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sparkman
Guest
Simple enough..why don't Judaizers believe it? I bet they think the jailer was instructed on the Torah prior to being saved 
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The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)
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sparkman
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No, it makes no sense at all. The council decided that only those things were requested to be observed by Gentiles.
The reference to Moses being preached in the synagogues relates to why they had to issue the decree. Christians were going to the Synagogue on Sabbath to hear the Scriptures read, because they didn't have ready access to copies of the Scripture themselves. They would meet on Sundays by themselves to discuss the Scriptures from a Christian context. The reason for issuing their edict was to protect Gentile Christians from the teachings of those in the Synagogues that they needed to keep the Torah. There is no proof in this verse for requiring Gentile Christians to observe the Torah, other than the elements mentioned. In fact, Galatians decimates that assertion, read in context.
Another strike against the 119ministries crowd
@Yahshua
Circumcision is clearly identified with the law of Moses by Christ:
John 7:23 [SUP]23 [/SUP]If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well
It was the one-time entry sign as a member of the Old Covenant.
In an earlier post you asserted that it was not part of the law of Moses. Perhaps you feel qualified to correct Jesus on this matter?
I think Christ would appreciate me keeping his record as it is exactly laid out for us. I never asserted circumcision wasn't part of God's Law. Note what I said regarding circumcision.
Truly, Circumcision is identified with the law of Moses. But no it wasn't a sign of the Old Covenant (as I take you mean the "old Covenant" as meaning the one established on Mt. Sinai between God and Israel). Circumcision was not...was not...a sign of the covenant made on "Mt. Sinai". It was a sign of the covenant made well over 400 years before Mt. Sinai with Abraham and God ("Abrahamic covenant"), and was *incorporated* into the law of God (called "the law of Moses" by Christ as a reference), because the Israelites were descendants of Abraham and were ALREADY required to follow it.
Genesis 17:9-12
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
That's not Christ's point at all with regard to circumcision. He was making a point about the Sabbath because the Pharisees were claiming he was breaking the Sabbath, when he never did. Christ's point was "if a man's body (skin) can be broken during the Sabbath in honor of the Law [Christ's premise being 'such was allowed to be done on the Sabbath'], how can you be mad at me for *restoring* a man's body on the same Holy Day?"
There was one specific person who was allowed to work on the Sabbath, in fact, who was **commanded** to work on the Sabbath. The Priest of God. Just like today pastors, deacons, and church staffs work on Sunday in service to God. The Priest was required to work on the Sabbath. One such work he performed was the circumcision of male children in public ceremony.
What the Pharisees did not recognize in Christ (and his apostles) was that he was - in fact - a Priest of God. And so they challenged him at every turn for his (supposed) violation of the Sabbath when he, and he specifically, could do never do such thing since he was (a) a priest "doing [our father's] work" on his holy day, and (b) required to remain sinless.
Appreciate the challenge and contention. It keeps me sharp. But I rather follow he who is Lord of the Sabbath.
...But I will say this regarding the Holy Spirit being the seal over the Sabbath. Have you ever wondered why the Holy Spirit was given on the same exact High Sabbath as the time when God's Law was given to the people of God at Mt. Sinai (on Pentecost)? The Holy Spirit IS God's law in person ("for we know that the law is spiritual" Romans 7:14). The Holy Spirit would never contradict a commandment shouted out of God's own mouth because he's the one that gave it.
So I have no problem with saying the Holy Spirit is the seal as scripture says (Ephesians 1:13) because that Spirit will ALWAYS direct the believer to being obedient to God's Commandments, not direct them to disobey God.
Test every spirit because there are many counterfeits. Even the elect could be deceived if it were possible.
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sparkman
Guest
It's not worth discussing. My assertions stand, and my reasoning is solid. I am not going to argue the point with someone who doesn't acknowledge sound reasoning.
