The truth about tongues: a DIVISIVE force in Christianity today
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I understand you to be saying you do not believe the admonition to covet to prophesy applies to us. This Division between those who believe it does and those who dont will remain until Jesus comes back. Meanwhile those that believe it applies to them will ask, seek and knock and will prophecy while those who do not believe it applies to them will not. I am going to desire the gift of prophecy while still fellowshipping with my brothers and sisters who dont want to.
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I have no problem with some of what you say. In Acts 8.31 the eunuch needed a teacher. In Acts 19 the brothers had been taught by Apollos who was not as well versed as Paul. They needed a teacher. Paul (whose recorded words I do believe to be inspired) desired all Christians to have all gifts like He did because, as you see in Ephesians chapter 4, the gifts in action build the Church. But, just like any body, differing organs have different jobs to do for the function of that Body. So 1st Corinthians 12:7-11 says;
7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."
The word "manifestation" in the Greek comes from the root word that means "to make apparent". It means; "exhibition" and /or expression." That is, ALL the gifts mentioned there EXHIBIT the Holy Spirit.
As to your last question, you will note that I never made any such claim. I claim to have seen Christians simulating foreign tongues. I'm sure you have too. I've also seen some counterfeit teachers and I've met men claiming to be Apostles - who when tested, failed. I've met men who claimed to be pastors (shepherds), and all they did was rip the saints off. If you've been around a while, I'm sure you share my observations.
But, nevertheless, you address a good point. The tongues that were the subject of so much scripture in 1st Corinthians were REAL tongues - and look at the problems they caused. No other gift required so much writing as tongues. Another observation from scripture is that tongues always appear last or second last in the list of gifts (1st Cor.12:10, 28). Does the Holy Spirit mean something by doing this? Besides here and in Acts, tongues are never again mentioned in the New Testament. And probably the most sobering thought is that the Corinthians had all the gifts, and look what a mess they were in. There is hardly a book in the New Testament that has to deal with so many problems. As one pointed out, Balaam's donkey spoke in a tongue, but afterwards he was still a donkey.
7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."
The word "manifestation" in the Greek comes from the root word that means "to make apparent". It means; "exhibition" and /or expression." That is, ALL the gifts mentioned there EXHIBIT the Holy Spirit.
As to your last question, you will note that I never made any such claim. I claim to have seen Christians simulating foreign tongues. I'm sure you have too. I've also seen some counterfeit teachers and I've met men claiming to be Apostles - who when tested, failed. I've met men who claimed to be pastors (shepherds), and all they did was rip the saints off. If you've been around a while, I'm sure you share my observations.
But, nevertheless, you address a good point. The tongues that were the subject of so much scripture in 1st Corinthians were REAL tongues - and look at the problems they caused. No other gift required so much writing as tongues. Another observation from scripture is that tongues always appear last or second last in the list of gifts (1st Cor.12:10, 28). Does the Holy Spirit mean something by doing this? Besides here and in Acts, tongues are never again mentioned in the New Testament. And probably the most sobering thought is that the Corinthians had all the gifts, and look what a mess they were in. There is hardly a book in the New Testament that has to deal with so many problems. As one pointed out, Balaam's donkey spoke in a tongue, but afterwards he was still a donkey.
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The thing about prophecy is it comes in many forms and some are given most if not all forms while others are given specific forms according to their initial gifts and talents. Dreams and visions are the most common and pretty much given to most believers who desire it dreams being more common than visions but then there is those who are then called to be prophets and trust me that kind of role while very rewarding is not the easiest to travel not just because you will be hounded by people for daring to claim to be such but because it is a confusing and long walk with God that will bring you to areas you never expected.
There also is the gift of word of knowledge this also aligns with prophecy and regardless if you are called to be a prophet or not you may be promted to speak this word of knowledge by God and it doesn't always receive well.
But there is a difference in having the gift of prophecy and being a prophet however if you seek the gift God may very well call you to be his voice so just be prepared
There also is the gift of word of knowledge this also aligns with prophecy and regardless if you are called to be a prophet or not you may be promted to speak this word of knowledge by God and it doesn't always receive well.
