The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[vassal]

This is a great paper on the reason why we will go through the great tribulation! I have no problem with it.


Why do you not like Paul's writings? It doesn't conflict with Jesus.

Galatians 1:11–12 “I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

1 Corinthians 7:40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

1 Thessalonians 1:6 "And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with joy from the Holy Spirit."

2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."

Acts 13:9 "Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked directly at Elymas."


🕊

thank you, you are right, I examined further and could reconcile Paul' writings, when we read the prophets, the words of Jesus, and the book of Revelation, we see one clear pattern. God’s people are not taken away from trouble. They are kept through it. They are tested like silver in the fire. They are called to endure. Those who endure to the end are saved.

In some places, Paul speaks of suffering in a way that agrees with this pattern. For example, in Romans 5:3–4 he says that tribulation produces endurance, and endurance produces proven character, and character produces hope. That fits very well with the idea of refinement. Suffering shapes the believer. It is not meaningless. It produces something good.
In 2 Thessalonians 1:4–5, Paul speaks of believers enduring persecutions and afflictions, and he says this shows they are worthy of the kingdom of God. Again, this matches what Jesus said in Matthew 24:13, that the one who endures to the end will be saved. Endurance is central in both.
Also, in 1 Thessalonians 3:3–4, Paul reminds believers that they are appointed to afflictions. That is not removal from trouble. That is expectation of trouble. So in many places, Paul agrees with the pattern of refinement through suffering.
The tension usually comes from one key passage, in 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, where Paul speak about believers being “caught up” to meet the Lord in the air. because of this passage, Some have built from this the idea that the faithful will escape tribulation before it comes. But Paul himself does not clearly say this happens before a time of global distress. He describes the return of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead, but he does not describe a secret removal years before judgment.
If we read Paul alongside Jesus in Matthew 24, Jesus places the gathering of His elect after the tribulation of those days. In Revelation 7:14, the great multitude comes out of the great tribulation, not before it. In Daniel 12:1, deliverance comes after a time of trouble.

If Paul is read in harmony with these as it should be but people do not do, then his words about being caught up can be understood as part of the same final appearing of Christ, not a separate escape event. In that case, there is no contradiction. There is one return of the Lord, one resurrection, one gathering of the faithful, after endurance has been shown.

Yes, if we read him carefully and do not build a system that goes beyond what he plainly says. Where Paul speaks about suffering, endurance, and being tested, he agrees with the prophets and with Jesus. Where people claim he teaches removal before refinement, that idea must be proven clearly from his words alone, and that proof is not as simple as many assume.
When all Scripture is read together, the stronger and clearer voice is this: God refines His people through trial. The faithful endure. The Lord returns. The dead are raised. The living are gathered. Judgment falls. And the kingdom is revealed.
In that way, the message remains one story, not two.

Blessings

 

[vassal]

This is a great paper on the reason why we will go through the great tribulation! I have no problem with it.


Why do you not like Paul's writings? It doesn't conflict with Jesus.

Galatians 1:11–12 “I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

1 Corinthians 7:40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

1 Thessalonians 1:6 "And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with joy from the Holy Spirit."

2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."

Acts 13:9 "Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked directly at Elymas."


🕊

Here is the final version with a few of paul's verses as it complements well the article., would you like me to put your forum name as co author, ill wait for your answer before posting it as a new thread;

The Tribulation: Part I: Refinement, Not Removal
Abstract
This study explores the theological purpose of tribulation as presented in the Bible—specifically, the prophetic writings, the teachings of Jesus, the Book of Revelation, and selected passages from Paul. The central argument advanced here is that tribulation serves not as divine abandonment or escape, but as a refining process through which faith, character, and covenant fidelity are purified and revealed. Across Scripture, tribulation emerges as an instrument of transformation rather than removal.

