I don't want t get on the personal issue with Joe Biden. But he supports abortion and his policies are today greatly supporting it. even the RCC said that.
The Trinity Doctrine in the Bible
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I don't want t get on the personal issue with Joe Biden. But he supports abortion and his policies are today greatly supporting it. even the RCC said that.
think you are not able to comprehend the difference between the word of God showing those in heaven praying and
the word of God NOT showing anyone alive in the Bible praying to a dead, passed, alive no more, elder, patriarch, or SAINT.
If you can show me where in the Bible a person who was alive and praying did not mention God and called a prophet or a past saint I will concede.
yet Joe Biden doesn't know what he supports anymore he is sucking apple sauce.
I’ve already provided biblical proof of it occurring IN HEAVEN. This belief of asking Christians in heaven to pray for us goes all the way back to the beginning of Christianity. It is a prominent subject in just about every early church father’s writings (1st-4th century). I hope you will study what the Communion of the Saints is.
You showed your interpretation of Revelation 5:8. Unfortunately, your interpretation is wrong, because you wrongly conclude that the saints (who offered the prayers mentioned) are already in heaven. The text doesn't say that at all.
That is literally the setting of that chapter. Where is this worship occuring that these elders are giving to God who is sitting on his throne?
Do I need to cite Protestant theologians that say it’s in heaven? Cause I definitely can
You have the "where" part correct; the setting is indeed in heaven. You are assuming that the saints offering the prayers are also in heaven, but there is nothing in the text to support that assumption.
the communication in heaven between those dead and those alive on earth is non -existent in the word of God.
Your comment is not proof it is nothing but RCC's false doctrine. The dates you can place all you want from 36 AD to 95 AD it is not in the words of those who Christ called. There are many things that are happening in even that you nor I will know on this side of life.
You one verse in the whole Bible to show saints praying in heaven but you have 0 for showing those Christians on earth praying to those in heaven. And you dismiss the very Model of prayer Give to us by the Lord Jesus Christ.
it is very strange the lord Jesus failed to mention the ability to pray to the dead saints when the disciples came to Jesus and asked Him to teach them to pray WOW!
Jesus said When you pray call out to Abraham, and Mary my mother, He did not Jesus did not teach that in His model of prayer.
Matthew 6:5-13
5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place;
Here was a great opportunity for Jesus to slide in those dead saints to pray to BUT HE did not even mention them why?
and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.
Wow, you mean Jesus that my Father in heaven knows what I need before I even ask it? Are you sure I am not to pray to one of those dead prophets?
Jesus said then:
9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven(no dead saints here)
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
You are wrong and in error, you have taken your RCC position and made it something Jesus did not teach Jesus is the final authority
Not the pope, Billy Graham, not Orgien, Polycarp, Clement, or any other church father. The Lord Jesus Christ gave the model of prayer and HE did not say ask the dead anything. Am sure you are a nice person but teaching that dead saints is ok to pray to when Jesus never said in His model of prayer is error ad false teaching.
You have to go back to Rev Ch 4:4
“Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders,* clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads.”
Those are the same 24 elders offering the prayers to God.
Yes, and?
5:8 doesn't say "the prayers of the elders"; it says "the prayers of the saints."
I actually just provided the proof that the 24 elders were seated around God’s throne in the post after this last reply from you. Do you not think God’s throne is in heaven?
NO, YOU DID NOT, you did not address Jesus who taught the disciples to pray and how HE did not even mention praying at all to dead saints. it is foolishness and RCC will not be taught or accepted in this setting or anywhere on CC. You and "Allhereticsnotsaved" are being informed.
Thank you.
The elders are offering God the prayers of the saints. Who are these saints is what your asking? These are the saints (Christians) on Earth (the ones who pray to God). It’s how Paul refers to the Christians he addresses in every epistle.
Please post the chapter and verse and please tell me how you establish a normative in scripture when the context of Prayer that was well stated in two Gospel Matthew and luke as how to pray was not addressed By the Lord Jesus Christ?
are the church fathers more authoritative than the word of Jesus? Yes or no?
That doesn't appear anywhere in the bible so how do you say it's "clear"?
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
The elders do hold the vials of prayers but they don't offer those prayers to God. It is however very clear who does that:
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
It is an angel that offers the prayers to God, not the elders as you claimed.
Let me know if there is anything else I can correct for you.
B
Blackpowderduelist
Guest
Arians were rampant in the 3rd and 4th century.
Some Protestant churches do teach church history, it's just the revivalists who don't
That should be 'E' for excellence. Your argument has been fully refuted and put to rest.