I am tired. Please define Law as you are using it. thanks, daniel
Is it the two covenants discussed in the Book of Hebrews?
Is it the two covenants discussed in the Book of Hebrews?
The Temporal Law
- Thread starter randyk
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Ok, I see. You're equating the law with the covenant. But these aren't one and the same but are related to each other.
- The law is "the commandments, statutes, judgments."
- The old covenant was "if you will obey My law I will make you a kingdom of priests".
- The new covenant is "I will put My law (those commandments, statues, judgments) in your heart, and forgive your sins".
Notice that two covenants involve God's law. The new covenant couldn't be realized without that object - the law - being placed in the heart of a believer. If the old covenant was the law then it wouldn't exist as an object to be written inside the believer in the new covenant. The law is separate from the covenants but related.
Romans 2 explains how all men will be judged by the law at the end of days. So it still exists. But the covenant at Sinai was specifically made with Israel.
Well, they never were a kingdom of priests, because of their violation 2 months into the agreement by making the golden calf. Since that time there were existing in violation of the covenant with only one tribe ministering as priests (Levi). The promise was to restore them from their violation of the covenant (through the Messiah's work) in order to fulfill the original promise for every tribe to becomes priests.
Not quite.
If the people came up into the presence of God at Sinai they would have been made into a kingdom of royal priests. But they sent Moses instead to hear what God was saying and then asked Moses to report to them. This was why the law was given. The law, given 430 years after the covenant between God and God, the promise of which was given to Abraham, did not annul the first covenant. The promise of a nation of kings and priests remained within the covenant God made with God. This now is the transformation that is given to all who are found in Christ, they become the sons of God through the first covenant.
First covenant, between God and God: I will make you a nation of kings and priests
Second covenant between God and the Jews at Sinai: I will give you provision and protection until the Seed appears from the people.
The first covenant produces sons.
The second covenant, the Law, produced slaves. God kept His end of the deal but the Jews did not, making them beholden to God.
The Law is the second covenant between God and the people at Sinai, the Law and the Ten Commandments.
The first covenant was made between God and God, the promise of which was given to Abraham.
Randy and Aaron , you should consider that Gods plan wasn’t to save us through the old covenant it had a purpose it’s here
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Romans 3:19-20 KJV
before any man could ever need remission of sins , they first had to be given a law that imputes sin to their conscience , otherwise a savior who does for our sins is meaningless
it’s not one failed plan and then a successful plan it was the world fell and God owed man his fault through law , and also showed the result of sin is death “ the sinner must surely be put to death “ that’s why Jesus died because of the conclusion of the law
it was the first half of Gods plan the law was meant to impute n even upon abrams children to make them as guilty as the gentile nations so all the world would have to do this
“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”
Romans 3:21-26 KJV
so this was true from the beginning but hadn’t been revealed until the world had been made guilty
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12 KJV
God had this all planned from before the beginning , the law was meant not to save but to bring us to Christ and his salvation until a person concludes they too are guilty of sin they can never repent or need salvation if you look at longer sections it’s all explained
“But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:23-27,
It’s a plan like building first a foundation and then later the house is built , but you don’t live in the foundation rather in the house built by the lord
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Romans 3:19-20 KJV
before any man could ever need remission of sins , they first had to be given a law that imputes sin to their conscience , otherwise a savior who does for our sins is meaningless
it’s not one failed plan and then a successful plan it was the world fell and God owed man his fault through law , and also showed the result of sin is death “ the sinner must surely be put to death “ that’s why Jesus died because of the conclusion of the law
it was the first half of Gods plan the law was meant to impute n even upon abrams children to make them as guilty as the gentile nations so all the world would have to do this
“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”
Romans 3:21-26 KJV
so this was true from the beginning but hadn’t been revealed until the world had been made guilty
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12 KJV
God had this all planned from before the beginning , the law was meant not to save but to bring us to Christ and his salvation until a person concludes they too are guilty of sin they can never repent or need salvation if you look at longer sections it’s all explained
“But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:23-27,
It’s a plan like building first a foundation and then later the house is built , but you don’t live in the foundation rather in the house built by the lord
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
The law was fulfilled on the cross by the only one who ever kept it as required.
Jesus not only confirmed and obeyed every word (every jot and tittle) as moses require in Deuteronomy. He also became the sacrificial lamb of God who took the sins of the world on the day of redemption to make atonement for sin for those who have not kept the law (every one who ever lived besides Christ)
The law will never fade. It will continue to do what its intended purpose was. To lead people to Christ as a schoolmaster.
One must remember The law was not created for the righteous. But the unrighteousness. Those who have been trained by it to come to christ (like the tax collector who got on his knees) will be saved and come to a new foundation and covenant
Those who refuse to be trained by it, Like the pharisee and religious law pushers today, a few of which we see in this very room) will continue to be burdened by it and refuse to be trained by it. And I fear in the end be judged by the very law they claim they love ad have eternity to ask themselves why they did not heed the warning.
Jesus not only confirmed and obeyed every word (every jot and tittle) as moses require in Deuteronomy. He also became the sacrificial lamb of God who took the sins of the world on the day of redemption to make atonement for sin for those who have not kept the law (every one who ever lived besides Christ)
The law will never fade. It will continue to do what its intended purpose was. To lead people to Christ as a schoolmaster.
One must remember The law was not created for the righteous. But the unrighteousness. Those who have been trained by it to come to christ (like the tax collector who got on his knees) will be saved and come to a new foundation and covenant
Those who refuse to be trained by it, Like the pharisee and religious law pushers today, a few of which we see in this very room) will continue to be burdened by it and refuse to be trained by it. And I fear in the end be judged by the very law they claim they love ad have eternity to ask themselves why they did not heed the warning.
Those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth. Zechariah 4:10
I do not understand why or how people can get so confused about a straight forward fact as the law as it is part of our world. It is holy, it is eternal, it never changes one tiny bit as Christ told us in Matthew 5.
God gave helps to people before Christ to understanding His law, God used fleshly things to help people understand the spiritual law. Things like cutting flesh to mark a person as belonging to God. They are not law at all, never was, they are helps. In Jeremiah it explains that these helps are not needed as we all have the holy spirit to help us.
Christ forgives our sin, it is wiped out as if it never happened when Christ forgives our breaking the law. The law is fulfilled, taken care of. It is part of creation, it is holy, it is still there to guide us to righteousness. It is NOT over and done with, as if now we do not need guidance. That would be like trying to live in a land with no rules for drivers to follow, no stop signs, no speed limits, no right and left lanes.
God gave helps to people before Christ to understanding His law, God used fleshly things to help people understand the spiritual law. Things like cutting flesh to mark a person as belonging to God. They are not law at all, never was, they are helps. In Jeremiah it explains that these helps are not needed as we all have the holy spirit to help us.
Christ forgives our sin, it is wiped out as if it never happened when Christ forgives our breaking the law. The law is fulfilled, taken care of. It is part of creation, it is holy, it is still there to guide us to righteousness. It is NOT over and done with, as if now we do not need guidance. That would be like trying to live in a land with no rules for drivers to follow, no stop signs, no speed limits, no right and left lanes.
The Law was given 430 years after the covenant between God and God.
“What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to nullify the promise.”
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
This specifically references the Jews. No other people were given the Law, only those gathered at Sinai and their descendants.
We are the children of the woman without a husband referenced in Galatians 4, the barren woman under no covenant.
This specifically references the Jews. No other people were given the Law, only those gathered at Sinai and their descendants.
We are the children of the woman without a husband referenced in Galatians 4, the barren woman under no covenant.
Also Galatians 4:
“Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.”
Get rid of the slave woman. The slave woman is the law.
..and her son. These are people who would say to keep the law in the church. Cast them both out. If you have liberty in Christ and come under the law you will abandon your liberty.
“Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.”
Get rid of the slave woman. The slave woman is the law.
..and her son. These are people who would say to keep the law in the church. Cast them both out. If you have liberty in Christ and come under the law you will abandon your liberty.
You say that God means us to get rid of all law! That is not what scripture tells us at all. God's view of the law that we are given out of His love for us is explained thoroughly in the 199th Psalm.
Under the old covenant there were commands to help people know the true law like circumcision. Paul calls those commands the law of Moses. They were not the law ever, they were helps to know the law. Under the new covenant, we are given the holy spirit to help us know the true law behind those commands that are obsolete. Many use Paul to "prove" that God ditched all law and we live in a lawless world. That is misreading Paul and not reading verses explaining that the law is good to follow.
You say that God means us to get rid of all law! That is not what scripture tells us at all. God's view of the law that we are given out of His love for us is explained thoroughly in the 199th Psalm.
Under the old covenant there were commands to help people know the true law like circumcision. Paul calls those commands the law of Moses. They were not the law ever, they were helps to know the law. Under the new covenant, we are given the holy spirit to help us know the true law behind those commands that are obsolete. Many use Paul to "prove" that God ditched all law and we live in a lawless world. That is misreading Paul and not reading verses explaining that the law is good to follow.
The new covenant you speak of is actually the original covenant between God and God given 430 years before Sinai, the promise of which was given to Abraham. Without transgressions, the Law would have never been given. But it was. And it served to bring the promised Messiah into the world through the Jewish people. Now, it is finished, complete. It brought about what God intended: Christ. Now, everyone in Christ is a beneficiary of the 1st covenant, they have the right to become sons of God and handle the affairs of the kingdom of heaven. Unlike the people made slaves under the Law: they receive no inheritance from the Father. A slave has no right to their owner's estate.
[
amen that’s a much better understanding the ot law Christ fulfilling it made it complete and understandable he maginifies it in the gospel and makes it life rather than death
“Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.”
Isaiah 42:18-21
The law isn’t simply “ don’t commit adultery “ when it’s magnified by the Lord it works in and for us to keep that law of not committing adultery and fornication it goes from don’t commit adultery , to the spirit that keeps righteousness “ don’t look at others with lustful imaginations or you are committing adultery in your hearts where the Holy Spirit is meant to dwell .
if we keep the spirit , we’re never going to act in the flesh and commit sin like adultery .
the New Testament makes us able to keep the requirements but not because we observe the old , we rather let the new change our heart and mind so we keep it by what Jesus word creates in us
our law is the gospel the spirit found in Christs teachings like
forgiveness to those who sin against us , rather than accusing and stoning them , like mercy for the merciful and judgement for the judgemental. The gospel doesn’t mean we can now transgress the law it makes us able to keep it changing this part where the law of sin resides
“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
Mark 7:21-23 KJV
so the gospel speaks into our hearts like this addressing the old but giving the solution to the transgressor
“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:
Matthew 5:21-22
if we don’t allow anger , resentment , greed , pride ect to rule our hearts we’re not going to kill and commit violence against the law and become transgressors again
“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
Matthew 5:27-28 KJV
if we deal with lust and wandering eyes and thoughts about adultery and fornications we will never have the motivation to commit adultery and immorality in this area
the law isn’t meant to be observed as the Israelites did they didn’t have faith
“But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;”
Romans 9:31-32 KJV
the law is really a witness of Christ through and through with a veil over it but offers understanding of the gospel and inside full today as it has always. Even to give the knowledge of sin
they never got to having faith. Excuse they thought it was about observing outward commandments they never had this part
“Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.”
Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
they weren’t able to do that but Christ did it
“But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Romans 2:29 KJV
The law was a figure for us when Christ came because they couldn’t hear and see
amen that’s a much better understanding the ot law Christ fulfilling it made it complete and understandable he maginifies it in the gospel and makes it life rather than death
“Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.”
Isaiah 42:18-21
The law isn’t simply “ don’t commit adultery “ when it’s magnified by the Lord it works in and for us to keep that law of not committing adultery and fornication it goes from don’t commit adultery , to the spirit that keeps righteousness “ don’t look at others with lustful imaginations or you are committing adultery in your hearts where the Holy Spirit is meant to dwell .
if we keep the spirit , we’re never going to act in the flesh and commit sin like adultery .
the New Testament makes us able to keep the requirements but not because we observe the old , we rather let the new change our heart and mind so we keep it by what Jesus word creates in us
our law is the gospel the spirit found in Christs teachings like
forgiveness to those who sin against us , rather than accusing and stoning them , like mercy for the merciful and judgement for the judgemental. The gospel doesn’t mean we can now transgress the law it makes us able to keep it changing this part where the law of sin resides
“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
Mark 7:21-23 KJV
so the gospel speaks into our hearts like this addressing the old but giving the solution to the transgressor
“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:
Matthew 5:21-22
if we don’t allow anger , resentment , greed , pride ect to rule our hearts we’re not going to kill and commit violence against the law and become transgressors again
“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
Matthew 5:27-28 KJV
if we deal with lust and wandering eyes and thoughts about adultery and fornications we will never have the motivation to commit adultery and immorality in this area
the law isn’t meant to be observed as the Israelites did they didn’t have faith
“But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;”
Romans 9:31-32 KJV
the law is really a witness of Christ through and through with a veil over it but offers understanding of the gospel and inside full today as it has always. Even to give the knowledge of sin
they never got to having faith. Excuse they thought it was about observing outward commandments they never had this part
“Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.”
Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
they weren’t able to do that but Christ did it
“But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Romans 2:29 KJV
The law was a figure for us when Christ came because they couldn’t hear and see
“Many use Paul to "prove" that God ditched all law and we live in a lawless world. That is misreading Paul and not reading verses explaining that the law is good to follow.”
yes indeed
“Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
2 Peter 3:14-18 KJV
we have been given the power to be made right inwardly so those commandments go away when you aren’t wanting to kill , lie , cheat and have other gods , they become in needed commands only because we are following the better word that heals and doesn’t condemn us
In Jeremiah it speaks of a new covenant, and it was absolutely not 400 years before Sinai.
If we were perfect we would need no law, but we are not perfect. We are not slave, we belong to Christ, we are not slaves. We accept Christ within, and by our actions unbelievers should be able to see Christ when they see us. If we refuse to be guided by the law, we cannot have Christ within.