The theif on the cross misconceptions

[DJT_47]

The saving baptism is of the Holy Spirit of God, not earthly water.

John the Baptist said this of Jesus: “He on Whom you see the Spirit
descend and remain is the One Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.”

Baptism in John 3 is referred to as a ceremonial washing. Compare to earlier in
same chapter where Jesus speaks of the necessity of being born again of the Spirit.

Jesus fulfilled all righteous by allowing John to baptize Him.

Physical water accomplishes nothing toward the salvation of any other person.

"Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that
I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in
him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:13-14

On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying,
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the
Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke
concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit
was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:37-39

Jesus makes a clear distinction between the living water He gives juxtaposed against earthly water.

The Word of God is often referred to as water in the Bible because the Word acts as
a cleansing agent, which explains what Paul meant when he wrote concerning Jesus’
cleansing the church “that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing
of water with the Word so that He might present the church to Himself in splendour,
without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”
(Eph 5:26-27) <- from my search engine


Spiritual circumcision performed NOT by the hands of men...

Colossians 2:11-15 In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the
circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. And having been buried with Him in baptism,
you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made
you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, having canceled the debt ascribed to us in
the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! And having disarmed the
powers and authorities,He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

So this idea that water dunking is what cleanses us is null and void. That is not to say one should
not be water baptized or that water baptism is meaningless, for I have never said, hinted at, nor
implied either of those things and yet been falsely accused of saying those things by a number
of people who fail to grasp what it is I am actually saying.

You cant deny what other scriptures clearly say such as the below. If you cherrypick scripture, then you don't get the complete message. You must consider all pertinent scripture to get the complete message. Cherrypicking scripture will always result in scripture conflicting with other scripture and appear to be a contradiction which it cannot be.

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Act 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[DJT_47]

Not if you use normal reading comprehension and leave out the humanism.

Not so. You get the spirit upon being baptized into Christ. You don't receive the spirit any other way according to the scriptures. If so, how? What scriptures say so?
Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[mailmandan]

Not if you use normal reading comprehension and leave out the humanism.

Properly harmozing scripture with scripture is not about humanism. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)

 

[Dirtman]

Not so. You get the spirit upon being baptized into Christ. You don't receive the spirit any other way according to the scriptures. If so, how? What scriptures say so?
Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I dont know what you think no said, so let me be clear. There is one baptism. One receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit upon being baptized.

 

[Dirtman]

Properly harmozing scripture with scripture is not about humanism. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)

You arent doing that. You are making strange interpretations. Trying to turn baptism into a work of man and some how done in some human righteousness.
Which is fallacious

 

[Magenta]

You aren't doing that. You are making strange interpretations. Trying to turn
baptism into a work of man and some how done in some human righteousness.
Which is fallacious

Au contraire. Your mistake is equating/conflating earthly H2O with the power
of the Holy Spirit of God, assigning to H2O power it simply does not have.

Jesus' words from John 7:37-38 and John 4:14

 

[John146]

Right. There is just too much spiritual nonsense floating around these days.

Today there are multiple false gospels, and Christians need to know the true Gospel in order to refute and debunk the false gospels. Here are some of the false gospels you will see floating around:
1. The gospel according to TULIP
2. The Prosperity Gospel
3. The Baptismal Regeneration Gospel
4. The Sacramental Gospel
5 The Good Works Gospel
6. The Antinomian Gospel
7. The Hyper Grace Gospel
8. All kinds of Gnostic gospels
7. All kinds of New Age gospels

So what is the TRUE GOSPEL? Paul spells it out in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and Ephesians 1:13-16
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the Gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how [1]that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And [2] that He was buried, and [3] that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:...
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

This corresponds to what Paul told the Philippian jailer in Acts 16:31: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, who is God manifest in the flesh, is the Gospel. Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and rose again from the dead for our justification, according to the Scriptures. And that all who genuinely repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are justified by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption + NOTHING.

No baptism mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[Inquisitor]

The thief on the cross misconceptions

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Depends on which baptism you are referring to?

The baptism in water which John the Baptist conducted, was the shadow baptism that would be fulfilled. By the baptism of the Holy Spirit which Jesus granted to the church.

Matthew 3:11
As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John tells us that his baptism was merely symbolic of the spiritual baptism that Jesus invoked.

It is unfortunate for many that church tradition placed the emphasis on the water baptism.

This is but one of the many errors that exist through church history.

 

[Blade]

yes OP. Yet what has not ever changed is Gods word that who ever calls on the name of the lord shall be delivered/saved. Praise GOD He made salvation easy but man on the other hand.... lets find all those hoops so we can jump through.

 

[mailmandan]

If he was baptized would he have been a thief?

Good point. In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith, yet moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved. (Luke 23:40-43) Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

 

[mailmandan]

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

Those who quote Acts 2:38 invariably forget to quote Acts 3:19 which clarifies what is actually for the remission of sins: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

And Peter was saying EXACTLY what he had been taught by the Lord: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47)

Water DOES NOT wash away sins. It is the blood of Christ alone that can wash away your sins. And that happens when a sinner repents and believes. Therefore Acts 2:38 does not mean that salvation is through water baptism. It simply means that salvation and baptism are almost simultaneous. And that is exactly what we see in the book of Acts.

Amen! In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[mailmandan]

..The two elements found in the new birth (John 3:5) are living water and the Spirit (Who is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing/washing of regeneration)..

In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated in that case, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, flesh birth, accompanied by amniotic "water" and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Please don't address my post like that. Nothing you said is contained in my thoughts nor posting. Thanks.💞

yeah I’d say anyone can read what your saying and deduce it it isn’t complex you’ve read a lot of Joseph prince and Paul Ellis and have clung to the hyper grace doctrine which tells you anything Jesus said you need to do , isnt grace it’s a work “

that doctrine is extremely easy to spotlight

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that doctrine cannot accept the word when you hear God saying “ if you do this God will do this “ and if you do this other thing God will do this other thing “

baptism is the same “ if you believe the gospel you repent and get baptized , I will remit your sins and save your soul “

that doesn’t work when we say “ that’s a work not grace I’m already saved I don’t need to do anything the lord said I need to do , I have faith I have grace ect ect “

There’s no repentance or faith in it to hear Gods living word and claim it’s a work of the le and not necessary for what he said it is

hypergrace is a distortion

 

[EDENgate]

yeah I’d say anyone can read what your saying and deduce it it isn’t complex you’ve read a lot of Joseph prince and Paul Ellis and have clung to the hyper grace doctrine which tells you anything Jesus said you need to do , isnt grace it’s a work “

that doctrine is extremely easy to spotlight

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that doctrine cannot accept the word when you hear God saying “ if you do this God will do this “ and if you do this other thing God will do this other thing “

baptism is the same “ if you believe the gospel you repent and get baptized , I will remit your sins and save your soul “

that doesn’t work when we say “ that’s a work not grace I’m already saved I don’t need to do anything the lord said I need to do , I have faith I have grace ect ect “

There’s no repentance or faith in it to hear Gods living word and claim it’s a work of the le and not necessary for what he said it is

hypergrace is a distortion

I've never read Joseph Prince. I don't watch his sermons.

I've never heard of Paul Ellis.

 

[EDENgate]

Good point. In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith, yet moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved. (Luke 23:40-43) Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

You know how there are some teachings that insist baptism insures salvation?

Wouldn't Jesus have known that thief prior to meeting him on the cross had he been baptized already?

And had the thief been baptized why would he ask Jesus to remember him when he comes into his kingdom?

I think those are questions are something to consider too.

 

[DJT_47]

No baptism mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15.

All pertinent scriptures must be considered not just one or a few, but all. You can also take Romans 10:8 only and if you do, then only confession is necessary. It's absolutely imperative to consider all relative scriptures on this topic or any other, otherwise, scripture will appear to conflict with itself and contradict other scripture which can't be correct. So, when ALL pertinent scriptures are considered on the subject of salvation, you find that belief and faith, confession of belief, repentance, and baptism are all required foe salvation.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

All pertinent scriptures must be considered not just one or a few

Absolutely Correct, as the few have always been misunderstood,
misrepresented, and misinterpreted - so Beware, Correct?:

Are these ALL, or are there More? - Showing God's Contexts:

(1) Prophecy/Law for ISRAEL:

►►► The Twelve Were Sent to {water} baptize! ◄◄◄

The TWO Main (of 12) baptismS =

A) water, For remission of sins/induction into Israeli "priesthood!":
(Matthew_3:5-6; Mark_1:4; Luke_3:3; John_1:31; Luke 7:29-30; Acts_10:37)
(Matthew_28:19; Mark_16:16; Acts_2:38, 22:16; Ezekiel_36:25)
+
B) WITH The Holy Spirit, Poured Out By CHRIST, for
power, signs And wonders!
(Isaiah_44:3; Matthew_3:11; Mark_1:8, 16:17-18;
Luke_24:49; Acts_2:17-18, 38, 8:15-17, 11:16)
Prophecy/Law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

(2) Mystery/GRACE! =

our "apostle to the Gentiles" for The Body Of CHRIST:

►►► Paul Was Not Sent to {water} baptize! Why Not?: ◄◄◄

Today: Only ONE Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION,
Spiritually Identifying members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!!
(Ephesians_4:5; Colossians_2:12; Galatians_3:27;
Romans_6:3-4; ►►► 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJB! ◄◄◄)
-----------------------------------------------------
Then, within God's Context Of Grace/Mystery, we find the
"Washing Of Regeneration" Today, is not by water, But By
The Holy Spirit, As Confirmed By "What Saith The Scripture?":

a) not physical water, as that would be a "work of righteousness
that we ['man's operation' would] do," and Scripture Declares:

