The scriptures 2009

[Hizikyah]

Thats interesting Hizikyah. Where are these copies and how old are they?

there are a number of differnt copies of Matthew that are commonly know and many that are not commonly know but exist. Shem Tob' Matthew, the most riginal in content is from the 13000s, but in content matter it is the most original version of Matt in existence. There are a number of errors in the ggrekk version that are not in the Hebrew version, the easiest one is the gfeneology of Messiah. in the greek version it says there are 14 generations from Babylon to Messiha yet only 13 are recorded, in the Hebrew version there are all 14. It is simply a translation error of the translators thinking that the "Joseph" was Mary's husband hen in fact the Joseph spoke4n of was her father, (Yoseph ben Eil);

Matthew 1:16


Hebrew Mattithyah
And Ya‛aqoḇ brought forth Yosĕph the father of Miryam, of whom was born יהושע who is called Messiah.


New International Version
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.


Mariam's father and husband had the same name, Yoseph/Joseph,


Yosĕph, ben Ěli husband of Mariam(Luke 3:23)
Yosĕph ben Ya‛aqoḇ father of Mariam (Mat 1:15-16)

Honestly the greek version is sufficent, however the henrew version is more precise and little things here and there thatwere lost in translation remain in the hebrew. I think it valuable on many levels, I personally like to look at how the Septuagint handled Hebrew to Greek translation and I think this is a gem in more but also similar fashion.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You should read the rest of the thread.

No need. The multiplication of Bible versions conflicting with each other is of no help to Christians who simply want the Word of God without disputings and murmurings.

BTW there are a few who promote the idea that Matthew wrote his Gospel originally in either Aramaic or Hebrew, and a few of the Early Church Fathers made this claim, but it is unsupported by the actual manuscript evidence.

We should bear in mind that God anticipated that the Gentiles would predominate in Christian churches, and since Greek was the lingua franca of the Roman Empire, it is understandable why the NT was written in Greek, and the Eastern Orthodox Church also adopted the Septuagint for the OT.

If Messianic Jews wish to revert to Hebrew names etc. then they are certainly free to do so. But God in His infinite wisdom chose both Hebrew and Greek, and now English has become the common language of the world. Therefore what has already been established through English usage will prevail (for those who use the English language).

 

[Nehemiah6]

You might want to be careful with remarks like that.

Why? The NT was indeed written in Greek and the existing manuscripts confirm that.

 

[phil36]

there are a number of differnt copies of Matthew that are commonly know and many that are not commonly know but exist. Shem Tob' Matthew, the most riginal in content is from the 13000s, but in content matter it is the most original version of Matt in existence. There are a number of errors in the ggrekk version that are not in the Hebrew version, the easiest one is the gfeneology of Messiah. in the greek version it says there are 14 generations from Babylon to Messiha yet only 13 are recorded, in the Hebrew version there are all 14. It is simply a translation error of the translators thinking that the "Joseph" was Mary's husband hen in fact the Joseph spoke4n of was her father, (Yoseph ben Eil);

Matthew 1:16


Hebrew Mattithyah
And Ya‛aqoḇ brought forth Yosĕph the father of Miryam, of whom was born יהושע who is called Messiah.


New International Version
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.


Mariam's father and husband had the same name, Yoseph/Joseph,


Yosĕph, ben Ěli husband of Mariam(Luke 3:23)
Yosĕph ben Ya‛aqoḇ father of Mariam (Mat 1:15-16)

Honestly the greek version is sufficent, however the henrew version is more precise and little things here and there thatwere lost in translation remain in the hebrew. I think it valuable on many levels, I personally like to look at how the Septuagint handled Hebrew to Greek translation and I think this is a gem in more but also similar fashion.

Basically, there are NO and that is not one single example of an early Hebrew text. Plus, the writers of the NT mainly use the Septuagint in their quotes of the OT, even where it differs from the Hebrew text.

There is no such thing as an original Hebrew text of the NT, so to make statements like the Hebrew is more precise is nonsense, especially considering the use of Septuagint by the NT writers. The facts of the matter is if there are modern Hebrew translations of the NT they are translations from the Greek.

It really is just a Hebrew roots fantasy. It's the same as the fantasy name Yahshua.. that name nowhere exists as the name of Jesus anywhere in history, another fantasy of Hebrew roots.

 

[Hizikyah]

Basically, there are NO and that is not one single example of an early Hebrew text. Plus, the writers of the NT mainly use the Septuagint in their quotes of the OT, even where it differs from the Hebrew text.

