THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

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User00

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Dec 30, 2021
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I said nothing about Scripture doing anything to the women in your congregations. I said you and the Church Leaders (men) of your congregations.

All of you stand tall and preach/teach the women they can not have authority over men, or hold positions of leadership in the church because the Apostle said so. You are all happy to build your theology around that Scripture, yet NONE of you do any preaching/teaching of the rest of Scriptures the Apostle wrote concerning women. In so doing, you are all cowards and unworthy of claiming to be the spiritual heads of the church/home IMO.

It is truly a sad state you and the Church Leaders build your congregations on. If you are going to enforce ONE of the Scriptures, then why exactly are you not enforcing ALL of the Scriptures? I am convinced that you and the Church Leaders will answer to God for your actions one day!
What are the teachings that aren't being implemented that are detrimental? That women shouldn't sing in church or teach in sunday school? That's ridiculousness
If women are to only teach sunday school outside of the church, as in the home, that is still church, any gathering of Christians to worship or BIble study is church
Women shouldn't be pastors or any position of authority
Sunday school teaching for kids is fine, those verses you refer to you you seem to misunderstand
 

EnglishChick

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Apr 20, 2021
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What are the teachings that aren't being implemented that are detrimental? That women shouldn't sing in church or teach in sunday school? That's ridiculousness
If women are to only teach sunday school outside of the church, as in the home, that is still church, any gathering of Christians to worship or BIble study is church
Women shouldn't be pastors or any position of authority
Sunday school teaching for kids is fine, those verses you refer to you you seem to misunderstand
women shouldn't any position of authority ? Yes we can. Outside of a church setting we can. Otherwise women bosses , prime ministers, company CEOS etc would be forbidden in Bible. And they aren't .it's only a woman being an elder (what we would call a pastor or priest nowadays) which the bible takes issue with .
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Most of these types of threads are written by those who are not married or divorced or hate women because of the hurt they have from what they think was women.


They write this to cause dissension. In reality, women are not an issue in the majority of church leadership They makeup and very small percentage.

Homosexuality, divorce, pornography, and remarrying of church leaders who are all MEN leaders are bigger problems.

Women if they waited for wimps to do anything nothing would get done. Women are the ones working the Christian church today and NOT in the pulpit. Young men are not finding the church attractive because the "church Leaders" (men) have not effectively discipled them.

So,

here we are in 2022 with the same old dried-out issues of Women in the church. When will men look in the mirror?
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
The Fall
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made.
He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘Youa shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise,b she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. 7Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

8And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the coolc of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”d 10And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.” 11He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” 13Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14The Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
and dust you shall eat
all the days of your life.
15I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspringe and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”
16To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be contrary tof your husband,
but he shall rule over you.”
17And to Adam he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”
20The man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.g 21And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.
22Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

Perhaps we should define "curse".
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,112
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Most of these types of threads are written by those who are not married or divorced or hate women because of the hurt they have from what they think was women.


They write this to cause dissension. In reality, women are not an issue in the majority of church leadership They makeup and very small percentage.

Homosexuality, divorce, pornography, and remarrying of church leaders who are all MEN leaders are bigger problems.

Women if they waited for wimps to do anything nothing would get done. Women are the ones working the Christian church today and NOT in the pulpit. Young men are not finding the church attractive because the "church Leaders" (men) have not effectively discipled them.

So,

here we are in 2022 with the same old dried-out issues of Women in the church. When will men look in the mirror?

DenominationTotal Clergy in 1994% Female Clergy


American Baptist Churches 12%
Assemblies of God 8%
Christian Church 18%
(Disciples of Christ) 18%
Church of God 10%
Church of the Brethren12%
Church of the Nazarene 11%
Episcopal Church 12%
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America 11%
Free Methodist Church 1%
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) 19%
Southern Baptist Convention 4%
United Church of Christ 25%
United Methodist Church 15%
Wesleyan Church 11%
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

For several weeks now, I have been thinking of the situation of the women in the Church. It has been heavy on my heart, and I have given much thought as to how best present it here on Christian Chat.

I am not arguing any particular Church Group/Denominational Teaching as being right or wrong. That is not the purpose of this Article.

The purpose of this Article is to discuss the situation that millions of women in the Church find themselves. There are numerous Chruch Groups/Denominations that teach the writings of the Apostle Paul concerning women. For the purpose of this Article, I am taking the position that their teachings are true and Biblical (my personal thoughts not withstanding).

The most taught writing of the Apostle Paul is found in 1 Timothy, Chapter 2:
12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The Churches do not allow women to be Pastors, or hold Offices that give them authority over the men of the Congregation based on this writing. And, as far as I know, the millions of women who attend the Churches that teach this, are not rising up in protest. I can not say how they feel in their hearts, or what they think in their minds, but I am not aware of any great movement by the women to protest this teaching of their Church.

The Church Leaders hold that the Apostle Paul was speaking for God, and, thus, this teaching is a Commandment from God. And as such, must be obeyed. I fully agree that the Commandments from God must be obeyed, for Jesus Himself taught this on numerous occasions. One such is found in the 14th Chapter of John: 15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.


The problem is, this is not the only teaching concerning women that the Apostle Paul wrote. 1 Timothy contains other teachings:

9) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10) But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
The Apostle Paul also stated how a woman would receive salvation:
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

There are othere Epistles where the Apostle spoke of women. The most notable being 1 Corinthians, Chapter 14:
34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

As well, in Titus, Chapter 2 we find:
3) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4) That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5) To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

These are the most know teachings concerning women from the Apostle Paul. Given that it is accepted that the Apostle Paul spoke for God in all he wrote, then all of these teachings must be considered Commandments from God.

And THIS is the situation that millions of women find themselves in!

To be clear, we can show the actual results of the Apostle Paul's teachings:

Women are to keep silence in Church. This means that women are NOT to speak/pray or sing out loud while in the Church Building.

Women are ONLY authorized to teach the young women/girls. However, this teaching can not occur within the Church Building, meaning in a Sunday School Room/Class. For women are forbidden to speak within the Church Building. So, I can only believe that they are to teach the young women at home.

Women are NOT allowed to attend Sunday School Classes, nor are they allowed to own or even read the Holy Bible. The Apostle Paul said "if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home." I can only believe that IF women have a question concerning the Gospel, they are to ask their husbands "at home," and it is the husbands duty to teach his wife the Gospel. In this way, what the women learn from their husbands, they can teach to the young women/girls.

Women are NOT to cut or color or style their hair. Nor are they to wear jewelry or make up. They are to dress in "modest" clothing. The Apostle said:
"9) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

Now, the situation women are faced with is that these writings of the Apostle Paul must be considered Commandments from God, since their Church Leaders have established that all that the Apostle Paul spoke/wrote WERE Commandments from God.

Given this, and given that Jesus Himself commanded that we obey Him, the millions of women who are not obedient to ALL of the Apostles writings find themselves living "daily" in disobedience to the Commandments of God!

I do not know if these women even consider this reality, or, if they do, how they justify not obeying ALL the writings of the Apostle Paul?

I have GRAVE FEAR for these women. My heart hurts for them, and I pray for them. I also do not believe their Church Leaders even recognize the situation THEY have placed their women in! How do the Church Leaders justify enforcing only one of the Apostles writings while ignoring all the rest? Do they realize that they are committing their women to live lives in disobedience to God?

I pray that somehow, some way, the Church Leaders that teach concerning women, and the women themselves begin to find a way to rectify this habitual life of disobedience. I have GRAVE FEAR for these women!

Even though the Apostle said they would be "saved in childbearing," he also stated:
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
To receive their salvation in "childbearing," them MUST live in obedience to Gods Commandments!

I pray that the Church Leaders will sincerely pray and seek to address this dire situation!

Praying for the women of the Church..........
one thing I noticed is Paul blames Eve for sin here when arguing why he doesn’t allow women to teach

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this doesn’t really jive with what he wrote here blaming Adam the man for sin and death

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12, 14, 19‬ ‭

I believe Paul was growing in his doctrine and his later letters had more understanding regarding men and women

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Forst he laid the blame soecifically in Eve , then specifically to Adam , later he recognizes no difference in Christ because those who are baptized have had thier sins remitted so baptized women have already been reconciled and dont have to somehow bear a child , and work for thier salvstion as he seems to suggest here he seems to suggest women have more work to do than men to be saved because of eves transgression

“Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety”

I believe it’s important to understand paul isn’t perfect he says he isn’t and also there are times he makes a point to say “ I’m saying this not the lord “ and other times “ the lord is saying this not me “

his letters have very intricate details that are important
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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I think the original intention of the Bible is not that women can't teach men, but that women should learn a quiet learning lifestyle. The Bible doesn't say that men must govern women, nor does it say that women must govern men. In genesis, God created women to help men. You may not know how excellent a quiet woman is, Can you imagine how terrible An irritable woman is?
Maybe you can't imagine that a quiet woman can help men more than a woman can teach people the correct words of the Bible.
The above is just some personal thoughts on the understanding of the Bible. If you have different ideas, welcome to discuss.
 

EnglishChick

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2021
673
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England UK
I think the original intention of the Bible is not that women can't teach men, but that women should learn a quiet learning lifestyle. The Bible doesn't say that men must govern women, nor does it say that women must govern men. In genesis, God created women to help men. You may not know how excellent a quiet woman is, Can you imagine how terrible An irritable woman is?
Maybe you can't imagine that a quiet woman can help men more than a woman can teach people the correct words of the Bible.
The above is just some personal thoughts on the understanding of the Bible. If you have different ideas, welcome to discuss.
I think you may have something here . It being about the heart attitudes and intentions. Rather than a flat out prohibition.
 
Dec 3, 2023
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Wives must obey their husbands. My understanding is that the relationship referred to the Bible is between the Church and Jesus Christ. As wives, the Church must obey their husbands, that is, obey the words of Jesus Christ.
Church is the wife.
Jesus Christ is the husband.

Does anyone have any other opinions?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Wives must obey their husbands. My understanding is that the relationship referred to the Bible is between the Church and Jesus Christ. As wives, the Church must obey their husbands, that is, obey the words of Jesus Christ.
Church is the wife.
Jesus Christ is the husband.

Does anyone have any other opinions?
Unless the context is clearly talking the church corporate, it is likely that the passage is discussing literal marital relationships. Just because the Bible uses "bride" for "Church" does not mean every instance of "wife" or "husband" is implying the same metaphor.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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I do not know if these women even consider this reality, or, if they do, how they justify not obeying ALL the writings of the Apostle Paul?
Since Paul was writing by divine inspiration, and in fact also wrote that what he was writing was actually from Christ, you made a long story out of nothing.

Paul's epistles are in fact also "the Word of God"| (as is the entire Bible). Here is what he said to the Thessalonians in 1 Thess 2:13 (as just one example): For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

So it is not all the churches that have a problem, but you personally, in relation to the writings of Paul.
 
Dec 3, 2023
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Unless the context is clearly talking the church corporate, it is likely that the passage is discussing literal marital relationships. Just because the Bible uses "bride" for "Church" does not mean every instance of "wife" or "husband" is implying the same metaphor.
You can try substituting this metaphor into any scripture of wife and husband to see how it works.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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You can try substituting this metaphor into any scripture of wife and husband to see how it works.
Yes, you can do the same with any metaphor, but then you need to reject the cases where it doesn’t fit. ;)