But there is a difference in having the gift of prophecy and being a prophet however if you seek the gift God may very well call you to be his voice so just be prepared
The overall context of 1 Cor 12-14 is in the church. In meetings. In meetings, God inspires different people to do different things.
The things listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10 are never called "gifts" (the lone exception being gifts of healing). They are the nine manifestations of the singular gift of holy spirit, which every Christian has.
Why do you think they were "simulating" tongues? Tongues can obviously be done improperly, which is one of the reasons 1 Cor 14 was written. The Corinthians were out of order. Everyone was speaking at once, and nobody was interpreting (like some groups do today).
People who teach that tongues have ceased, while not necessarily counterfeit, are wrong.
Yep. There are wolves among the flock.
Why do people insist that tongues being spoken today are not "REAL" tongues?
Which is why people need to be taught.
Tongues is not a gift, it is one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit, something God wants all Christians to do (1 Cor 14:5).
No. Generally, people who believe tongues have ceased apply this reasoning to tongues in an attempt to prove it's not important. Again, Paul said (by divine inspiration) that he would like all Christians to speak in tongues, and even more to prophesy.
So what? Also, the case can be made that when the Bible talks about praying in the spirit (Eph 6:18; Jude 20) that it's talking about speaking in tongues (cp 1 Cor 14:15).
Every Christian has the ability to operate ALL the manifestations.
Yes. Again, people need to be taught. Remember, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
What is your point here, other than to minimize and discredit tongues?
The things listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10 are never called "gifts" (the lone exception being gifts of healing). They are the nine manifestations of the singular gift of holy spirit, which every Christian has.
Why do you think they were "simulating" tongues? Tongues can obviously be done improperly, which is one of the reasons 1 Cor 14 was written. The Corinthians were out of order. Everyone was speaking at once, and nobody was interpreting (like some groups do today).
People who teach that tongues have ceased, while not necessarily counterfeit, are wrong.
Yep. There are wolves among the flock.
Why do people insist that tongues being spoken today are not "REAL" tongues?
Which is why people need to be taught.
Tongues is not a gift, it is one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit, something God wants all Christians to do (1 Cor 14:5).
No. Generally, people who believe tongues have ceased apply this reasoning to tongues in an attempt to prove it's not important. Again, Paul said (by divine inspiration) that he would like all Christians to speak in tongues, and even more to prophesy.
So what? Also, the case can be made that when the Bible talks about praying in the spirit (Eph 6:18; Jude 20) that it's talking about speaking in tongues (cp 1 Cor 14:15).
Every Christian has the ability to operate ALL the manifestations.
Yes. Again, people need to be taught. Remember, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
What is your point here, other than to minimize and discredit tongues?
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I have just joined Christian Chat, and this is my first post. I want to generally share my experience with and understanding of tongues.
There have been three or four times when I was in churches where someone spoke out in a tongue and someone they didn't know understood the message given just for them, spoken in their native language. The person who spoke didn't know the language and had no idea what language it was. This happened with different speakers and recipients, in two different churches.
One time was in a Charismatic Greek church in Athens, Greece. Some Christian sailors were in port and came to worship with us. They spoke English and their native language, Lebanese or Arabic, best I can recall. At a point during the service, a Greek woman spoke a message in tongues. One of the sailors then said it was a message for them, and it was spoken fluently in their language. He was very moved by the message. He asked the woman if she knew the language, and she said she had no idea what language it was, and never had learned it.
The other two or three times it happened were at a church in the US, and the incidents were very much the same as the above.
This is a way that tongues is a sign for a non-believer or outsider.
Here are some positive points about speaking in tongues:
1 Cor 14:4 Speaking in tongues edifies the speaker (that's a good thing!)
1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. AND 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. Paul makes a distinction between tongues used in a group and personally/for prayer. In the church, the gift goes along with interpretation so that all may understand. Personally, Paul prayed in tongues a lot! And he shows that it wasn't always languages that he had ever learned by saying his mind is unfruitful when he prays in tongues. It's not a bad thing that his mind isn't engaged, though, because it is his born-again, God imbued spirit praying.