There is no such thing as an original Hebrew text of the NT, so to make statements like the Hebrew is more precise is nonsense, especially considering the use of Septuagint by the NT writers. The facts of the matter is if there are modern Hebrew translations of the NT they are translations from the Greek.

It really is just a Hebrew roots fantasy. It's the same as the fantasy name Yahshua.. that name nowhere exists as the name of Jesus anywhere in history, another fantasy of Hebrew roots.

Yes pure fantasy, there being only 13 generations in the greek version...fantasy

there being the correct 14 generations in the hebrew version...fantasy


all these quotes...fantasy

The Ebionites were a Christian sect that claimed to preserve the original autograph of apostle Matthew in Hebrew. It is quoted often by Epiphanius in the 300s. He said its official title was “The Gospel according to Matthew.” (Epiphanius, Panarion 30, 13, 2-3.)

Apostle John told Papias around 90 A.D. about this book of Matthew: “Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could.” (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. iii. 39, quoting Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord)

Irenaeus likewise says: “Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter I, quoted in Eusebius,
Ecclesiastical History, Book V, Chapter VIII.)

Jerome around 404 A.D. wrote of this too: “The Hebrew [Matthew] itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Caesarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered.” (Jerome, Lives of Illustrious Men, Chapter III.)

“Matthew collected the oracles (ta logia) in the Hebrew language, and each interpreted them as best he could.” – Papias (Eusebius, H.E. 3.39.16)

Copies of it still exist today. There are also copies of John and Revelation that I know of in Hebrew.

I think you are the one that lives in the fantasy world.

just like when you tell me im disrespectful for using Yahshua when that was His name;

“Jesus” is word #G2424 Ἰησοῦς Iesous (yee-sous') n/p., 1. (meaning) He is Salvation, Yahweh saves (i.e. the Savior)., 2. (person) Jesus (i.e. Yeshua, Yehoshua), the name of our Lord, also called the Last Adam., 3. (person) Joshua (i.e. Yehoshua) an Israelite, the servant and successor of Moses., 4. (person) Jeshua, also called Justus, an Israelite, a coworker with Paul., 5. (NOTE) (“Jesus” is a valid English transliteration, coming from Ancient Hebrew to Koine Greek (via the Septuagint) to Latin to Old English to Modern English. It is completely acceptable to God (Yahweh) for us call upon the Savior's name as “Jesus,” or “Iesous,” or “Yeshua,” or even “Yesu” as in Christian Arabic or in the Fijian Islands, et al. God prepared for all nations to be able to trust in the Savior and to call upon his name by preparing a language dialect for international use: the Hebraic-Koine Greek. Thus, technically and formally, the pronunciation “Iesous” was intentionally established by the Savior as the common basis for Jewish and Gentile acknowledgment of his Redemption and Salvation, going forth as needed into every tribe, native tongue, people, and nation. “Yeshua” is of course delightfully acceptable to him, when it is not used as an exclusionary name. Love edifies)., 6. (NOTE) (Revelation 3:12)., [of Hebrew origin (H3442 as the shortened form of H3091)], KJV: Jesus, Root(s): H3442, See also: H3091


Root word of “Jesus” is word #H3442 יֵשׁוַּע Yeshuwa` (yay-shoo'-ah) n/l., 1. he will save., 2. Jeshua, the name of ten Israelites, also of a place in Israel., [for H3091], KJV: Jeshua. , Root(s): H3091


Root word of “Jesus” is word #H3091 יְהוֹשׁוּעַ YhowShuw`a (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah) n/p., יְהוֹשֻׁעַ YhowShu`a (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah), 1. Yahweh-saved.2. Jehoshua (i.e. Joshua), the Jewish leader., [from H3068 and H3467], KJV: Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua., Root(s): H3068, H3467, Compare: H1954, H3442

 

[stonesoffire]

I have several works of Jeff Benner in my iBooks. They are excellent for understanding the poetic language of the Hebrew, but I've heard that he has a bias concerning the deity of Jesus in his work, The Scriptures 2008, 2009. I don't know how true this is either, but possibly that is what Stunned was referring to.

Ive just recently purchased The Complete Jewish Bible, which is a translation from Hebrew to English.

There is great value in understanding the names of God in Hebrew. There are Scriptures that refer to both Son and Father, but in our KJV, we will see angel of the Lord, Word of the Lord, and God of Israel when the thought is about the Son. And Lord, referring to Father.

I would not know this if I had not searched, and Benner played a great part in my understanding. God is not really a name or a title is it?

The Hebrews are rich with writings that would edify us greatly but we Gentiles seem to have some kind of elitist thinking when it comes to Israel, and the Jews. Of course the opposite of this is also true.

There is a Hebrew term concerning the manifested Word, which is Imrah, or Memra.

A good thing to know in a debate with someone who denies the deity of Jesus.


As far as Yeshua, this is His name. It translates to salvation. But, if facing a demon, my first thought is Jesus! Never once has He left me down.

 

[phil36]

Yes pure fantasy, there being only 13 generations in the greek version...fantasy

there being the correct 14 generations in the hebrew version...fantasy


all these quotes...fantasy




I think you are the one that lives in the fantasy world.

just like when you tell me im disrespectful for using Yahshua when that was His name;

“Jesus” is word #G2424 Ἰησοῦς Iesous (yee-sous') n/p., 1. (meaning) He is Salvation, Yahweh saves (i.e. the Savior)., 2. (person) Jesus (i.e. Yeshua, Yehoshua), the name of our Lord, also called the Last Adam., 3. (person) Joshua (i.e. Yehoshua) an Israelite, the servant and successor of Moses., 4. (person) Jeshua, also called Justus, an Israelite, a coworker with Paul., 5. (NOTE) (“Jesus” is a valid English transliteration, coming from Ancient Hebrew to Koine Greek (via the Septuagint) to Latin to Old English to Modern English. It is completely acceptable to God (Yahweh) for us call upon the Savior's name as “Jesus,” or “Iesous,” or “Yeshua,” or even “Yesu” as in Christian Arabic or in the Fijian Islands, et al. God prepared for all nations to be able to trust in the Savior and to call upon his name by preparing a language dialect for international use: the Hebraic-Koine Greek. Thus, technically and formally, the pronunciation “Iesous” was intentionally established by the Savior as the common basis for Jewish and Gentile acknowledgment of his Redemption and Salvation, going forth as needed into every tribe, native tongue, people, and nation. “Yeshua” is of course delightfully acceptable to him, when it is not used as an exclusionary name. Love edifies)., 6. (NOTE) (Revelation 3:12)., [of Hebrew origin (H3442 as the shortened form of H3091)], KJV: Jesus, Root(s): H3442, See also: H3091


Root word of “Jesus” is word #H3442 יֵשׁוַּע Yeshuwa` (yay-shoo'-ah) n/l., 1. he will save., 2. Jeshua, the name of ten Israelites, also of a place in Israel., [for H3091], KJV: Jeshua. , Root(s): H3091


Root word of “Jesus” is word #H3091 יְהוֹשׁוּעַ YhowShuw`a (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah) n/p., יְהוֹשֻׁעַ YhowShu`a (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah), 1. Yahweh-saved.2. Jehoshua (i.e. Joshua), the Jewish leader., [from H3068 and H3467], KJV: Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua., Root(s): H3068, H3467, Compare: H1954, H3442

Hi Hizikyah,

All the earliest manuscripts we have are Greek, and the fact that the NT writers quoted from the Greek OT tells us something.

And regarding the name Yahshua, it does not exist for Jesus and never has done. Even Christian Jewish scholars are speaking out against this nonsense. Jesus was never called in hebrew Yahshua. Yeshua yes but not Yahshua! the name does not exist.

Show us one piece of biblical manuscript evidence for Yahshua. Lets show you how ridiculous your idea is. Philip is seen as meaning lover of horses. So by taking your reasoning I should not call myself philip but Horse lover! Ridiculous. Even though my name actually is Philip!!!

 

[MarcR]

This is not a simple question, I will not say a small answer because I beleive it will be twisted adn used to make me look bad, I will fuilly explain amyself, for I should be givin the opportunity to state my case, to ask a question and then deny one that is unfair. Now because elohim is not meaning any single being but rather elohim means strength, to be strong, mighty one , etc. one can not say elohim and be 100% talking about Yah, we know God and god/s are used and one can say "god or "God" and not be talking about the Creator, the Might one of Abraham, muslims says "god" and they are not of YHWH or Yahshua.


So the question would be is Yahshua YHWH, YHWH is the Creator:

It seems to me that the portions of your post deleted for brevity are a lengthy evasion of the question.

John 1:1-14 seems to make it clear that Jesus created all things. So to make it simple: do You believe that "The Word" in John 1:1 and 1:14 refers to Yeshua / Jesus. If yes, do you believe that the statement in John 1:1 that the Word was God means that Yeshua /Jesus is God?


For your information: There is no W sound in the Hebrew language! About 40 years ago many colleges and seminaries began to teach that the ו Vahv has a w sound; but the truth is that the W comes from Arabic and only Hebrew speakers from Arabic speaking countries other than Yemen use it.