1. Introduction
The concept of the “Great Tribulation” has long been a subject of eschatological debate. Many interpretations emphasize deliverance from suffering, particularly through the notion of a pre-tribulational rapture. Yet, when the Hebrew prophets, the teachings of Jesus, the Revelation of John, and Paul are read together carefully, a consistent pattern emerges.
In these sources, tribulation is consistently depicted as a necessary refinement of the faithful rather than their escape from adversity. The people of God are not portrayed as removed from trial, but as purified through it. This understanding aligns with a broader biblical theology in which suffering functions as a divine crucible for authenticity and faithfulness.

2. Refinement in the Prophetic Tradition
2.1 Zechariah: The Remnant Through Fire
Zechariah 13:9 declares, “I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested.”
Here, tribulation is represented not as punitive destruction but as a process of purification. The “third part,” symbolizing the faithful remnant, endures divine testing that burns away impurity while preserving the essence of covenant loyalty.
In Hebrew prophetic thought, fire is primarily transformative rather than annihilative. It is the means by which God restores holiness among His people.
2.2 Daniel: Purification Before Deliverance
In Daniel 12:1–10, a “time of trouble” precedes final deliverance. The righteous are described as those who are purified, made white, and refined. This imagery depicts tribulation as an eschatological furnace in which moral integrity and faith are distinguished from rebellion and corruption.
The sequence is instructive: refinement precedes deliverance, implying that salvation itself arises from faithfulness under pressure, not immunity from it.

3. Jesus’ Teaching: Endurance as Faithfulness
In the Synoptic Gospels, particularly the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24), Jesus speaks plainly about suffering and persecution that will befall His followers. He does not promise their removal from tribulation but insists upon their endurance within it:
“Then they will hand you over to be persecuted… but the one who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:9–13).
Endurance signifies steadfast perseverance. Salvation, therefore, is not the avoidance of tribulation but the demonstration of fidelity in its midst.
Similarly, in John 16:33, Jesus assures His disciples, “In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” His victory does not eliminate the experience of suffering but grants meaning and hope within it.
The agricultural metaphor of pruning in John 15:2 reinforces this truth: even fruitful branches are cut back so that they might yield more. Divine pruning parallels the refining fire—both serve to deepen fruitfulness and spiritual maturity.

4. Paul: Tribulation as Producing Endurance
When Paul speaks directly about tribulation, his language aligns with this pattern of refinement rather than removal.
In Romans 5:3–4, he writes:
“And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness; and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope.”
Here tribulation is not presented as something believers escape, but as something that produces steadfastness and proven character. The movement is from suffering to endurance to tested faith. This is refinement language.
Likewise, in 2 Thessalonians 1:4–5, Paul commends believers:
“So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which ye endure; which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God; to the end that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.”
Their endurance under persecution is described as evidence of God’s righteous judgment and as preparation for the kingdom. Suffering is not bypassed; it is endured. Worthiness is demonstrated through faithfulness in affliction.
Thus, in these passages, Paul supports the same theological trajectory seen in the prophets and in Jesus.

5. Revelation: Purity Through Perseverance
The Book of Revelation continues and completes this pattern. Believers are not depicted as absent during the world’s trials but as sealed and sustained through them. The vision of the multitude in Revelation 7:14 identifies them as those who “have come out of the great tribulation,” having “washed their robes… in the blood of the Lamb.”
Their purity is the result of endurance and faith under suffering. The saints are refined by faithfulness amid persecution, not by exemption from it. Likewise, in Revelation 3:18, Christ counsels the church to acquire “gold refined by fire,” emphasizing the necessity of purification before participation in divine glory.
Thus, Revelation’s theology of tribulation mirrors the prophets, Jesus, and Paul: God’s people are preserved through testing and perfected by it.

6. The Biblical Pattern of Refinement
Throughout Scripture, the same pattern appears again and again.
In Noah’s Flood there was global judgment, yet God preserved a remnant and brought renewal through it.
In Israel’s wilderness there was hardship and testing, yet through that suffering God formed their covenant identity.
In the Babylonian exile there was national suffering, yet it led to repentance and restoration.
In the end-time tribulation there is a global crisis, yet its purpose is the revelation and perfection of true faith.
Across these episodes, the faithful are preserved within crisis, not spared from it. God’s justice and mercy operate simultaneously: judgment exposes evil, while suffering refines love and loyalty.