I'm not sure the Holy Spirit would lead someone to name call and label. That's an accusatory spirit...and there's only one accuser of the brethren. Just saying, we need to know what spirit we're of.
Would you requires your children to follow a rule you haven't taught them yet? That's cruel.
I still have a sacrifice for sin that satisfies that law, he's called The Christ. The problem wasn't the law (of sacrifice), it was that the blood of animals could never do the job perfectly to completion like Christ could. And in requirement of that law, he took his blood into heaven to do the job that law required to is fullness.
Regarding *physical* circumcision; just like the temple, its furnishings, animals blood were all shadows (i.e. representative forms of the real version), likewise was *physical* circumcision a shadow (i.e. representative form) of the real version which is "Love God with all you heart and all your soul and all your might" (Deut 30:6 & Romans 2:29). THAT is true circumcision. Circumcision of the heart.
I don't know personally. Maybe? He IS dead resting in peace, while I'm still alive. And Daniel prophesied that knowledge would increase in the end times. God doesn't change and Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. They're still teaching...still winning souls. The harvest is plenty and the laborers are few so nothing's stopping God from downloading further understanding into any new worker for his harvest.
Christ didn't say that. He said "it's what comes OUT of the mouth that makes a man unclean". Such as slandering a person or making false accusations; name calling, etc.
No. It's not a contradiction. Priests are allowed to work on the Sabbath as servants of God. That's articulated in God's law.
Hey Prodigal could you please quote who you're referring to regarding this warning because I haven't read neither Eliwood nor I promoting such a false teaching. But maybe I missed the post you're referring to? There's only been another who's been falsely accusing us of claiming that, when we've clearly said salvation is by faith through grace, and that sanctification is through obedience to God's commandments; that we're justification only through faith in Christ.
Circumcision is of the heart like scripture says in Deut 30:6 (when one loves God with their whole being), and like Paul says in Romans 2:29.
Ultimately I hope that the posts are read in detail before such a final action is taken regardless of your decision one way or the other.
Would you requires your children to follow a rule you haven't taught them yet? That's cruel.
I still have a sacrifice for sin that satisfies that law, he's called The Christ. The problem wasn't the law (of sacrifice), it was that the blood of animals could never do the job perfectly to completion like Christ could. And in requirement of that law, he took his blood into heaven to do the job that law required to is fullness.
Regarding *physical* circumcision; just like the temple, its furnishings, animals blood were all shadows (i.e. representative forms of the real version), likewise was *physical* circumcision a shadow (i.e. representative form) of the real version which is "Love God with all you heart and all your soul and all your might" (Deut 30:6 & Romans 2:29). THAT is true circumcision. Circumcision of the heart.
I don't know personally. Maybe? He IS dead resting in peace, while I'm still alive. And Daniel prophesied that knowledge would increase in the end times. God doesn't change and Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. They're still teaching...still winning souls. The harvest is plenty and the laborers are few so nothing's stopping God from downloading further understanding into any new worker for his harvest.
Christ didn't say that. He said "it's what comes OUT of the mouth that makes a man unclean". Such as slandering a person or making false accusations; name calling, etc.
No. It's not a contradiction. Priests are allowed to work on the Sabbath as servants of God. That's articulated in God's law.
Hey Prodigal could you please quote who you're referring to regarding this warning because I haven't read neither Eliwood nor I promoting such a false teaching. But maybe I missed the post you're referring to? There's only been another who's been falsely accusing us of claiming that, when we've clearly said salvation is by faith through grace, and that sanctification is through obedience to God's commandments; that we're justification only through faith in Christ.
Circumcision is of the heart like scripture says in Deut 30:6 (when one loves God with their whole being), and like Paul says in Romans 2:29.
Ultimately I hope that the posts are read in detail before such a final action is taken regardless of your decision one way or the other.
Edit (Correction): Salvation is by grace through faith, and that sanctification is through obedience to God's commandments; but that we're justified through faith in Christ.