 

[tanakh]

I would be suspicious if a translation had no mention of a clear source. Anything connected with the Watchtower Society should be treated as toxic as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It seems to me that the portions of your post deleted for brevity are a lengthy evasion of the question.

John 1:1-14 seems to make it clear that Jesus created all things. So to make it simple: do You believe that "The Word" in John 1:1 and 1:14 refers to Yeshua / Jesus. If yes, do you believe that the statement in John 1:1 that the Word was God means that Yeshua /Jesus is God?


For your information: There is no W sound in the Hebrew language! About 40 years ago many colleges and seminaries began to teach that the ו Vahv has a w sound; but the truth is that the W comes from Arabic and only Hebrew speakers from Arabic speaking countries other than Yemen use it.

He has stated that to his understanding some verses seem to say Jesus is God and some contradict that.

I was hoping for him to post some of the verses that seem contradictory to him. I am sure he will post them for us.

 

[MarcR]

Basically, there are NO and that is not one single example of an early Hebrew text. Plus, the writers of the NT mainly use the Septuagint in their quotes of the OT, even where it differs from the Hebrew text.

There is no such thing as an original Hebrew text of the NT, so to make statements like the Hebrew is more precise is nonsense, especially considering the use of Septuagint by the NT writers. The facts of the matter is if there are modern Hebrew translations of the NT they are translations from the Greek.

It really is just a Hebrew roots fantasy. It's the same as the fantasy name Yahshua.. that name nowhere exists as the name of Jesus anywhere in history, another fantasy of Hebrew roots.

Phil,

The Greek Ἰησοῦ is in fact a very faithful transliteration of the Hebrew יְשׁוּעָ Yeshua. Greek has no יְ y sound; but it is approximated by Ἰη iota heta. Greek has no שׁ Sh sound; but it is approximated by σ sigma. The וּ vahv cholem is faithfully rendered by οῦ omekron ypsilon. The עָ ayn quamets is omited to preserve a masculine ending.

Mt 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
KJV

JESUS is a transliteration of Ἰησοῦ. but the translation of יְשׁוּעָ Yeshua is Salvation. So unlike 'Yahweh', which is indeed
another fantasy of Hebrew roots; יְשׁוּעָ Yeshua is quite legitimate.

The rest of your post is excellent IMO.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

A question occurs to me....am sure I'll have more.
But Hiz, why do you think John the baptist said Jesus was before him and existed before him?

And what do you make of the opening of John? Do you consider the Lamb and the word to be speaking of Jesus?

Oh sorry, a third question when you have time. If you do consider the lamb to be Jesus, what do you make of where they worship Him and say all glory to Him in Revelation when God has stated only He is to be worshiped?

 

[MarcR]

Basically, there are NO and that is not one single example of an early Hebrew text. Plus, the writers of the NT mainly use the Septuagint in their quotes of the OT, even where it differs from the Hebrew text.

There is no such thing as an original Hebrew text of the NT, so to make statements like the Hebrew is more precise is nonsense, especially considering the use of Septuagint by the NT writers. The facts of the matter is if there are modern Hebrew translations of the NT they are translations from the Greek.

It really is just a Hebrew roots fantasy. It's the same as the fantasy name Yahshua.. that name nowhere exists as the name of Jesus anywhere in history, another fantasy of Hebrew roots.

Phil,

The Greek Ἰησοῦ is in fact a very faithful transliteration of the Hebrew יְשׁוּעָ Yeshua. Greek has no יְ y sound; but it is approximated by Ἰη iota heta. Greek has no שׁ Sh sound; but it is approximated by σ sigma. The וּ vahv cholem is faithfully rendered by οῦ omekron ypsilon. The עָ ayn quamets is omited to preserve a masculine ending.

Mt 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
KJV

JESUS is a transliteration of Ἰησοῦ. but the translation of יְשׁוּעָ Yeshua is Salvation. So unlike 'Yahweh', which is indeed
another fantasy of Hebrew roots; יְשׁוּעָ Yeshua is quite legitimate.

The rest of your post is excellent IMO.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Don't want to overwhelm you with questions on your thoughts so I'll only ask your opinion on those three. I appreciate you answering and talking with me.

 

[trofimus]

"The Dead Sea scrolls reveal that a TRILINGUALISM EXISTED IN PALESTINE in the first and second century of the Christian era. In addition to Aramaic, some Jews also spoke Hebrew or Greek -- or both. Different levels of Jewish society, different kinds of religious training and other factors may have determined who spoke what"

Greek, of course, was in widespread use in the Roman empire at this time. Even the Romans spoke Greek, as inscriptions in Rome and elsewhere attest. It is hardly surprising, therefore, that THAT GREEK WAS ALSO IN COMMON USE AMONG THE JEWS OF PALESTINE.