7. Conclusion
In the witness of the prophets, the Gospels, Paul’s teachings on endurance, and Revelation, tribulation is never portrayed as a means of removing God’s people from the world. Instead, it is the means by which they are transformed within it.
The fire of tribulation purifies; it distinguishes the genuine from the false, the steadfast from the superficial. The refining process culminates not in despair but in redemption — the emergence of a people made radiant through endurance.
Hence, the theology of tribulation reveals this central biblical truth:
God’s purpose in tribulation is not escape, but refinement; not destruction, but purification; not abandonment, but preparation for glory.

Blessings.

 

[vassal]

sorry for the readers of this thread, I did not stick to the O.P. but it is done now, apologies.

 

[vassal]

Are you saying God is "drawing a line" between believers who practice Shabbat and believers who do not? Also what are people to come out of - Churches who do not keep Shabbat?

Read exodus 16 about the manna and tell me what you see.

Exo 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
Exo 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
Exo 16:31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.
Exo 16:32 And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth, Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations; that they may see the bread wherewith I have fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Here is the final version with a few of paul's verses as it complements well the article., would you like me to put your forum name as co author, ill wait for your answer before posting it as a new thread;

The Tribulation: Part I: Refinement, Not Removal
Abstract
This study explores the theological purpose of tribulation as presented in the Bible—specifically, the prophetic writings, the teachings of Jesus, the Book of Revelation, and selected passages from Paul. The central argument advanced here is that tribulation serves not as divine abandonment or escape, but as a refining process through which faith, character, and covenant fidelity are purified and revealed. Across Scripture, tribulation emerges as an instrument of transformation rather than removal.

1. Introduction
The concept of the “Great Tribulation” has long been a subject of eschatological debate. Many interpretations emphasize deliverance from suffering, particularly through the notion of a pre-tribulational rapture. Yet, when the Hebrew prophets, the teachings of Jesus, the Revelation of John, and Paul are read together carefully, a consistent pattern emerges.
In these sources, tribulation is consistently depicted as a necessary refinement of the faithful rather than their escape from adversity. The people of God are not portrayed as removed from trial, but as purified through it. This understanding aligns with a broader biblical theology in which suffering functions as a divine crucible for authenticity and faithfulness.

2. Refinement in the Prophetic Tradition
2.1 Zechariah: The Remnant Through Fire
Zechariah 13:9 declares, “I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested.”
Here, tribulation is represented not as punitive destruction but as a process of purification. The “third part,” symbolizing the faithful remnant, endures divine testing that burns away impurity while preserving the essence of covenant loyalty.
In Hebrew prophetic thought, fire is primarily transformative rather than annihilative. It is the means by which God restores holiness among His people.
2.2 Daniel: Purification Before Deliverance
In Daniel 12:1–10, a “time of trouble” precedes final deliverance. The righteous are described as those who are purified, made white, and refined. This imagery depicts tribulation as an eschatological furnace in which moral integrity and faith are distinguished from rebellion and corruption.
The sequence is instructive: refinement precedes deliverance, implying that salvation itself arises from faithfulness under pressure, not immunity from it.

3. Jesus’ Teaching: Endurance as Faithfulness
In the Synoptic Gospels, particularly the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24), Jesus speaks plainly about suffering and persecution that will befall His followers. He does not promise their removal from tribulation but insists upon their endurance within it:
“Then they will hand you over to be persecuted… but the one who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:9–13).
Endurance signifies steadfast perseverance. Salvation, therefore, is not the avoidance of tribulation but the demonstration of fidelity in its midst.
Similarly, in John 16:33, Jesus assures His disciples, “In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” His victory does not eliminate the experience of suffering but grants meaning and hope within it.
The agricultural metaphor of pruning in John 15:2 reinforces this truth: even fruitful branches are cut back so that they might yield more. Divine pruning parallels the refining fire—both serve to deepen fruitfulness and spiritual maturity.