1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Romans 15:15-16
But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
1 Peter 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Hebrews 10:10
By the which will weare sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
What was the Greek word for 'word' that John uses there? 'Graphe', which is the Greek for 'Scriptures?'
Or 'Logos', which is the Greek word that John uses to describe Jesus, the full expression of the Living God?
Logos is the word used there, so it is not by the Scriptures that we are sanctified, but by Christ.
Now check this out:
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. - Rom. 8
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. - Jn. 14
Being in Christ results in Him producing His Fruit in and through us.
The Fruit?
Love and its subsets: joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness, and self-control.
God's commands after the Cross?
Believe in the One God sent and love one another. (1 Jn. 3)
It's not about Law; it's about Belief in Christ and love.
-JGIG
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sparkman
Guest
Here is what Mark 7:19 says:
Mark 7:19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
In regards to physical circumcision, Eliwood has said that physical circumcision is something a believer should do. Whether he said it was required before salvation or is something a believer should do after salvation, I am not sure. He believes the whole Torah must be kept.
I am not sure if he said it on this thread or in person but that is his position.
Mark 7:19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
In regards to physical circumcision, Eliwood has said that physical circumcision is something a believer should do. Whether he said it was required before salvation or is something a believer should do after salvation, I am not sure. He believes the whole Torah must be kept.
I am not sure if he said it on this thread or in person but that is his position.
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sparkman
Guest
Judaizers are those who claim that Torah observance is required for salvation, or that those who are saved should be Torah observant. If you guys are claiming this, you are Judaizers.
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sparkman
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sparkman
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Paul called Judaizers "dogs". He didn't mean that in a nice way....he meant nasty, mangy beasts that created trouble.
They would follow him around after he taught the true Gospel, and try to bring believers into subjection under the requirements of the Old Covenant.
Read Philippians 3.
Philippians 3: 3 Finally, my brothers,[SUP][a][/SUP] rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God[SUP][b][/SUP] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—
They would follow him around after he taught the true Gospel, and try to bring believers into subjection under the requirements of the Old Covenant.
Read Philippians 3.
Philippians 3: 3 Finally, my brothers,[SUP][a][/SUP] rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God[SUP][b][/SUP] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—
I agree JGIG. It is about Christ and love. But here's your problem. Like a lot of "christians" nowadays, you're stuck on milk. Accepting christ as your savior is only the beginning of your walk with him. From the point on, you're supposed to grow in knowledge of how Christ lived, and follow his example. So now, it's time to stop sucking on your bottle (figuratively speaking) and move up to solid foods. Try the steak of God's word. Obedience to his commandments.
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." (Hebrews 10:16)
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! (2 Peter 3:18)
If you're walking in the spirit, the spirit will lead you to follow God's commandments. If you're walking in the flesh, you will be hostile to God, and reject his commandments.
The carnal mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to the law of God, nor can it. (Romans 8:7)
Non-Christian Jews and Muslims have Law. They use law, and it becomes not about God or his Spirit, but looking righteous or holy by appearing to follow the law.
The Law is a guide to God's character. Faith starts with belief, and is a Journey of learn who God is, his Character, and how to lean on him. He is a jealous God. Are you lovers of the Law or of God? Loving the law can lead into Apostasy. Do Talmudic Jews truly Love God, and seek to serve him, or do they Love the Talmud as literature, and something that binds them together as Jews?
The Law is a guide, but seek after Jesus first.
Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Laws of Moses. How many fatten calves or lambs have you sacrificed as sin offerings at the Temple which Jesus prophesied would be destroyed? Blood covers sins, and Jesus is God's Sacrificial Lamb.
He is The Lord of Hosts. Hosts can mean Armies, but you are a Host in that, your Body is a Temple, a Host or House for God's Spirit. Let those with ears to hear listen what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. If you can hear the Spirit, then you are part of the Army of God.
