The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

[Joshua_Generation]

No. I wouldn't try to force by beliefs on people like that.

So you do ask women in your family when they menstruate to go outside for 7 days and not stay in the house?

 

[Eliwood]

I am not worried about my salvation in the least. My faith is in Jesus Christ and his righteousness. I received the merits of his perfect life lived on my behalf when I accepted his sacrifice.

You told me that non Sabbathkeepers are still in their sins and unsaved. I specifically asked that question to you as it was my past view. You may claim it's not your place to condemn others, but what do you believe? Are they still in their sins and unsaved or not? Can a non Sabbathkeeper be a saved person without ever keeping the Sabbath?

Well, I can't speak for God, but He does make a distinction between sinning out of ignorance, and intentional sinning. And Jesus mentioned that some people who disobey the law and teach others to do so will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven". So it seems that many who don't obey the torah will be saved, and will learn of their error after their ressurrection.

 

[sparkman]

13. If Christ said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat, why refuse to do what Christ said?

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." (Mathew 23:1-3)

Your insinuation is that Christians must obey Jews? I am uncertain why you are making such a remark. It's really rather foolish.

For one thing, Christ made that comment prior to his death and resurrection. The Old Covenant was still in effect then. The Old Covenant is not in effect now, and nor was it after the resurrection. Additionally, I would assert that a Christian MUST make a choice between being a follower of Moses, like many Hebrew Roots and legalists are, or being a follower of Christ. There is not a middle ground.

A good example of this is in John 9:28. Christ healed a young blind man. The Pharisees threw him out of the synagogue. The remark was made that "You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses".

I imagine a person could keep elements of the Law including the Sabbath as a matter of preference, but their focus must remain on Jesus Christ. It's the legalists that preach others have to keep the Sabbath or festivals as a condition or proof of salvation that are disciples of Moses. Judaizer would be another word for it.

As I've indicated, though, Christians are not under the Old Covenant. The questions I've answered before provide ample evidence of that, but here's a recapitulation:

The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17). The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11). The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4). The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17). Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10). The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).

 

[MarcR]

=Eliwood;2095658]

12. Mathew 5:17-18 specifically says that the law of God cannot change until heavens and earth pass away. So why is it so commonly taught that the law HAS changed, even though christ warned that those who promote this false teaching will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven"?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (mathew 5:17-19)

What has changed is that we who are under grace are no longer the Law; since we can only be under one or the other. Ro 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Do you present yourself before the Lord at Jerusalem 3 times a year at the appointed times? Ex 23:14-17
14 Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.
15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty
16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.
17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord God.

Most of us can't afford the fare.

13. If Christ said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat, why refuse to do what Christ said?

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." (Mathew 23:1-3)

What is called 'Moses Seat' was a stone seat in the courtyard of every synagogue in which the rabbi who was expounding on that week's portion of Scripture sat.

Jesus was obviously being sarcastic as evident when you read the text in context.

Mt 23:1-17
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

14. If Paul said that he obeyed God's law, and that there is no difference between jew and greek, how can we feel comfortable plucking small snippets out of Paul's letters, and using them to teach that the law of God has been abolished?

If you can cite Scripture that says Paul claimed he obeyed the law I will answer this question.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Well, I can't speak for God, but He does make a distinction between sinning out of ignorance, and intentional sinning. And Jesus mentioned that some people who disobey the law and teach others to do so will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven". So it seems that many who don't obey the torah will be saved, and will learn of their error after their ressurrection.

Gen 3 & 4
John 8
James 1.13-16
James 4
1 John 2

All show you that SIN is a choice and not an action.

 

[Eliwood]

@Marc

This is how you read your Bible:

blah blah blah blah blah YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE blah blah blah blah

 

[posthuman]

Don't know where you got that idea. It's not my place to condemn anyone. But if you're worried about your salvation, I will point this out to you:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left," (hebrews 10:26)

you ought to also read the beginning of this chapter:

1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.
3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins.
4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.​

7 Then I said, ​

‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’ ”

​

8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law.
9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

​

 

[sparkman]

12. Mathew 5:17-18 specifically says that the law of God cannot change until heavens and earth pass away. So why is it so commonly taught that the law HAS changed, even though christ warned that those who promote this false teaching will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven"?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (mathew 5:17-19)

When Christ said "The Law and the Prophets" he was talking about the Torah and the books of the Prophets. This is a standard phrase which refers to these books of the Old Testament. A similar phrase would be the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.

The Law refers to the Torah. The Prophets refer to the Major and Minor Prophets. The Writings refer to the Psalms and Wisdom books like Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Job.

Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets by coming to die for our sin offering and by fulfulling whatever in the Law and the Prophets were spoken about him. The whole animal sacrifice system pointed to his coming and dying as our sin offering. Many prophecies pertained to the Messiah.

With regards to "these commandments", it's talking about the ones he was speaking about at the time....the Sermon on the Mount. It is not talking about all of the laws of the Old Covenant. If that were true, it would imply that circumcision was still required. He was speaking right then and there about those commandments.

This is very clear when one understand what Law and the Prophets means. It is talking about books of the Old Testament, not about the Old Covenant law alone. It is also very clear when one realizes the context. He was speaking commandments right then and there in the Sermon on the Mount.

Your 119ministries guys really aren't very clever with their questions. I can knock each of them out in short order.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

@Marc

This is how you read your Bible:

blah blah blah blah blah YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE blah blah blah blah

young man you have been warned once. Marc R has age and wisdom on his side and you have neither.

 

[sparkman]

From my understanding, Marc happens to observe some of the same things that you do, although he's not a Judaizer. Nor is he contemptuous like you.

The difference is attitude. He does it out of preference and doesn't judge others. He is not prideful and arrogant.

I want you to remember something. If you really do come to the Lord at some point and realize your error, I want you to remember that we tried to help you see the problems with the false doctrines you've been deceived with. I wish someone had spent this kind of time with me when I was younger so I hadn't gotten caught up in Armstrongism.

Ask yourself if their teaching is really on Jesus Christ and him crucified, or if it is on legalism. Do you talk about Jesus, or do you just treat him like some side issue? It really needs to be in the center of your faith and not some minor side issue.

Also, would God approve of you making remarks to an older man like that? I can understand you saying such things to me as I've spoken very bluntly, but Marc has not treated you that way.

@Marc

This is how you read your Bible:

blah blah blah blah blah YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE blah blah blah blah

 

[Eliwood]

That did come off as a bit rude. I apologize. But when you're reading Paul's letters, you should read the passages about the law in context.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

That did come off as a bit rude. I apologize. But when you're reading Paul's letters, you should read the passages about the law in context.

You have 2 very anointed men speaking into your life and are teaching you the correct way.

I would apply James 1.19 here and be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to get angry.

 

[MarcR]

15. How can Paul be teaching people to follow God's law, but be against obeying God's law at the same time?

"Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means. Rather, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31)

Ro 3:21-31
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


NOTE THAT THE LAW IS ESTABLISHED BY FAITH NOT WORKS

16. If we are to love God by keeping His commandments, why do we keep only some of His commandments?

"This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome" (1 john 5:2-3)

17. Why does Isaiah prophesy that many will go to Jerusalemm to learn the law of God after the second coming if the law is no longer in effect?

"Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." (Isaiah 2:3)

We are now the temple of the God of Jacob (each of us individually and all of us collectively).

God's Law is now fulfilled in us by what Jesus did for us and in us; NOT by what we attempt and fail to do.

 

[Eliwood]

@Joshua
I appreciate your concern, but we should probably just agree to disagree. I like keeping torah. It adds a lot of spiritual enlightenment to my life. I've been doing it for some time now, and it's not a hindrance at all. I don't mean any disrespect to you, or anyone who thinks those commandments are no longer in effect. This subject does tend to cause a lot of arguments, but I only want to approach it as a bible study.

 

[sparkman]

11. If ALL scripture is instruction in righteousness, why do we not practice all scripture?

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

Good question..why do you not practice the same yourself?