4. Paul: Tribulation as Producing Endurance
When Paul speaks directly about tribulation, his language aligns with this pattern of refinement rather than removal.
In Romans 5:3–4, he writes:
“And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness; and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope.”
Here tribulation is not presented as something believers escape, but as something that produces steadfastness and proven character. The movement is from suffering to endurance to tested faith. This is refinement language.
Likewise, in 2 Thessalonians 1:4–5, Paul commends believers:
“So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which ye endure; which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God; to the end that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.”
Their endurance under persecution is described as evidence of God’s righteous judgment and as preparation for the kingdom. Suffering is not bypassed; it is endured. Worthiness is demonstrated through faithfulness in affliction.
Thus, in these passages, Paul supports the same theological trajectory seen in the prophets and in Jesus.

5. Revelation: Purity Through Perseverance
The Book of Revelation continues and completes this pattern. Believers are not depicted as absent during the world’s trials but as sealed and sustained through them. The vision of the multitude in Revelation 7:14 identifies them as those who “have come out of the great tribulation,” having “washed their robes… in the blood of the Lamb.”
Their purity is the result of endurance and faith under suffering. The saints are refined by faithfulness amid persecution, not by exemption from it. Likewise, in Revelation 3:18, Christ counsels the church to acquire “gold refined by fire,” emphasizing the necessity of purification before participation in divine glory.
Thus, Revelation’s theology of tribulation mirrors the prophets, Jesus, and Paul: God’s people are preserved through testing and perfected by it.

6. The Biblical Pattern of Refinement
Throughout Scripture, the same pattern appears again and again.
In Noah’s Flood there was global judgment, yet God preserved a remnant and brought renewal through it.
In Israel’s wilderness there was hardship and testing, yet through that suffering God formed their covenant identity.
In the Babylonian exile there was national suffering, yet it led to repentance and restoration.
In the end-time tribulation there is a global crisis, yet its purpose is the revelation and perfection of true faith.
Across these episodes, the faithful are preserved within crisis, not spared from it. God’s justice and mercy operate simultaneously: judgment exposes evil, while suffering refines love and loyalty.

7. Conclusion
In the witness of the prophets, the Gospels, Paul’s teachings on endurance, and Revelation, tribulation is never portrayed as a means of removing God’s people from the world. Instead, it is the means by which they are transformed within it.
The fire of tribulation purifies; it distinguishes the genuine from the false, the steadfast from the superficial. The refining process culminates not in despair but in redemption — the emergence of a people made radiant through endurance.
Hence, the theology of tribulation reveals this central biblical truth:
God’s purpose in tribulation is not escape, but refinement; not destruction, but purification; not abandonment, but preparation for glory.

Blessings.

This is a really excellent paper with inclusion of Paul’s writings! Will you publish this somewhere?

That's nice of you to ask to add my name but all I did was say that Paul won't contradict Jesus. You did all the work of citing and quoting Paul, not me and I'd feel bad for taking any credit.


🕊

 

[vassal]

This is a really excellent paper with inclusion of Paul’s writings! Will you publish this somewhere?

That's nice of you to ask to add my name but all I did was say that Paul won't contradict Jesus. You did all the work of citing and quoting Paul, not me and I'd feel bad for taking any credit.


🕊

well the paper is better because of the addition and you convinced me about adding it therefore you did contribute i am working on part 2 and 3 so you still have time to decide. it would be nice also to see people collaborating to produce posts.

Blessings

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

well the paper is better because of the addition and you convinced me about adding it therefore you did contribute i am working on part 2 and 3 so you still have time to decide. it would be nice also to see people collaborating to produce posts.

Blessings

I'm looking forward to parts 2 and 3!


🕊

 

[vassal]

All right, ill submit part one for a new thread then. Thanks again.

 

[HigherGospel]

It only is bad when the show itself becomes the focus.

Yep and therin is the problem.

So many churches today make the service more about the show than about the Lord.
And when they finally get down to business it's about their denomination instead of the Lord.

If they don't then people will quit showing up and quit putting money in the offering bucket.

Lots of people think if they are going to show up and throw a few bucks in the offering then "somebody had been keep me entertained!"

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Jesus was referring to His own commands not specifically the ten which were given by Moses. Of course, Jesus' commands embody the essence of the Mosaic law but go much deeper - penetrating to the motives and intentions of the heart. When I lived in Israel, I found that a great many Rabbinical students denied the commands of Jesus. For instance they would not accept that it was a sin to "look upon a woman with LUST. After all, Moses only commanded us not to commit adultery not to imagine doing such things. The letter of the Law only says "do not commit adultery" Imagining you are committing immoral acts is not a sin since you are not actually DOING it, This applies to any and every imagined of perversion which we can do without guilt since it is not real. Of course, Jesus linked ALL behavior to our desires and thoughts

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders
God will judge us for what we allow to go on in our minds. From this we see that modern Judaism consists of many compromises and alliances with Satan

 

[studier]

God will judge us for what we allow to go on in our minds.

Recognizing the time of need to be at the thought level: 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (Heb4:16 NKJ)

 

[vassal]

Jesus was referring to His own commands not specifically the ten which were given by Moses. Of course, Jesus' commands embody the essence of the Mosaic law but go much deeper - penetrating to the motives and intentions of the heart. When I lived in Israel, I found that a great many Rabbinical students denied the commands of Jesus. For instance they would not accept that it was a sin to "look upon a woman with LUST. After all, Moses only commanded us not to commit adultery not to imagine doing such things. The letter of the Law only says "do not commit adultery" Imagining you are committing immoral acts is not a sin since you are not actually DOING it, This applies to any and every imagined of perversion which we can do without guilt since it is not real. Of course, Jesus linked ALL behavior to our desires and thoughts

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders
God will judge us for what we allow to go on in our minds. From this we see that modern Judaism consists of many compromises and alliances with Satan

Jesus did not come to separate His commands from the commandments given before. He said clearly, “Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil” (Matthew 5:17, ASV). And He also said, “If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments” (John 14:15). The question then is this: what commandments was He speaking about?

When the rich young ruler asked about eternal life, Jesus answered, “If thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments,” and then He listed from the Ten Commandments, “Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal…” (Matthew 19:17–19). So Jesus did not set aside the Ten. He confirmed them.

But He also showed their true depth. In the Sermon on the Mount He said, “Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matthew 5:27–28). He was not adding a new law. He was revealing what was always true before God. The command was never only about the outward act. It was about a faithful heart.

This agrees with what is written in the Law itself. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife” (Exodus 20:17). Coveting is not an outward act. It is something that happens inside. Even in the Ten Commandments, God was already judging the heart.

Jesus also said, “For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed… adulteries” (Mark 7:21). And He taught that a good tree brings forth good fruit, and a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit (Matthew 7:17–20). The root is the heart. The outward sin grows from inward desire.

So the issue is not Moses versus Jesus. The Law and the Prophets already pointed to a heart that loves God. Jesus brought that truth into the light and removed the excuses. He showed that righteousness is not only about what hands do, but about what the heart loves.

As for judging whole groups of people, we must be careful. Jesus said, “Judge not, that ye be not judged” (Matthew 7:1). God alone searches the heart (1 Samuel 16:7). There may be those who deny His words, just as there were in His own days. But the call of Christ is the same for all: repent, believe, and obey from the heart.

In the end, Jesus’ teaching does not weaken the commandments. It makes them deeper, purer, and more serious. God desires truth in the inward parts, not only clean hands but a clean heart.

 

[vassal]

Recognizing the time of need to be at the thought level: 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (Heb4:16 NKJ)

The verse you shared, (Hebrews 4:16), is a call to draw near to God. It shows that when we see our weakness, even at the level of our thoughts, we are not told to hide. We are told to come.

But we should also remember why this invitation is given. Just before this, it says that the word of God discerns “the thoughts and intents of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12). Nothing is hidden from Him. So when wrong desire begins in the mind, that is the time of need. That is when we must run to God for mercy and strength.

This does not cancel what Jesus taught about the heart. It confirms it. Jesus said that evil thoughts come from within (Mark 7:21), and that looking with lust is already adultery in the heart (Matthew 5:28). If sin begins inside, then help must also begin inside. Grace is not permission to entertain sin in the mind. The Holy Spirit is help to overcome it.

Jesus taught us to pray, “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil” (Matthew 6:13). That prayer is for the moment temptation rises, even before an outward act happens. And He said, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41). He knew the battle starts in the heart.

So Hebrews 4:16 does not lower the standard. It opens the door to mercy. When we fail in thought, or feel temptation growing, we come boldly to God, not to excuse ourselves, but to receive cleansing and strength. God is both holy and merciful. He sees the heart, and He also helps the heart that turns to Him.

The message is simple. Do not wait until sin becomes action. When you feel the struggle inside, that is your time of need. Go to Him. He gives mercy for what is past and grace for what is ahead.

 

[studier]

The command was never only about the outward act. It was about a faithful heart.

I think this is part of what many Christians don't truly get. They may agree with this, but there are a couple different words for knowledge in the Greek NT - one of which means to have an experiential knowledge - a knowledge being actually lived out experientially.

The faithful heart begins with genuine faith which is the faith of Jesus Christ who was perfectly faithful to our Father.

Some of the systematic theologies being expressed on the forum are rooted in ones that have spent centuries stripping faith of its full meaning to the point where it's virtually meaningless - a surface level acceptance of whatever facts are deemed necessary.

Genuine faith is much deeper than this and the words and details that God attaches to it in its fullness go right to bringing about this faithful heart that no longer accepts sin at this thought level. This is the genuine faith of Jesus Christ that He passed down to His Holy Ones. By grace through this faith God is raising truly faithful children conforming them to the likeness of His first-born Son and our first-born brother and Lord.

 

[studier]

The verse you shared, (Hebrews 4:16), is a call to draw near to God. It shows that when we see our weakness, even at the level of our thoughts, we are not told to hide. We are told to come.

But we should also remember why this invitation is given. Just before this, it says that the word of God discerns “the thoughts and intents of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12). Nothing is hidden from Him. So when wrong desire begins in the mind, that is the time of need. That is when we must run to God for mercy and strength.

This does not cancel what Jesus taught about the heart. It confirms it. Jesus said that evil thoughts come from within (Mark 7:21), and that looking with lust is already adultery in the heart (Matthew 5:28). If sin begins inside, then help must also begin inside. Grace is not permission to entertain sin in the mind. The Holy Spirit is help to overcome it.

Jesus taught us to pray, “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil” (Matthew 6:13). That prayer is for the moment temptation rises, even before an outward act happens. And He said, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41). He knew the battle starts in the heart.

So Hebrews 4:16 does not lower the standard. It opens the door to mercy. When we fail in thought, or feel temptation growing, we come boldly to God, not to excuse ourselves, but to receive cleansing and strength. God is both holy and merciful. He sees the heart, and He also helps the heart that turns to Him.

The message is simple. Do not wait until sin becomes action. When you feel the struggle inside, that is your time of need. Go to Him. He gives mercy for what is past and grace for what is ahead.

Agreed. That's why I posted it.

I've found that this is one of the areas that I most readily experience Him doing what He promises. If I sense too much of a struggle with some sinful thought and if I take this to Him asking Him to assist with shutting it down, I can't recall a time where it has not passed from my consciousness.

This is something we have in our arsenal that I don't think enough are aware of.

Good comments.

 

[vassal]

Agreed. That's why I posted it.

I've found that this is one of the areas that I most readily experience Him doing what He promises. If I sense too much of a struggle with some sinful thought and if I take this to Him asking Him to assist with shutting it down, I can't recall a time where it has not passed from my consciousness.