The Law is a guide to God's character. Faith starts with belief, and is a Journey of learn who God is, his Character, and how to lean on him. He is a jealous God. Are you lovers of the Law or of God? Loving the law can lead into Apostasy. Do Talmudic Jews truly Love God, and seek to serve him, or do they Love the Talmud as literature, and something that binds them together as Jews?
The Law is a guide, but seek after Jesus first.
Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Laws of Moses. How many fatten calves or lambs have you sacrificed as sin offerings at the Temple which Jesus prophesied would be destroyed? Blood covers sins, and Jesus is God's Sacrificial Lamb.
He is The Lord of Hosts. Hosts can mean Armies, but you are a Host in that, your Body is a Temple, a Host or House for God's Spirit. Let those with ears to hear listen what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. If you can hear the Spirit, then you are part of the Army of God.
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sparkman
Guest
Here he goes claiming others are unsaved. Very typical of Judaizers. "Christians" is an indication that you consider the person to be a false believer. Hypocrisy and a spiritual superiority complex sticks out like a sore thumb.
Christians are obedient to the commandments that apply to THEM not the nation of Israel.
Christians are obedient to the commandments that apply to THEM not the nation of Israel.
Obedience to the law is not how you show your love for the Lord.
Abiding in Christ is how you show your love for Him. Believing in the Only Begotten Son of God is how you show your love for Him.
When we abide in Christ we are dead to the requirements of the law. We are not concerned about our understanding and our strength. When we abide in Christ we are alive to His Provision, which fulfills the law. His Provision is the only thing that can fulfill the law.
Galatians 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Your silly questions are only unanswerable to those who don't know Christ.
Galatians 3:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Are you so foolish? Well, no probably not. Ignorant is probably a better term for you.
Let me ask you a really important question, that is answerable. Will the fruit of the Spirit cause a person to come under the curse of the law?
One more. Are the fruit of the Spirit grown by your "obedience" of the law?
Your own carnal understanding has caused you to short-circuit the purpose of the law and in doing so you have denied the Power of Christ. You are still attempting to obey a carnal commandment instead of coming to Faith in Christ and Life Everlasting.
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sparkman
Guest
I'd be glad to respond to your answers if you parse them out into indiivdual posts.
These long posts combining questions are annoying and hard for me to handle at one sitting. I can easily address your assertions if you do this. Otherwise, I won't bother.
These long posts combining questions are annoying and hard for me to handle at one sitting. I can easily address your assertions if you do this. Otherwise, I won't bother.
I emphasized the key prepositions, possessives and verbs in each of the passages you've shared. I also shared the Greek originals for each of the words if it was distinguished. Note the word doesn't use "with" ["Meth" in Greek]. In other words, your own passages show that one isn't sanctified simply because they possess the Holy Spirit. Rather, sanctification is a WORK; a process of the Holy Spirit in a person, guiding them and REMINDING them of Christ's words. So I agree, with your following portion...
Exactly. We are sanctified [i.e. a process of becoming holy for God; set apart] through Christ's words, ALL of Christ's words. All of them. So big question is, what did Christ say?
Sorry, but your conclusion above doesn't follow...but you've laid great proof for what does, so let's follow this out...
1) Sanctification is through the Holy Spirit...Check.
2) Sanctification is through God's truth, who is Christ...Check.
3) Anyone who doesn't have Christ's Spirit in them doesn't belong to Christ...Check.
4) Christ is the only way to the Father. There is no other way...Check.
NOW...where does that leave us? Of course that leaves us with needing Christ's spirit in us, as I'm sure you agree. So How do we receive Christ's spirit in us?
John 6:63
It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
- The words Christ spoke/speaks are life.
- The words Christ spoke/speaks are his spirit.
John 15:3
You are clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
Ephesians 5:25-26
...just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
- The words Christ spoke/speaks clean.
- The words Christ spoke/speaks sanctify.
Luke 6:46-48
"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
47"Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and does them, I will show you whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
- To hear and do what Christ says, makes Christ one's lord.
