to Moses law Jesus says it’s for all nations who believe the gospel

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Baptism and everything Jesus taught the Jews is what’s sent to the entire world here’s more proof that you probably won’t accept

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

believing and getting baptized says the lord, now of course your argument is baptism in water is not a Christian doctrine and never was but baptism is for a believer of Jesus and the gospel here’s proof

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:36-38‬

Philip just didn’t get it probably so he baptized in Water this gentile Ethiopian eunuch

forst he needed to believe in Jesus death and resurrection he was reading about in Isaiah 53 and then if he believed he could get baptized in water

another example with gentiles when they had tbier sort of day of pentocost and we’re baptized with the spirit by the lord because they believed

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter must not have understood either apparently because he commands water baptism to this group of gentile believers

And of Peter just didn’t get it it would make sense why he said baptism is for remission of sins and fulfillment of the promise to Abraham to all nations

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41‬ ‭

I know you won’t accept this but think it through by did the apostle Peter specifically make the command to these gentiles to get baptized in water ? Did Peter not understand what you do ? Or maybe is the fact baptism hasn’t changed and began with the gospel like it makes so obvious ?

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭

that has been sent to all Mankind now
baptism is where the gospel begins , it’s why we can come near to Jesus and repent and learn from him our sins we’re remitted . it wasn’t until Jesus died and rose that all he had established went into effect while Jesus lived before his death the law was still in effect when Jesus died and shed the blood of remission , the transition happens

“And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, ( the New Testament is what Jesus said he’s the only mediator between God and man ) that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus was speaking the New Testament when he died his word went into effect until that the law was the moment Jesus sent the gospel and baptism to the world all nations everything changed the whole testament. Because Jesus commands baptism toward all nations that’s the end of the matter for a Christian believer it has nothing to do with only Jews nothing to do with Moses law but remission of the sins imputes by the law

baptism is based on Jesus death and resurrection it’s why you are buried in water and raised up from water it has nothing in any way to do with anything Moses had commanded israel they were all baptized into moses and his law we aren’t we need to accept baptism into this name and doctrine

“When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭

you can say that’s not speaking of “ water “ baptism but I’ve shown you that’s what they were doing that’s the only baptism there is for us to do Jesus is who sends the holy spirit to a believer baptism is for remission of sins and is performed in water always has been since the gospel began with johns ministry of repentance and remission of sins regarding faith in Christ

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4-6‬ ‭

now for you to say Peter commanding water baptism for remission of sins isn’t the one baptism would just be erroneous and saying Peter didn’t get it

the apostles were all baptized including Paul

“And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭9:18, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And they taught baptism and it’s deep meanings as I’ve provided above from ramans Six one aspect there’s also another point that sort of makes you think about what your saying Ali baptism being a “ Jewish “ thing

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism isn’t a Jewish or gentile thing it’s a Christian thing and an Abraham’s inheritance thing , and a remission of sins thing and is based solely upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and his name it’s for any Christian who wants remission of thier sins in his name

 

[pablocito]

The law of Moses had its own figure of baptism

Moses law was not unique and the commandment and laws including the tabernacle came straight down from heaven to us. They are called a shadow of things to come in the sense that they are not the real deal and cannot save. But they represent the eternal things that are in heaven.

I am not sure where to start to express my findings concerning the bible and it's teachings, really because I am not a teacher. Therefore I can only express my testimony of what God has done and revealed to me.

The bible is a very unique from all books because God is it's author and God is infinite in everything that he does.

Therefore if one is not a Christian, or a child of God, I can understand how the bible can go in many different directions from a secular point of view. In fact, I would agree with the Muslims who do not have Christ in their hearts, that the bible has thousands of errors or contradictions (probably more like millions) because they (the Muslims) cannot attain the perspective of God, but instead use the perspective of the greatest of secular men, like Einstein and Aristotle and Plato and Socrates and even today's modern scientists who characterize the bible as fiction or mythology.