Jude 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Praying in the Holy Ghost is in the spirit, which Paul in 1 Cor 14 made clear was or included praying in tongues. We edify ourselves when we pray in tongues, and we pray what is on the Holy Spirit's mind.
A couple of testimonies here about praying in tongues.
1) A friend was a new Christian and she had begun speaking in tongues. She was praying daily for people and situations, praying part of the time in tongues. She began praying with a great burden and prayed for maybe 45 minutes to an hour in tongues with this burden. She noticed a word in what she was praying kept coming up and seemed important. Finally, she felt she'd prayed what she should and finished. A few days later, she had the news on and one of the items was about a little island having been in a civil war and the more-righteous side had won it's freedom. The name of the island was the word she had noticed over and over in her passionate prayer in tongues. Her mind was unfruitful, but her Holy Spirit led spirit prayed what was His will.
2) Back in April, 2007, I was praying, and I spent a bit of time praying in tongues. I began to have a gut-wrenching burden and prayed for a long while with crying. There came a point when I felt to sing, but Spirit-led singing. I sang something like, "Is there anything sadder than Ramah crying for her children?"
Once I felt I'd prayed all I could, I looked to find where the Bible talked of Ramah and her children. I found it in Jeremiah 31:
15 This is what the Lord says:
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.”
This prayer was on Saturday. Two days later the shooting at VPI happened. I immediately felt that was what I had prayed for. 32 student/teachers were killed, and 17 wounded. God's Spirit knew what to pray for; I didn't.
Praying in tongues is a very valuable gift from God.
There have been three or four times when I was in churches where someone spoke out in a tongue and someone they didn't know understood the message given just for them, spoken in their native language. The person who spoke didn't know the language and had no idea what language it was. This happened with different speakers and recipients, in two different churches.
One time was in a Charismatic Greek church in Athens, Greece. Some Christian sailors were in port and came to worship with us. They spoke English and their native language, Lebanese or Arabic, best I can recall. At a point during the service, a Greek woman spoke a message in tongues. One of the sailors then said it was a message for them, and it was spoken fluently in their language. He was very moved by the message. He asked the woman if she knew the language, and she said she had no idea what language it was, and never had learned it.
The other two or three times it happened were at a church in the US, and the incidents were very much the same as the above.
This is a way that tongues is a sign for a non-believer or outsider.
Here are some positive points about speaking in tongues:
1 Cor 14:4 Speaking in tongues edifies the speaker (that's a good thing!)
1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. AND 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. Paul makes a distinction between tongues used in a group and personally/for prayer. In the church, the gift goes along with interpretation so that all may understand. Personally, Paul prayed in tongues a lot! And he shows that it wasn't always languages that he had ever learned by saying his mind is unfruitful when he prays in tongues. It's not a bad thing that his mind isn't engaged, though, because it is his born-again, God imbued spirit praying.
Jude 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Praying in the Holy Ghost is in the spirit, which Paul in 1 Cor 14 made clear was or included praying in tongues. We edify ourselves when we pray in tongues, and we pray what is on the Holy Spirit's mind.
A couple of testimonies here about praying in tongues.
1) A friend was a new Christian and she had begun speaking in tongues. She was praying daily for people and situations, praying part of the time in tongues. She began praying with a great burden and prayed for maybe 45 minutes to an hour in tongues with this burden. She noticed a word in what she was praying kept coming up and seemed important. Finally, she felt she'd prayed what she should and finished. A few days later, she had the news on and one of the items was about a little island having been in a civil war and the more-righteous side had won it's freedom. The name of the island was the word she had noticed over and over in her passionate prayer in tongues. Her mind was unfruitful, but her Holy Spirit led spirit prayed what was His will.
2) Back in April, 2007, I was praying, and I spent a bit of time praying in tongues. I began to have a gut-wrenching burden and prayed for a long while with crying. There came a point when I felt to sing, but Spirit-led singing. I sang something like, "Is there anything sadder than Ramah crying for her children?"