What about Jesus Christ, and the apostles? Did they, too, commonly speak Greek as a "second language"?

"The answer is almost certainly yes. The more difficult question, however, is whether he taught in Greek. Are any of the sayings of Jesus that are preserved for us only in Greek nevertheless in the original language in which he uttered them?

"That Aramaic was the language Jesus normally used for both conversation and teaching seems clear. Most New Testament scholars would agree with this. But did he also speak Greek? The evidence already recounted for the use of Greek in first-century Palestine provides the background for an answer to this question. But there are more specific indi- cations in the Gospels themselves.

"All four Gospels depict Jesus conversing with Pontius Pilate, the Roman prefect of Judea, at the time of his trial (Mark 15;2-5; Matthew 27:11-14; Luke 23:3; John 18:33- 38). Even if we allow for obvious literary embellishment of these accounts, there can be little doubt that Jesus and Pilate did engage in some kind of conversation . . . In what language did Jesus and Pilate converse? There is no mention of an interpreter. Since there is little likelihood that Pilate, a Roman, would have been able to speak either Aramaic or Hebrew, the obvious answer is that JESUS SPOKE GREEK at his trial before Pilate" (p.61).

Similarly, when Jesus conversed with the Roman centurion, a commander of a troop of Roman soldiers, the centurion most likely did not speak Aramaic or Hebrew. It is most likely that Jesus conversed with him in Greek, the common language of the time throughout the Roman empire (see Matt.8:5-13; Luke 7:2-10; John 4:46-53). A royal official of Rome, in the service of Herod Antipas, a Gentile, would most likely spoken with Jesus in Greek.

In addition, we find that Jesus journeyed to the pagan area of Tyre and Sidon, where He spoke with a Syro-Phoenician woman. The Gospel of Mark identifies this woman as Hellenes, meaning a "Greek" (Mark 7:26). The probability is, therefore, that Jesus spoke to her in Greek."

Why the New Testament was Written in Greek, Not Hebrew

 

[phil36]

Phil,

The Greek Ἰησοῦ is in fact a very faithful transliteration of the Hebrew יְשׁוּעָ Yeshua. Greek has no יְ y sound; but it is approximated by Ἰη iota heta. Greek has no שׁ Sh sound; but it is approximated by σ sigma. The וּ vahv cholem is faithfully rendered by οῦ omekron ypsilon. The עָ ayn quamets is omited to preserve a masculine ending.

Mt 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
KJV

JESUS is a transliteration of Ἰησοῦ. but the translation of יְשׁוּעָ Yeshua is Salvation. So unlike 'Yahweh', which is indeed
another fantasy of Hebrew roots; יְשׁוּעָ Yeshua is quite legitimate.

The rest of your post is excellent IMO.

Hi MarcR,

Thanks for your post, I totally agree with Yeshua is correct. Yahshua is not! I stated this in post #87

And regarding the name Yahshua, it does not exist for Jesus and never has done. Even Christian Jewish scholars are speaking out against this nonsense. Jesus was never called in hebrew Yahshua. Yeshua yes but not Yahshua! the name does not exist.

I don't know where Hebrew roots come up with these things.

 

[MarcR]

Hi MarcR,

Thanks for your post, I totally agree with Yeshua is correct. Yahshua is not! I stated this in post #87



I don't know where Hebrew roots come up with these things.

I saw that after I posted this but it was already posted.

The post may still be helpful to some not familiar with the connection between Jesus and Yeshua.

 

[phil36]

I saw that after I posted this but it was already posted.

The post may still be helpful to some not familiar with the connection between Jesus and Yeshua.

Its a very well thought out post, and I am sure we have all benefited from it. Thanks.

 

[MarcR]

Hi MarcR,

Thanks for your post, I totally agree with Yeshua is correct. Yahshua is not! I stated this in post #87



I don't know where Hebrew roots come up with these things.

I don't tend to fuss at variations in vowel pointings. There tend to be variations between 1Chronacles and parallel passages in the Law, the Prophets, and the histories. Also between the Saphardic, Ashkenazi, Litvak, and Sabra dialects there is too much variation to keep track of.

 

[phil36]

Yes pure fantasy, there being only 13 generations in the greek version...fantasy

there being the correct 14 generations in the hebrew version...fantasy

Hi Hizikyah,

Where do you get 13 from? From Jechoniah to Jesus is 14!