"not by works of righteousness which we have done"

b) Along With "Circumcision [without hands] of the heart"
(Colossians 2:11), Sanctification, and Justification
(God's Spiritual OPERATION), we have:

“And such were some of you: but ye Are Washed, but ye Are
Sanctified, but ye Are Justified In The Name Of The Lord
Jesus, And By The Spirit Of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:11)

--------
Conclusion:

1) No interpretation is necessary When ALL Scripture is Rightly
Divided, and kept in God's Context, as demonstrated above.

2) The ONE Baptism Today, Under Grace, Into The One Body,
By The One Spirit Definitely Vanquishes all the Confusion of
water into Oblivion, Correct?

-------------------------------------------
Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

 

[DJT_47]

Absolutely Correct, as the few have always been misunderstood,
misrepresented, and misinterpreted - so Beware, Correct?:

Are these ALL, or are there More? - Showing God's Contexts:

(1) Prophecy/Law for ISRAEL:

►►► The Twelve Were Sent to {water} baptize! ◄◄◄

The TWO Main (of 12) baptismS =

A) water, For remission of sins/induction into Israeli "priesthood!":
(Matthew_3:5-6; Mark_1:4; Luke_3:3; John_1:31; Luke 7:29-30; Acts_10:37)
(Matthew_28:19; Mark_16:16; Acts_2:38, 22:16; Ezekiel_36:25)
+
B) WITH The Holy Spirit, Poured Out By CHRIST, for
power, signs And wonders!
(Isaiah_44:3; Matthew_3:11; Mark_1:8, 16:17-18;
Luke_24:49; Acts_2:17-18, 38, 8:15-17, 11:16)
Prophecy/Law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

(2) Mystery/GRACE! =

our "apostle to the Gentiles" for The Body Of CHRIST:

►►► Paul Was Not Sent to {water} baptize! Why Not?: ◄◄◄

Today: Only ONE Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION,
Spiritually Identifying members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!!
(Ephesians_4:5; Colossians_2:12; Galatians_3:27;
Romans_6:3-4; ►►► 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJB! ◄◄◄)
-----------------------------------------------------
Then, within God's Context Of Grace/Mystery, we find the
"Washing Of Regeneration" Today, is not by water, But By
The Holy Spirit, As Confirmed By "What Saith The Scripture?":

a) not physical water, as that would be a "work of righteousness
that we ['man's operation' would] do," and Scripture Declares:

"not by works of righteousness which we have done"

b) Along With "Circumcision [without hands] of the heart"
(Colossians 2:11), Sanctification, and Justification
(God's Spiritual OPERATION), we have:

“And such were some of you: but ye Are Washed, but ye Are
Sanctified, but ye Are Justified In The Name Of The Lord
Jesus, And By The Spirit Of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:11)

--------
Conclusion:

1) No interpretation is necessary When ALL Scripture is Rightly
Divided, and kept in God's Context, as demonstrated above.

2) The ONE Baptism Today, Under Grace, Into The One Body,
By The One Spirit Definitely Vanquishes all the Confusion of
water into Oblivion, Correct?

-------------------------------------------
Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

Just one quick comment. The "by one Spirit" as per the KJV in 1 Cor 12:13, is a poor translation even though I personally like and read the KJV, but look at the original Greek in the interlinear, which says "in one Spirit". It does make a difference as some tend to use the KJV there to justify that somehow you receive the spirit prior to baptism, which is not the case as noted on Acts 2:38.

 

[John146]

All pertinent scriptures must be considered not just one or a few, but all. You can also take Romans 10:8 only and if you do, then only confession is necessary. It's absolutely imperative to consider all relative scriptures on this topic or any other, otherwise, scripture will appear to conflict with itself and contradict other scripture which can't be correct. So, when ALL pertinent scriptures are considered on the subject of salvation, you find that belief and faith, confession of belief, repentance, and baptism are all required foe salvation.

You would think if it were a must, it would be mentioned here in 1 Corinthians 15 where we find the gospel message in its most basic form. Never base a doctrine off the book of Acts. It is a transition book.

Also, you would think Paul would mention the necessity of water baptism somewhere in his letters. Nope.

 

[John146]

Just one quick comment. The "by one Spirit" as per the KJV in 1 Cor 12:13, is a poor translation even though I personally like and read the KJV, but look at the original Greek in the interlinear, which says "in one Spirit". It does make a difference as some tend to use the KJV there to justify that somehow you receive the spirit prior to baptism, which is not the case as noted on Acts 2:38.

You personally like to read the KJV until it goes against your belief system. “Let’s go to the Greek“ is just a way out.