Once I felt I'd prayed all I could, I looked to find where the Bible talked of Ramah and her children. I found it in Jeremiah 31:
15 This is what the Lord says:
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.”
This prayer was on Saturday. Two days later the shooting at VPI happened. I immediately felt that was what I had prayed for. 32 student/teachers were killed, and 17 wounded. God's Spirit knew what to pray for; I didn't.
Praying in tongues is a very valuable gift from God.
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Correct. That was THEN. This is now. Proof?
PROPHECIES WOULD CEASE ("FAIL" KATARGEO = CEASE)
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail [καταργηθήσονται ( katargēthēsontai) = they will be done away]; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Cor 13:8)
ADDITIONAL PROPHECIES FORBIDDEN AFTER REVELATION
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (Rev 22:18)
So the book of Revelation closed both prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge. There are no modern apostles and prophets. Just evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
PROPHECIES WOULD CEASE ("FAIL" KATARGEO = CEASE)
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail [καταργηθήσονται ( katargēthēsontai) = they will be done away]; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Cor 13:8)
ADDITIONAL PROPHECIES FORBIDDEN AFTER REVELATION
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (Rev 22:18)
So the book of Revelation closed both prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge. There are no modern apostles and prophets. Just evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
That is proof tongues SHALL cease, not that they HAVE ceased.
Operating the manifestation of prophecy is not adding to scripture. It is speaking to people words of edification, exhortation, and comfort (1 Cor 14:3). We all need that, even you. And there are still people with the ministries of an apostle and a prophet.
Operating the manifestation of prophecy is not adding to scripture. It is speaking to people words of edification, exhortation, and comfort (1 Cor 14:3). We all need that, even you. And there are still people with the ministries of an apostle and a prophet.
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S
They will cease when that which is perfect is come when we see him face to face and know as we are known in perfect knowledge and in that day we will not need the gifts of the spirit such as tongues and interpretations, prophesy, or words of knowledge.
but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. ...12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
It is not hard to grasp the meaning.
As to quoting Rev 22:18
The book of revelation does not forbid Christians to operate in the gift of prophesy but is saying do not add or take from this book of prophecy that John wrote. The Holy Ghost gift of prophesy in the New Testement church was not considered scripture. Those that gave a prophesy in the church at Corinth taking turns did not record their prophesy as scripture. It was meant for exhortation at the local level and never was it considered the same as scripture so that is not a valid argument.
In order to use Rev 22:18 as your proof that prophesy had ceased You would first have to demonstrate that anyone in the new testament church thought that the gift of prophesy Paul said they should all covet was of the same authority of the book of Revelation in order to argue that it needed to cease when Revelation was written.
The gift of prophecy for exhortation and comfort continued until it faded because of lukewarmness and unbelief. That is the only reason it faded out. It was revived by faith and study of the scripture. Faith comes by hearing the word on the subject. It is alive and well and will continue to be given to those that ask, seek and knock. Tongues faded from the church over time because people fell away from the Lord in many areas and stopped believing in the gifts.
That which was perfect was not the book of Revelation or the completed canon as it did not line up with 1 cor 13 description of seeing him Face to Face as we will after the resurrection. History proves that within 500 years the church entered into a very dark age of apostasy and superstition. Far from the age of maturity that ceasasionist claim the canon of scripture would bring that would make the gifts not needed. They needed them more than ever but their gross darkness made them forgotten until the time of reformation when saints rediscovered the scriptures on the subject and begin to preach them again finally catching fire at the beginning of the 1900s and now spread all over the world. This MOVEMENT will not cease until that which is perfect is come the Lord Jesus Christ when we see him face to face and will no longer know in part.