This is something we have in our arsenal that I don't think enough are aware of.

Good comments.

I do the same thing, I ask God in the name of Jesus and he answers quickly and the problem goes away, I learned to rely on him, he provides and guides.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Jesus was referring to His own commands not specifically the ten which were given by Moses. Of course, Jesus' commands embody the essence of the Mosaic law but go much deeper - penetrating to the motives and intentions of the heart. When I lived in Israel, I found that a great many Rabbinical students denied the commands of Jesus. For instance they would not accept that it was a sin to "look upon a woman with LUST. After all, Moses only commanded us not to commit adultery not to imagine doing such things. The letter of the Law only says "do not commit adultery" Imagining you are committing immoral acts is not a sin since you are not actually DOING it, This applies to any and every imagined of perversion which we can do without guilt since it is not real. Of course, Jesus linked ALL behavior to our desires and thoughts

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders
God will judge us for what we allow to go on in our minds. From this we see that modern Judaism consists of many compromises and alliances with Satan

The Ten Commandments are the commandments of Jesus. Exo20:6 Jesus is God. He is the GREAT I AM speaking at Mt Sinai Exo20:1 John8:58 Col 1:16 Exo20:11 Rev14:7 written by God not man Exo31:18

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I do the same thing, I ask God in the name of Jesus and he answers quickly and the problem goes away, I learned to rely on him, he provides and guides.

I wish there was a heart button. This is so important.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus did not come to separate His commands from the commandments given before. He said clearly, “Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil” (Matthew 5:17, ASV). And He also said, “If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments” (John 14:15). The question then is this: what commandments was He speaking about?

When the rich young ruler asked about eternal life, Jesus answered, “If thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments,” and then He listed from the Ten Commandments, “Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal…” (Matthew 19:17–19). So Jesus did not set aside the Ten. He confirmed them.

But He also showed their true depth. In the Sermon on the Mount He said, “Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matthew 5:27–28). He was not adding a new law. He was revealing what was always true before God. The command was never only about the outward act. It was about a faithful heart.

This agrees with what is written in the Law itself. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife” (Exodus 20:17). Coveting is not an outward act. It is something that happens inside. Even in the Ten Commandments, God was already judging the heart.

Jesus also said, “For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed… adulteries” (Mark 7:21). And He taught that a good tree brings forth good fruit, and a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit (Matthew 7:17–20). The root is the heart. The outward sin grows from inward desire.

So the issue is not Moses versus Jesus. The Law and the Prophets already pointed to a heart that loves God. Jesus brought that truth into the light and removed the excuses. He showed that righteousness is not only about what hands do, but about what the heart loves.

As for judging whole groups of people, we must be careful. Jesus said, “Judge not, that ye be not judged” (Matthew 7:1). God alone searches the heart (1 Samuel 16:7). There may be those who deny His words, just as there were in His own days. But the call of Christ is the same for all: repent, believe, and obey from the heart.

In the end, Jesus’ teaching does not weaken the commandments. It makes them deeper, purer, and more serious. God desires truth in the inward parts, not only clean hands but a clean heart.

Wrong! Should anyone trust that in the keeping of law they can either establish or increase(their) righteousness, then they remain under law and under God's wrath. God freely and solely imputes the righteousness of Christ - the only true righteousness - as a gift to those whom He places in Christ, with that being the ONLY way for righteousness to be obtained.

[Rom 10:4 KJV] 4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

[1Co 1:30 KJV] 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

[Gal 2:21 KJV] 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

[Rom 3:19-20 KJV]
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[rogerg]

The Ten Commandments are the commandments of Jesus. Exo20:6 Jesus is God. He is the GREAT I AM speaking at Mt Sinai Exo20:1 John8:58 Col 1:16 Exo20:11 Rev14:7 written by God not man Exo31:18

Wrong! These are His commandments, which commandments, He provides for those whom He saves that they follow them.

[1Jo 3:23-24 KJV]
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.