Thus because of this gap in understanding, I will revisit your above post (and since it is so long) I will take one point at a time in one post only at a time, so that we can hone in on the essentials. Maybe it might take months to address everything that you have said but it is better to take months coming to the truth, rather than take years or decades going around the bush (or generalizing).

So in my next post I will start with just one point only. Maybe I will do one point a day.
We do not have to agree perfectly on everything but at least we should understand what the other is saying (even if we disagree).

I am at the point of starting to walk in the spirit and therefore there is no certainty about what tomorrow will bring. The Spirit and the Spirit alone must lead without exception else my points will all be vain and puffed up.

 

[phil36]

if we again do not grieve or quench the Holy Spirit, at the end of this sanctification period, the Spirit of Christ comes in and seals or preserves us.

Hi pablocito,

Could you explain the above.

Better still could you show in scripture where we have the Holy Spirit starting our sanctification and at the end of this sanctification at some unspecified time the Spirit of Christ then comes in and seals and preserves..

 

[pablocito]

“The law and the prophets were until John:

We must begin at the very beginning, the foundation must be sure else everything will be lost.

Your understanding of the "The law and the prophets were until John is your stumbling block and until we can get over that hump in the road, we can go nowhere.

I will use a couple of examples. God's timing and time is of the essence. Jesus told his mother his time had not yet come, when she told him they ran out of wine. Thus we should never translate our earthly perception of time to equal God's time. Just because Jesus was here on earth did not mean that he now had to fulfill his mission.
Another example is when he told the Canaanite woman that he could not take the children's meat and feed it to dogs. He said the children must first be fed before the gentiles could be fed.

This principle of the Jew first, then the gentile is scattered throughout the entire bible and I need not introduce it to you.

If you go back to Abraham, God told him he would have a child. But it had to be done in God's own timing. Abraham went along with his wife's impatience and instead gave birth to Ishmael because he could not wait 25 years to have the child of promise.

Paul had to tell the Thessalonians that the resurrection has not come as yet and they had to wait for God's time.

Peter in 2nd Peter 3 told us that 1 day is like a thousand years with the Lord.

Now back to our original problem of John the Baptist. John the Baptist went so far as to give us some hints. He said I will decrease and he shall increase. Jesus did the work that John the Baptist was doing for a long while where the bible says that Jesus baptized more people than John the Baptist did (even though it was Jesus's disciples who were doing the baptizing.)

Thus we know that John the Baptist's era did not sudden stop with his imprisonment or his demise, similar to the Abraham did not have a baby the day after God told him he would have Isaac. He had to wait 25 years for that to happen.

This concept is so important, many will be tripped up into falling away because of lack of patience. Peter were addressing the naysayers who were waiting for the Lord's return and had to make the big statement that 1 day equal a thousand years with the Lord.

Jesus brings this concept to fruition in Revelation 3 when addressing the Philadelphia church when he talks about the patience of Christ. Those who keep the patience of Christ, meaning that those who do not lose their patience in waiting for him, will avoid the great temptation that will come upon the whole world.

I could write a book on this, but I am not going to say anymore for now, and I would like to get your feedback (you do not have to agree with me) but I want to know if you understand where I am coming from. Again you do not have to agree with me but at least you could show me the flaws in my argument.
I am saying that Jesus had to finish the work of John the Baptist before he could go on to service the Jews.
Even Paul went to the Jews first, even thought Jesus's commission to him was the Gentiles. Jesus even sent the lepers who he healed to go to the priests.

Mat 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Jesus came to the Jew first, then afterwards to the Gentile.
Thus John's era did not finish until Jesus said that it was finished. (Which he did in Hebrews 8 & 9)

Heb_9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

I am sure that I probably made a lot of grammatical errors as I did not check what I wrote, therefore I hope they are not a stumbling block to you. Also I did not quote any of the verses as they could become a stumbling block, as I am assuming that you know the contents of the bible as well as I do, and the real problem is a matter of interpretation.