but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. ...12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
It is not possible that Paul could have meant that completion of Revelation being both a prophesy in part and that which is perfect is come at the same time now could he? Therefore if you believe that the book of revelation completion of Canon is that which is perfect is come then you must concede that prophesy in part is something else, namely a different kind of gift of prophecy in the church. You cannot quote Rev 22:18 as referring to prophesy in part in the church unless you are calling the book of Revelation prophecy in part and in competition with prophesy in the church. Therefore leaving that bad hermeneutic let us address the other bad hermenuetic of calling the book of Revelation that which is perfect is come. It is impossible that Paul intended that meaning when he wrote 1 cor 13 because no scholar worth his credentials will agree with you that Paul had any idea that there would be a canon of completed new testament scriptures at the time that he wrote it. Nor would his readers have ever understood that as his meaning. However Paul spoke frequently about reaching forth to that perfection that would come after the resurrection which he followed after and this his readers also understood from the theology he preached howbeit he taught nothing about a coming collected canon of scripture. Most ceasationists now days have stopped teaching that that which is perfect is come is canon of scripture because they know it causes them to lose all credibility in the eyes of their non pentecostal peers. It is bad hermeneutics. Now most are using the fact that the gifts faded from the church in history as their main argument. And I have already addressed that as due to the lukewarmness and ignorance that prevailed for a 1000 years before the reformation.
but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. ...12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
It is not hard to grasp the meaning.
As to quoting Rev 22:18
The book of revelation does not forbid Christians to operate in the gift of prophesy but is saying do not add or take from this book of prophecy that John wrote. The Holy Ghost gift of prophesy in the New Testement church was not considered scripture. Those that gave a prophesy in the church at Corinth taking turns did not record their prophesy as scripture. It was meant for exhortation at the local level and never was it considered the same as scripture so that is not a valid argument.
In order to use Rev 22:18 as your proof that prophesy had ceased You would first have to demonstrate that anyone in the new testament church thought that the gift of prophesy Paul said they should all covet was of the same authority of the book of Revelation in order to argue that it needed to cease when Revelation was written.
The gift of prophecy for exhortation and comfort continued until it faded because of lukewarmness and unbelief. That is the only reason it faded out. It was revived by faith and study of the scripture. Faith comes by hearing the word on the subject. It is alive and well and will continue to be given to those that ask, seek and knock. Tongues faded from the church over time because people fell away from the Lord in many areas and stopped believing in the gifts.
That which was perfect was not the book of Revelation or the completed canon as it did not line up with 1 cor 13 description of seeing him Face to Face as we will after the resurrection. History proves that within 500 years the church entered into a very dark age of apostasy and superstition. Far from the age of maturity that ceasasionist claim the canon of scripture would bring that would make the gifts not needed. They needed them more than ever but their gross darkness made them forgotten until the time of reformation when saints rediscovered the scriptures on the subject and begin to preach them again finally catching fire at the beginning of the 1900s and now spread all over the world. This MOVEMENT will not cease until that which is perfect is come the Lord Jesus Christ when we see him face to face and will no longer know in part.
but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. ...12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
It is not possible that Paul could have meant that completion of Revelation being both a prophesy in part and that which is perfect is come at the same time now could he? Therefore if you believe that the book of revelation completion of Canon is that which is perfect is come then you must concede that prophesy in part is something else, namely a different kind of gift of prophecy in the church. You cannot quote Rev 22:18 as referring to prophesy in part in the church unless you are calling the book of Revelation prophecy in part and in competition with prophesy in the church. Therefore leaving that bad hermeneutic let us address the other bad hermenuetic of calling the book of Revelation that which is perfect is come. It is impossible that Paul intended that meaning when he wrote 1 cor 13 because no scholar worth his credentials will agree with you that Paul had any idea that there would be a canon of completed new testament scriptures at the time that he wrote it. Nor would his readers have ever understood that as his meaning. However Paul spoke frequently about reaching forth to that perfection that would come after the resurrection which he followed after and this his readers also understood from the theology he preached howbeit he taught nothing about a coming collected canon of scripture. Most ceasationists now days have stopped teaching that that which is perfect is come is canon of scripture because they know it causes them to lose all credibility in the eyes of their non pentecostal peers. It is bad hermeneutics. Now most are using the fact that the gifts faded from the church in history as their main argument. And I have already addressed that as due to the lukewarmness and ignorance that prevailed for a 1000 years before the reformation.
I can't help but point out what Christ or God through Christ said "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;" New tongues.. NEW? I can hear it already "what Jesus really meant" 
Now we can toss in every other verse we want. But when He spoke this there was NO NT. And when He said "these signs WILL follow those who believe". He can not lie. So.. if He can't lie..and these signs shall/will follow them that believe. We really need to start asking our selfs not others.. do we really believe?
After Christ went up.. they would ask ..have you received the holy Spirit since you believe. Now.. we can back up to what Christ said..you being evil know how to give good gifts to your Children how much more will your heavenly Father give the holy spirit to those that ask Him.
For me if John 3:16-17 is something we believe.. I would think what He said in Luke should be taken as truth and believed also. I had no clue what the holy Spirit was..but I was saved. In the bible study they just asked if I wanted it. One night I said yes. They then took the bible and read ONLY what was written. Asked again if I wanted it and I said yes. They prayed.. and then for no reason stopped. Said "thats it you got it" see they knew that Jesus can not lie. That if you just ASK you got it. HE said so. And NO ONE said a word. I got up and the second I go to sit down.. BAM! Tongues just came out .So Christ can not lie "but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; " He said it..not me.
There is more sin more evil more sickness in this world today and to say that which is perfect is come, happened already. Is not true. What do you exect God to do if we doubt? Its very wise but...who is saying its not for today....its gone, dead? Not the bible. Its some person just like you and me. Read the bible.. and they just share what they personally believe. I read what He said.. and I believe HIM. And He is MORE real then you or I am. He is more real then your parents your spouse and kids or best friend. He talks more then anyone you know. The KEY is? FIATH. To reach this.. you will have to step out where you can't see feel or hear. And there is NO OTHER WAY to please Him. WHATS going to happen if you just BELIEVE his word? Start small. Don't wait till something awful happens and then try to believe. So many do this. They never work their faith.
Like healing.. HEALING IS GONE! Yet.. Jesus said "your FAITH has made you whole". Pushing over some carts The woman with the issue of blood ...What did happened before that? Seemed she CONFESSED something..ooh was it positive confession? "For she said, “If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made whole". She didn't even touch Him. Yet said I shall be made whole. Who talks like that? Wait GOD does. "He calls those things that be not as though they were". Wait.. didn't JESUS even say the same thing? What ever you desire when your pray.. believe you receive it and you shall have it.
Your saved why? FAITH. You believe yet you feel hear see nothing. Holy Spirit.. He said.. ask the Father He will give it to you. You ask.. and know He will do it. He can't lie. WHY would you listen to man over Him? Is HE REAL or not? TRUTH..Right here infront of you.. if you ask for a fish He wont give you a rock "If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish?"
So when you read what HE said.. you believe.. for He is NOT like man. He will give you just what HE said He would. Doubt? "For let that man not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord." He said it. As long as we doubt do not believe.. well God through James warned us 2000 years ago
Now we can toss in every other verse we want. But when He spoke this there was NO NT. And when He said "these signs WILL follow those who believe". He can not lie. So.. if He can't lie..and these signs shall/will follow them that believe. We really need to start asking our selfs not others.. do we really believe?
After Christ went up.. they would ask ..have you received the holy Spirit since you believe. Now.. we can back up to what Christ said..you being evil know how to give good gifts to your Children how much more will your heavenly Father give the holy spirit to those that ask Him.
For me if John 3:16-17 is something we believe.. I would think what He said in Luke should be taken as truth and believed also. I had no clue what the holy Spirit was..but I was saved. In the bible study they just asked if I wanted it. One night I said yes. They then took the bible and read ONLY what was written. Asked again if I wanted it and I said yes. They prayed.. and then for no reason stopped. Said "thats it you got it" see they knew that Jesus can not lie. That if you just ASK you got it. HE said so. And NO ONE said a word. I got up and the second I go to sit down.. BAM! Tongues just came out .So Christ can not lie "but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; " He said it..not me.