- To hear and do Christ's words, builds their house upon the rock.
What words did Christ speak? What did Christ say to do?
Matthew 19:17 & 20
...If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.
21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.
- The words Christ spoke/speaks were keep the commandments to enter life.
- The words Christ spoke/speaks were to follow him to be complete.
Luke 10:25-28
"Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And [Christ] said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?"
27 And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
28 And [Christ] said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."…
- The greatest commandments Christ spoke/speaks are read in God's law.
- The words Christ spoke/speaks was to do what is written in God's law in order to live.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
- To Believe in Christ will grant everlasting life.
John 5:47
If you don't believe what Moses wrote, how will you ever believe what I say?"
- To not believe in Moses' writings is to not believe in Christ's words
John 14:15-17, 23-24 & 26
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
24"He who does not love Me does not keep My words;
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and remind you of all that I said to you.
- If a person loves Christ they will keep Christ's words
- If a person keeps Christ's words they receive The Spirit of Truth
- The Holy Spirit will remind a person of ALL of Christ's words
- If a person keeps Christ's words Christ lives in them
- But if a person does not keep Christ's words, they do not love Christ (no matter how much they say they do)
So with this truth we can restate the 4 points above:
1) Sanctification is through Christ's words
2) Sanctification is through God's truth, which are Christ's words
3) Anyone who doesn't have Christ's words in them doesn't belong to Christ
4) Christ's words is the only way to the Father. There is no other way
----
Sanctification IS about obedience to the commandments, which are Christ's words...and Christ's words are the Commandments. To love Christ is to obey God's commandments. Note that the only path to holiness (i.e. sanctification) is indeed through Christ alone:
Through his spirit > which is what he said > his words > THE Word > The Law > God's Commandments
Christ IS the word (God's Law)...The Word (God's Law) IS Christ. They ARE him. He IS they. This is why it's so critically important to follow the commandments, because that's the only way we can GUARANTEE that we have CHRIST'S Spirit in us and not a counterfeit's spirit.
Naturally Gentiles have got the 'Law' written in their hearts and their conscience is their 'schoolmaster', who either 'excuses' or accuses them (Romans 2;14,15).
And so verse 16, is for yous, how you will be judged on that day, whether your 'abiding' is in the Gospel and not according to your own hearts, that;
16. ".................... on that day, according to My Gospel, GOD judges the secrets of men by CHRIST JESUS."
So the preaching and teaching of the Gospel must be 'founded' in our hearts, and therefore also able to understand CHRIST's epistles through the Apostles to HIS churches and the Revelation, and also the Old Testament.
That is the 'Law of AGAPE' according to the written knowledge of the New Covenant/Testament to all 'born again', called to 'practice'' and 'abide' and 'bear much good fruit', for one another and the world.
As it is written;
"Your heart is above all else deceitful."
GOD bless 'you all' in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST.
You have indeed witnessed according to Grace and Truth, to distinguish between the 'spirit of error' and the 'spirit of truth', from within your own household of faith. This is not 'surprising' because the 'epistles' of the Apostles, justify and 'exposes' 'such', where the same took place during even from the 'beginning', of GOD's church.
Even JESUS faced 'such', during HIS time and said this to HIS disciples the 'similar', to be aware of, during their time, that;
"Your worst enemy will be in your own household."
Judas was chosen by CHRIST and was placed among the 'twelve', to continue HIS ministry for the Kingdom of GOD.
In regards to the 'Law and the Prophets', Apostle Paul lived them once and was bound to sin(Romans 7), and upon discovering Grace and Truth's liberty through the HOLY SPIRIT, he have already clarified them to the church, either live to be bound once again to the 'yoke if slavery' like him once before or move forward to live according to the things of the ;SPIRIT of liberty'(Romans 8).
As it s written;
"If you obey one 'letter' from the 'Law', you must also obey all."
'If you disobey even to the 'least letter' in the 'Law', you are under curse."
GOD bless you all in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST.