The Trinity according to the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD

[Deuteronomy]

7) in their union each nature preserves its distinct attributes (Jesus is all human and all God) is obviously in error. All God means totally God, not partially God.

Hello yet again CorrectiveLens, let's talk about the Father for a second in regard to all of this. You believe that He (the Father) is both omniscient and omnipotent, yes? IOW, there is nothing that He does not know, and nothing that He cannot do, yes?

Assuming that your answers to my last two questions are both "yes", then I'm fairly certain that, like me, you believe that the Father could choose to set aside part of His Divine attributes if He wanted to do so (because if He could not do so, how could He be considered omnipotent?). So, the only remaining question is this, if He did so, if He chose (for instance) to set aside part of His omniscience to forget something for our sakes, do you believe that He would still be "All God" afterwards (as this appears to be something that He does, in fact, do for us, yes)?

My thinking about this, about God choosing/being able to set aside part of His Divine attributes, either temporarily or permanently, is something that would confirm who He is for me, that He is indeed, God (who can do WHATEVER He desires). As some of the Scriptures say (OT/NT) in regard to this,

​

Isaiah 43​

25 “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins.” ​

​

Hebrews 8​

12 “I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.” ​

​

So, I'm pretty sure that the Lord Jesus (assuming for the moment at least that He is the one, true God, just like His Father is) would be able to do so as well, and still be "ALL" God.

Just a thought! Please let me know what yours are too.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

 

[Deuteronomy]

The Father is so pleased with the Son that He calls Christ "a God", and gives Him a kingdom (the Church) that makes up His spiritual body of righteous saints with Him as the head.

That statement in bold reminds me of something from the JW's Bible (The "New World Translation", that is, in John 1:1), by which I mean it sounds a bit polytheistic.

However, God told us things like this,

Isaiah 43​

10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, ​

“And My servant whom I have chosen, ​

In order that you may know and believe Me ​

And understand that I am He. ​

Before Me there was no God formed, ​

And there will be none after Me. ​

11 “I, even I, am the LORD, ​

And there is no Savior besides Me.” ​

​

If the Lord Jesus is not God the Son from everlasting, but a created being instead, He is not/never will or can be "God", so if the Father designated Him as such (which He actually does in the Scriptures as you know), this would be, at best, deceptive on His part (and it would seem to make some of the things that He tells, like you see in the passage from Isaiah above, seem like lies).

Thanks!

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - one last thing, who do you believe is sitting on the Throne in this little passage from Isaiah 6:1-4? Thanks again

 

[wattie]

I know people dont take kindly to Jesus words, and I dread any arguments but I do recall Him saying this

John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

Greater as in position.. Jesus was not in heaven.. the Father was at the time. Jesus ascended to be one with the Father a bit later.

This is not a verse about the Father being a greater being.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Greater as in position.. Jesus was not in heaven.. the Father was at the time. Jesus ascended to be one with the Father a bit later.

This is not a verse about the Father being a greater being.

So when He says:

John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

It means He is not...

What about this? Yahshua takes the scroll out of the hand of YHWH

Revelation 5:1-10,And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, Eze 2:10 having been sealed with seven seals.And I saw a strong messenger proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loosen its seals?”And no one in the heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.And I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.And one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. See, the Lion of the tribe of Yehuḏah,a the Root of Dawiḏ,b overcame to open the scroll and to loosen its seven seals.” (Gen 49:9-10, Heb 7:14. bIsa 11:1 and Isa 11:10) .And I looked and saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing, as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of Elohim sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him sitting on the throne.And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the set-apart ones.And they sang a renewed song, saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals, because You were slain, and have redeemed us to Elohim by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and made us sovereigns and priests to our Elohim, and we shall reign upon the earth.” (Dan 7:18-27.)

 

[wattie]

Hi Locopony. Since the Father put all things under Christ's feet except himself, and all authority and power comes from the Father, that tells me that Christ is my Lord, my God, and my Savior, but the Father is the one God of all including Christ. How many times have you read, " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"?
Psalms 45: 6-7 Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of thy kingdom is a right scepter. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness; therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. The Father is so pleased with the Son that He calls Christ a God, and gives Him a kingdom (the Church) that makes up His spiritual body of righteous saints with Him as the head.

The Kingdom of God and the church.. are different entities. The church -- ecclessia.. is means 'called out'. Jesus and His disciples had all the work of the first New Testament church. The church-- like 'the dog'..... 'the cat'.... 'the horse' is singular standing for plural churches.

'The horse is a magnificent animal'

That is either of one horse in particular.. local and visible.. or represents all horses.. local and visible horses.

So.. Jesus and His disciples.. visible and local. Church at Jerusalem... visible and local. Church at Antioch... visible and local. Church at Ephesus.... visible and local. Ephesus... visible and local. Phillipi... visible and local.

NOT THE BUILDING that these congregations each met in! But a community of saved, baptised believers who joined as a NT church.

Further proof..

Matthew 16:18--- compare with Matthew 18:20... What kind of church is in question?

It can be spoken to.. the members of it are already believers... it has a process of discipline for a sinning brother.. and has Jesus as the Head. That's a local New Testament church.

 

[wattie]

So when He says:

John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

It means He is not...

What about this? Yahshua takes the scroll out of the hand of YHWH

Revelation 5:1-10,And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, Eze 2:10 having been sealed with seven seals.And I saw a strong messenger proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loosen its seals?”And no one in the heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.And I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.And one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. See, the Lion of the tribe of Yehuḏah,a the Root of Dawiḏ,b overcame to open the scroll and to loosen its seven seals.” (Gen 49:9-10, Heb 7:14. bIsa 11:1 and Isa 11:10) .And I looked and saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing, as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of Elohim sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him sitting on the throne.And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the set-apart ones.And they sang a renewed song, saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals, because You were slain, and have redeemed us to Elohim by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and made us sovereigns and priests to our Elohim, and we shall reign upon the earth.” (Dan 7:18-27.)

You've gotta put these verses in their right context. Compare for example other verses that call Jesus God. Eg.. Emmanuel... meaning God with us. Or when Thomas declares Jesus to be his God.

Yahshua taking the scroll out of the hand of the Father.. doesn't mean Yahshua is unequal or lesser. Again.. compare it with who is talking to the seven churches in Revelation. It is the Father.. Jesus and the Holy Spirit.. and they are on equal terms.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

You've gotta put these verses in their right context. Compare for example other verses that call Jesus God. Eg.. Emmanuel... meaning God with us. Or when Thomas declares Jesus to be his God.

Yahshua taking the scroll out of the hand of the Father.. doesn't mean Yahshua is unequal or lesser. Again.. compare it with who is talking to the seven churches in Revelation. It is the Father.. Jesus and the Holy Spirit.. and they are on equal terms.

So then where does it say they are co-equal?

Also do you know what"God" is translated from?

El - Elohim el - elohim

look up Psalm 82:6 and read it in Hebrew, in Scripture it is used for other brings than YHWH the Father

Psalm 82:6

◄ Psalm 82:6 ►

Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Hebrew
Strong'sHebrewEnglishMorphology
589 [e]אֲ‍ֽנִי־
’ănî-IPro-1cs
559 [e]אָ֭מַרְתִּי
’ā-mar-tîsaidV-Qal-Perf-1cs
430 [e]אֱלֹהִ֣ים
’ĕ-lō-hîmgodsN-mp
859 [e]אַתֶּ֑ם
’at-tem;You [are]Pro-2mp
1121 [e]וּבְנֵ֖י
ū-ḇə-nêand childrenConj-w | N-mpc
5945 [e]עֶלְי֣וֹן
‘el-yō-wnof the Most HighAdj-ms
3605 [e]כֻּלְּכֶֽם׃
kul-lə-ḵem.all of you [are]N-msc | 2mp​

New International Version
“I said, ‘You are “gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.’

New Living Translation
I say, ‘You are gods; you are all children of the Most High.

English Standard Version
I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;

Berean Standard Bible
I have said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’

King James Bible
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

New King James Version
I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.




I know YHWH is the Father, Yahshua is the spotless Lamb, I dont too much get into things that are not expressly written but many denomanaions will claim those things at vital salvation issues, they are not, no man fully understand eveything about YHWH.

 

[wattie]

So then where does it say they are co-equal?

Also do you know what"God" is translated from?

El - Elohim el - elohim

look up Psalm 82:6 and read it in Hebrew, in Scripture it is used for other brings than YHWH the Father

Psalm 82:6

◄ Psalm 82:6 ►

Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Hebrew
Strong'sHebrewEnglishMorphology
589 [e]אֲ‍ֽנִי־
’ănî-IPro-1cs
559 [e]אָ֭מַרְתִּי
’ā-mar-tîsaidV-Qal-Perf-1cs
430 [e]אֱלֹהִ֣ים
’ĕ-lō-hîmgodsN-mp
859 [e]אַתֶּ֑ם
’at-tem;You [are]Pro-2mp
1121 [e]וּבְנֵ֖י
ū-ḇə-nêand childrenConj-w | N-mpc
5945 [e]עֶלְי֣וֹן
‘el-yō-wnof the Most HighAdj-ms
3605 [e]כֻּלְּכֶֽם׃
kul-lə-ḵem.all of you [are]N-msc | 2mp​

New International Version
“I said, ‘You are “gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.’

New Living Translation
I say, ‘You are gods; you are all children of the Most High.

English Standard Version
I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;

Berean Standard Bible
I have said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’

King James Bible
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

New King James Version
I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.




I know YHWH is the Father, Yahshua is the spotless Lamb, I dont too much get into things that are not expressly written but many denomanaions will claim those things at vital salvation issues, they are not, no man fully understand eveything about YHWH.

Ye are god's...small g... Is about god's as in judges, magistrates. That's the context of that verse.

But Jesus accepts worship..
Not just from like a servant to a king.. but from the king's themselves.

Jesus forgives sin of those who haven't directly offended him.. eg John steals from Peter.. Jesus forgives John.

That's having power over sin.. only God.... fully God can do that.

It's all in the context 😀

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Ye are god's...small g... Is about god's as in judges, magistrates. That's the context of that verse.

But Jesus accepts worship..
Not just from like a servant to a king.. but from the king's themselves.

Jesus forgives sin of those who haven't directly offended him.. eg John steals from Peter.. Jesus forgives John.

That's having power over sin.. only God.... fully God can do that.

It's all in the context 😀

in the original there is no capitalization, tho I do agree with caps for modern understanding and translation.

The Father gave Him the authority:

John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."

 

[CorrectiveLens]

So to you there are a hierarchy of Gods, Jesus and the Father

Hi Locopony,
You could think of it that way. The way I think of it is that the Father is the one God of all, above all. At some point in the Father's existence, He formed another being out of His own essence with His own mind, heart, and soul. That is when the beginning started because that is when the Word came into existence. That is how we get the relationship of Father and Son. In Isaiah 63: 9-10 the Holy Spirit is explained as the angel of His presence. Where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. The Son is filled completely with the Father's Spirit and that is why He is the image of the invisible God. The Father communicates and empowers His Son (the Word) through His Holy Spirit to create all things made. That is why Christ sits at the right hand of the Father. All things are done by the Father's right hand, Christ. That includes the God of the Old Testament. I like to pray to the same God that Christ prayed to. Christ is the only God formed by the Father, and as such, should be worshiped as our God, for the Father has given Him a kingdom with a scepter of righteousness. The Father calls Christ God because He has put everything under Christ's feet except Himself.

 

[wattie]

in the original there is no capitalization, tho I do agree with caps for modern understanding and translation.

The Father gave Him the authority:

John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."

Yes... So what about the Jewish concept of agency. 'The agent is as the man himself.'

The agents message has the same weight as the originator.

So if Jesus does things 'by the hand of the Father ' .. that's a thinly veiled claim to deity. That's the way the Pharisees and Scribes saw Jesus when He was an agent for the Father.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Yes... So what about the Jewish concept of agency. 'The agent is as the man himself.'

The agents message has the same weight as the originator.

So if Jesus does things 'by the hand of the Father ' .. that's a thinly veiled claim to deity. That's the way the Pharisees and Scribes saw Jesus when He was an agent for the Father.

None of that has any effect on what is Scriptually true.

I dont know about the "jewish concept of agency? and I certianly dont take anything the pharisees thought to be a relaible reference.

I try to look at the Word, read and understand it continually, I dont read commentaries or anything like that, I have but they put idea into ones head I want the Word and the SPirit to guide me.

I look at it like this, if YHWH gives Him authority, then He has it, no question.

 

[wattie]

None of that has any effect on what is Scriptually true.

I dont know about the "jewish concept of agency? and I certianly dont take anything the pharisees thought to be a relaible reference.

I try to look at the Word, read and understand it continually, I dont read commentaries or anything like that, I have but they put idea into ones head I want the Word and the SPirit to guide me.

I look at it like this, if YHWH gives Him authority, then He has it, no question.

Okay well, looking at scripture, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit... How can any being send the Holy Spirit without being fully God?

And in regard to agency..
Just compare that with other scripture showing Jesus giving eternal life, accepting worship and forgiving sin.

So a passage of scripture doesnt stand alone unless the context is all in the passage itself.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Okay well, looking at scripture, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit... How can any being send the Holy Spirit without being fully God?

And in regard to agency..
Just compare that with other scripture showing Jesus giving eternal life, accepting worship and forgiving sin.

So a passage of scripture doesnt stand alone unless the context is all in the passage itself.

you would have to post said Scriptures, but honestly this topic is not one im super firm on because thing is, there are so many things about YHWH ad Yahshua that are beyond human understanding, but if you have the Scrptures of what you speak I would like to read them, always open to the Word. I know of John 1:1-3, but these other ones please post them.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Okay well, looking at scripture, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit... How can any being send the Holy Spirit without being fully God?

And in regard to agency..
Just compare that with other scripture showing Jesus giving eternal life, accepting worship and forgiving sin.

So a passage of scripture doesnt stand alone unless the context is all in the passage itself.

this part I dont recall:

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit... How can any being send the Holy Spirit without being fully God?

I do recall this

John 14:26,But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Hi Locopony,
You could think of it that way. The way I think of it is that the Father is the one God of all, above all. At some point in the Father's existence, He formed another being out of His own essence with His own mind, heart, and soul. That is when the beginning started because that is when the Word came into existence. That is how we get the relationship of Father and Son. In Isaiah 63: 9-10 the Holy Spirit is explained as the angel of His presence. Where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. The Son is filled completely with the Father's Spirit and that is why He is the image of the invisible God. The Father communicates and empowers His Son (the Word) through His Holy Spirit to create all things made. That is why Christ sits at the right hand of the Father. All things are done by the Father's right hand, Christ. That includes the God of the Old Testament. I like to pray to the same God that Christ prayed to. Christ is the only God formed by the Father, and as such, should be worshiped as our God, for the Father has given Him a kingdom with a scepter of righteousness. The Father calls Christ God because He has put everything under Christ's feet except Himself.

So you think Jesus is a created being, rather than co-eternal.

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

During the reign of Diocletian, the greatest persecution of Christians occurred in the Roman Empire. He required all subjects to sacrifice to the Roman Gods ( of course true Christians would refuse and many bishops succumbed to the pressures ) and blamed Christians when bad things occurred. He sent a universal edict that Christianity was to be eliminated. Before he retired from being sole emperor of Rome, he divided the Roman Empire into 4 parts and put a general in each part to rule each part. After Diocletian retired, these generals fought each other and when one of them, Constantius, died, his son Constantine, took over and eventually became the sole ruler of the Roman Empire from 306 AD to 337 AD. Constantine's mother, Helena was a Christian and in 313 AD Constantine issued the Edict of Milan which legalized Christianity. By 325 AD Christianity was a major religion, but there were many factions competing with each other. Constantine was a sun worshiper. His coins had images of him with the sun god next to him. He wanted to keep his empire united so he sent 1800 invitations to Christian bishops from all over the empire to come to Nicaea to discuss topics in the Bible and come to a consensus. Sebellianism (the belief that the one God takes on the role of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) was already declared a heresy. The topics discussed during the council was Arianism, whether or not to accept bishops who recanted their faith under severe persecution back into the fold, and when to celebrate Easter. Arius believed that Christ was a created being made from a different substance from the Father. Around 300 bishops attended the Council of Nicaea and Constantine oversaw the proceedings. They declared Arianism a heresy so Constantine banished him, had his writings burned, and forbade possession of his writings. Meanwhile, the bishops at the council had to come up with a consensus on the divinity of Jesus. They believed that Jesus was God, the Father was God, and the Holy Spirit was God, but that went against the Jewish belief in one God. Also, they didn't want to fall into the category of Sebellianism, so they came up with the Trinity which states that there is only one God that is made up of three distinct persons. Each is the one God. Sounds like Sebllianism to me.
The Nicene Creed was adopted and this consensus was decreed to be taught by all bishops. The Roman Catholic Church adopted the consensus and declared Constantine a saint. They call him Saint Constantine although he was never canonized a saint. He had his son killed for what his wife told him, and then, when he found out that his wife had lied, he had her tossed into a vat of boiling water. It was in his later years that Eusebius took notes from him to write his biography. It is then that he relates his dream about conquering under the Christian banner. It is in his deathbed that he gets water baptized. He wanted to wait till then so that all the evil things that he did during his reign would be forgiven. Arianism persisted after the Council of Nicaea and eventually one of the later emperors was an Arian. Also, Arius was allowed back after making some modifications which satisfied the emperor Constantine.

Close, but Arius actually died before the Romans could force the Saints to add him back into the Church because one of the true and faithful saints suspected he was feigning confession and repentance of his incredibly blasphemous heresy in order to legitimize his incredibly wicked cult and his own worldly fame, and so that saint prayed that Arius the Heretic would die before he could enter the church of Constantinople. As it turns out that saint's prayer was answered by God and so wicked Arius died actually on his way to the Church bragging openlyat the height of his pride before the whole world when suddenly a pain seized him in his bowels and he needed to go to the bathroom quite violently and divinely by crapping his own bowels out of himself literally.. Arius the Heretic was never re-communicated and he blasphemed God by claiming Jesus wasn't God primarily on the argument of Substance, and so Arius died a significantly cursed death being made by power of the Spirit in the name of the Son to violent expel his own innards, his own substance from himself. PRAISE JESUS!

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

Luke 22:42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

Was that will ("not My will") the will of the 2nd person of some trinity or was that the will of Jesus' flesh.?

 

[wattie]

this part I dont recall:



I do recall this

John 14:26,But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

Well, it is the Father AND Jesus sending the Comforter:


Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

[wattie]

you would have to post said Scriptures, but honestly this topic is not one im super firm on because thing is, there are so many things about YHWH ad Yahshua that are beyond human understanding, but if you have the Scrptures of what you speak I would like to read them, always open to the Word. I know of John 1:1-3, but these other ones please post them.

From Jesus:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Forgiving sin:

Luke 5:19 And when they could not find by what way they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with his couch into the midst before Jesus.
Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Luke 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?