There is more sin more evil more sickness in this world today and to say that which is perfect is come, happened already. Is not true. What do you exect God to do if we doubt? Its very wise but...who is saying its not for today....its gone, dead? Not the bible. Its some person just like you and me. Read the bible.. and they just share what they personally believe. I read what He said.. and I believe HIM. And He is MORE real then you or I am. He is more real then your parents your spouse and kids or best friend. He talks more then anyone you know. The KEY is? FIATH. To reach this.. you will have to step out where you can't see feel or hear. And there is NO OTHER WAY to please Him. WHATS going to happen if you just BELIEVE his word? Start small. Don't wait till something awful happens and then try to believe. So many do this. They never work their faith.
Like healing.. HEALING IS GONE! Yet.. Jesus said "your FAITH has made you whole". Pushing over some carts
The woman with the issue of blood ...What did happened before that? Seemed she CONFESSED something..ooh was it positive confession? "For she said, “If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made whole". She didn't even touch Him. Yet said I shall be made whole. Who talks like that? Wait GOD does. "He calls those things that be not as though they were". Wait.. didn't JESUS even say the same thing? What ever you desire when your pray.. believe you receive it and you shall have it. Your saved why? FAITH. You believe yet you feel hear see nothing. Holy Spirit.. He said.. ask the Father He will give it to you. You ask.. and know He will do it. He can't lie. WHY would you listen to man over Him? Is HE REAL or not? TRUTH..Right here infront of you.. if you ask for a fish He wont give you a rock "If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish?"
So when you read what HE said.. you believe.. for He is NOT like man. He will give you just what HE said He would. Doubt? "For let that man not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord." He said it. As long as we doubt do not believe.. well God through James warned us 2000 years ago
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How can it be bad hermeneutics when Paul did NOT say "When HE who is perfect is come?" And several translations have correctly shown "perfect" as "complete" (meaning the complete written Bible). Depending on context, either meaning applies.
International Standard Version
But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.
World English Bible
but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.
The point which everyone dodges is the fact that Paul selected only THREE spiritual gifts for cessation (out of about 20). If he had been talking about the termination of all spiritual gifts, he would have said so. But he selected the three gifts connected with divine revelation which would cease. And prophecy s strictly divine revelation. This ties in with Revelation 22:18 -- NO MORE PROPHECIES. And the writings of the Early Church Fathers confirm this fact. Not one of them claimed to be an apostle, or a prophet, or a tongues-speaker. That makes for a very strong case for the cessation of those three gifts.
It was only in the early 20th century when some Christians decided that babbling is the same as the biblical gift of tongues. And since Paul clearly said that not all would speak in tongues, the whole Tongues Movement is a sham.
International Standard Version
But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.
World English Bible
but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.
The point which everyone dodges is the fact that Paul selected only THREE spiritual gifts for cessation (out of about 20). If he had been talking about the termination of all spiritual gifts, he would have said so. But he selected the three gifts connected with divine revelation which would cease. And prophecy s strictly divine revelation. This ties in with Revelation 22:18 -- NO MORE PROPHECIES. And the writings of the Early Church Fathers confirm this fact. Not one of them claimed to be an apostle, or a prophet, or a tongues-speaker. That makes for a very strong case for the cessation of those three gifts.
It was only in the early 20th century when some Christians decided that babbling is the same as the biblical gift of tongues. And since Paul clearly said that not all would speak in tongues, the whole Tongues Movement is a sham.
This is a strawman. You are stating something you believe as though it was a fact. It's not. "The completeness" does not mean "the complete written Bible". It's just something you believe because you are a cessationist.
Tongues, prophecy, and word of knowledge are not gifts, they are manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Tongues and prophecy are not "divine revelation". Tongues is a person speaking TO God (1 Cor 14:2). Prophecy are words of edification, exhortation, and comfort to the church (1 Cor 14:3). The manifestation of prophecy is not further revelation to add to the Bible. Getting a word of knowledge is revelation, but again, it is not to add to the Bible. It is God giving you information about something.