I Tom 5:1 Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers,

This is what I was thinking about after your comments to MarcC.

In addition, Christians do consider all of Scripture, but from the light of the New Covenant. There are valuable moral principles which underlay the specific applications within the Old Covenant. To say that the Old Covenant applies to New Covenant Christians does not follow, though.

Again, I post the summary that I've posted before:


The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17). The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11). The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4). The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17). Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10). The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).

 

[sparkman]

@Joshua
I appreciate your concern, but we should probably just agree to disagree. I like keeping torah. It adds a lot of spiritual enlightenment to my life. I've been doing it for some time now, and it's not a hindrance at all. I don't mean any disrespect to you, or anyone who thinks those commandments are no longer in effect. This subject does tend to cause a lot of arguments, but I only want to approach it as a bible study.

Read the initial post that you made and ask yourself if you wanted to study or push your beliefs. It's easy to see it's the latter one. Your contempt oozes through the words. Then, when I started answering the questions, you act as though you don't want to hear the answers. Face it. You just wanted to embarrass and humiliate people who couldn't respond reasonably to you, but there are people here who can.

 

[sparkman]

10. If keeping all of God's commandments is the whole duty of man, is that no longer true?

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

The question is, what commandments? The Old Covenant is not in effect for New Covenant Christians. Same summary:

The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17). The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11). The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4). The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17). Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10). The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).

 

[sparkman]

9. If Christ walked according to law of God, and we are to follow Christ's example, why do we not also follow the law of God?

[h=1]Jesus kept the Sabbath. Shouldn't we follow his example?[/h]Jesus was a Jew, born under the law (Galatians 4:4), and he did many Jewish things:

• Attended synagogues (Luke 4:16).
• Observed Hanukkah (John 10:22).
• Told people to obey ritual laws (Matthew 8:4).
• Went to Jerusalem for the festivals (Luke 2:41).
• Gave money to support the temple (Matthew 17:27).

As a law-observant Jew, Jesus would have kept many additional customs required under the old covenant:

• Had a sukkah booth each year.
• Killed a Passover lamb each year.
• Wore tassels on his garments.

Jesus did these things, so should we follow his example in these things, too? No. We do not imitate Jesus in every detail. We don’t have to follow him like that.

Why should we follow him in one respect but not the others? We do not have to keep the Sabbath “just because Jesus kept it,” unless we find other biblical evidence that this command applies to Christians.

We should follow Jesus in his attitude of obedience. We want to obey God, but to obey the instructions he has given us, not the rules he gave someone else. We do not have to keep old covenant laws unless they also happen to apply in the new covenant age.

In other words, the example of Jesus carries no weight on its own. As the above examples show, other biblical evidence is needed to see whether his example is something we should follow, whether it is commanded for us today.

The Gospels do not preserve any example of Jesus “keeping” the Sabbath or “resting” on the Sabbath. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John apparently did not believe they needed to preserve such an example. Instead, the Gospels show Jesus breaking traditions about the Sabbath, and never teaching any restrictions. Jesus set an example of activity, not of avoiding work. Indeed, he pointed out that God himself is working (John 5:17). God himself does not keep the weekly Sabbath; it is not part of his character, and therefore not part of the eternal and universal law.

Source: https://www.gci.org/law/sabbath/example

 

[posthuman]

I like keeping torah. It adds a lot of spiritual enlightenment to my life. I've been doing it for some time now, and it's not a hindrance at all.

it's a good thing to follow what is written in the law of the old covenant.
but you should understand that if you place yourself under it as though it justifies you before God, you are liable to keep all of it - and you are certainly not doing that. (see: Galatians)
since you are not keeping all of the Law, you are not honestly "keeping Torah" like you say - but keeping parts of it and disregarding the others. if you say then that it is as commands you are following, aren't you being double-minded, and establishing yourself as a law-breaker?

doing the things in the Law is certainly not wrong. but doing them as though they justify you is denying Christ.

i don't only read, "you are not under law, but under grace" -- but i certainly don't ignore that part of the scripture either.

 

[Eliwood]

He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, (Luke 4:16)