Since you do not know that tongues, prophecy, and a word of knowledge are for, your conclusion is faulty, and wrong.
You do not understand what tongues is. You are afraid of it. So you diss it.
Now THAT is not a rational statement. That's like saying because not all people are good drivers, nobody should drive.
Tongues, prophecy, and word of knowledge are not gifts, they are manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Tongues and prophecy are not "divine revelation". Tongues is a person speaking TO God (1 Cor 14:2). Prophecy are words of edification, exhortation, and comfort to the church (1 Cor 14:3). The manifestation of prophecy is not further revelation to add to the Bible. Getting a word of knowledge is revelation, but again, it is not to add to the Bible. It is God giving you information about something.
Since you do not know that tongues, prophecy, and a word of knowledge are for, your conclusion is faulty, and wrong.
You do not understand what tongues is. You are afraid of it. So you diss it.
Now THAT is not a rational statement. That's like saying because not all people are good drivers, nobody should drive.
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S
That which is perfect is when we have been transfigured and inherit perfection and can endure face to face interaction with Him who dwells in the light which no man can approach unto in their natural state. That state of perfection which will come, which we hope for which we have a down payment of in gifts of prophesy and tongues and interpretation but will receive the fullness of later at which time we will not longer need these gifts because then when that which is perfect as it relates to our glorification, graduation, fullness of knowledge is come we will not need them. We will know in perfection we will not know partially as we do now. Your bad hermeneutics will be perfected then. You will then know that you misapplied Rev 22:18 as a ban on the gift of prophecy in the church even though you should be able to know that now; everyone else does.
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Fallacy: false dichotomy. These are not the only two possible options.
Fallacy: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
To you, obviously. For those of us who read Revelation 22:18 as pertaining to the book of Revelation, rather than all of Scripture, it does not make a very strong case.
Fallacy: non sequitur. Tongues isn't a "movement" and Paul's statement informs the use of the gift, not its absence.
I would encourage you to spend a few hours studying logical fallacies. You might learn to avoid using them in your arguments.
Fallacy: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
To you, obviously. For those of us who read Revelation 22:18 as pertaining to the book of Revelation, rather than all of Scripture, it does not make a very strong case.
Fallacy: non sequitur. Tongues isn't a "movement" and Paul's statement informs the use of the gift, not its absence.
I would encourage you to spend a few hours studying logical fallacies. You might learn to avoid using them in your arguments.
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You do realize that none of the evidence you presented here says what you are trying to say? The first opne says they will ened but it never said when or even how did it? the second one is just irritational and not a very well done attempt to make it imply your argument, revelations even says right there whoever adds to this book. The bible is not one book it is a mass collection of books we say the book of revelation on here all the time even you have said it. This has nothing to do with speaking prophecy or tongues your first verse does a better job of that than the second one presented.
S
It does say WHEN they will cease. It says "when that which is perfect is come" That is clear.
The interpretation that it means the completion of the bible is not embraced by most theologians today. It has been almost unanimously discredited by most cessationists (those who believe the gifts have ceased rarely use this interpretation any longer because they know it is hermeneutically impossible to support it.) To insist on that interpretation reflects negatively on one as though they were not willing to be intellectually honest.
The interpretation that it means the completion of the bible is not embraced by most theologians today. It has been almost unanimously discredited by most cessationists (those who believe the gifts have ceased rarely use this interpretation any longer because they know it is hermeneutically impossible to support it.) To insist on that interpretation reflects negatively on one as though they were not willing to be intellectually honest.
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The thing is one can say it is complete and in a sense it is after revelation no other author wrote scripture so in that sense the bible itself was complete. However it is not completely fulfilled even the fact people still believe the tribulation and rapture and the 1000 years reign proves this is not the case.
If bible proophesy has yet to be fulfilled then how can prophecy have ceased?
If bible proophesy has yet to be fulfilled then how can prophecy have ceased?