the Sabbath

[Inquisitor]

We are saved by grace through faith and those with faith uphold His law Romans 3:31

That is an old interpretation your employing, the Catholic interpretation.

Here is the first verse in chapter 3 of Romans.

Romans 3:1
Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?

Who is Paul talking too here?

The Gentiles, certainly not.

The Gentiles are not circumcised, not under the law.

What is the benefit of circumcision?

Start reading the text yourself and stop blindly quoting verses out of context.

Romans 3:31
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

What is the benefit of circumcision?

Why does Paul establish the law that the Gentiles never knew.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

In the KJV it says, 'handwriting of ordinances'.

Not so in the modern translations. Do you know why the KJV translates dogmasin as ordinances?

It looks as though the Sabbath crew must use the KJV only.
That is my argument your now using.

The law (sabbath commandment) was given at Mt Sinai. I keep jumping up and down on Exodus 20.

Correct, God wrote it with His finger on two tablets of stone.
That's my argument, the sabbath law is Exodus 20.

Do you understand? Sabbath law, law, law, law, ...

Your saying the sabbath law was written in Genesis. I'm saying it was written by God's finger in Exodus 20.

I never said the law was written in Genesis. I said the Sabbath started at Creation God said it did

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Written by God's own finger in Exodus 20!

Agreed, the weekly Sabbath commandment is written by the finger of God. No greater Authority than He,


Col 2:14 says handwritten, not finger written by God.

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The weekly Sabbath is holy and blessed by God. Not the definition of contrary or against

The ordinances were handwritten by Moses.

2 Chronicles 33:8
and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers—only if they are careful to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.

Jos 8:31 as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the Book of the Law of Moses: “an altar of whole stones over which no man has wielded an iron tool.” And they offered on it burnt offerings to the Lord, and sacrificed peace offerings.

All the ordinances that have to do with food, drink feast days etc (the context) also called sabbath(s) that have to do with food and drink are all in the ordinances written by Moses. There is nothing inn the Sabbath commandment that has to do with food or drink. The Ten Commandments was written by the finger of God. Paul made this abundantly clear what he was referring to, but many ignore the context in Col 2:14-17 which points to Heb 10:1-22 because they don't want to come to the light and Truth to God's commandments, but sadly it really only hurts one in the long run. John 3:18-20

 

[Inquisitor]

Agreed. Yet people continue to debate over something supposed so basic made to bless us.

The law blesses no one, the law grants the knowledge of sin. The law condemns.

Paul was condemned by the law.

Romans 7:5
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were brought to light by the Law, were at work in the parts of our body to bear fruit for death.

The law is holy and it condemned Paul and the rest of the Jews.

Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

No one is opposed to obedience. What people are objecting to is the requirement of obedience as a condition of salvation.
Also, Matthew 7:21-23 doesn't actually mean as you say. The ones Jesus tells to depart are those He doesn't know. Hence, they were never saved as eternal life consists in knowing God and Christ...John 17:3.

So Jesus didn't mean what He clearly said. Sounds dangerous to me.

He doesn't know because....1 John 2:4 which is in harmony with what Jesus said plainly Mat 7:23

We are not saved by law keeping, we are saved by Jesus, Keeping God's law is a result of salvation- someone who has been changed by Jesus. John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32 Rev 14:12

 

[SabbathBlessing]

The law blesses no one, the law grants the knowledge of sin. The law condemns.

Paul was condemned by the law.

Romans 7:5
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were brought to light by the Law, were at work in the parts of our body to bear fruit for death.

The law is holy and it condemned Paul and the rest of the Jews.

Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Yeah, Paul can be tricky to understand, many think he made a case for lawlessness, but its not what he taught. I'm short for time but I will be happy to go though Romans 7 with you a little later .

 

[mailmandan]

No one is opposed to obedience. What people are objecting to is the requirement of obedience as a condition of salvation.
Also, Matthew 7:21-23 doesn't actually mean as you say. The ones Jesus tells to depart are those He doesn't know. Hence, they were never saved as eternal life consists in knowing God and Christ...John 17:3.

Amen! We are saved by grace through faith and not by obedience/works which follows. (Romans 4:5-6, Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc,,),

These many people in Matthrw 7:22 had the wrong foundation and were trusting in their works for salvation and not in Christ alone, which sounds so familiar in this thread. Jesus never knew these many people which means they were never saved.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[Cameron143]

So Jesus didn't mean what He clearly said. Sounds dangerous to me.

He doesn't know because....1 John 2:4 which is in harmony with what Jesus said plainly Mat 7:23

We are not saved by law keeping, we are saved by Jesus, Keeping God's law is a result of salvation- someone who has been changed by Jesus. John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32 Rev 14:12

Nope. Jesus meant exactly what He said. You don't understand what the passage says.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Amen! We are saved by grace through faith and not by obedience/works which follows. (Romans 4:5-6, Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc,,),

These many people in Matthrw 7:22 had the wrong foundation and were trusting in their works for salvation and not in Christ alone, which sounds so familiar in this thread. Jesus never knew these many people which means they were never saved.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Actually, when we obey God the way He asks, we are depending on His works Exo 32:16 His righteousness Psa 119:172 His Truth Psa 119:151 , when we keep our own rules instead of God's commandments, well that's something Jesus warns about Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:19-30 as it is depending on our own works, our own righteousness and our own sanctification instead of God's Eze 20:12

Psa 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”
Sounds like the NC to me Heb 8:10

Belief is more than just I believe in Jesus, it means to believe in His teachings and to do them. Not all believers will be in heaven. Many will say Lord Lord (believers) but He doesn't know them not because He doesn't know who they are, but because they were not followers of Him and nor did His will, which is everything He taught and lived as our example to follow 1 John 2:6

 

[mailmandan]

Belief is more than just I believe in Jesus, it means to believe in His teachings and to do them..

There it is. Salvation by works. Roman Catholics make the same error. Belief actually means to trust in Jesus for salvation and not in self.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

There it is. Salvation by works. Roman Catholics make the same error. Belief actually means to trust in Jesus for salvation and not in self.

I never said for salvation, but do you really believe true faith means to only hear what He says and then do what we want? Where do you find that in scripture. We are told to be doers of His Word. James 1:22 Rev 22:14

 

[Sipsey]

I never said for salvation, but do you really believe true faith means to only hear what He says and then do what we want? Where do you find that in scripture. We are told to be doers of His Word. James 1:22 Rev 22:14

Galatians 4:21-31
[21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
[22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
[30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
[31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Galatians 4:21-31
[21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
[22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
[30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
[31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

I'll get back to you on this. Its longer than I have time for at the moment.

I need to run for now, but God bless all!

 

[mailmandan]

Not all believers will be in heaven. Many will say Lord Lord (believers) but He doesn't know them not because He doesn't know who they are, but because they were not followers of Him and nor did His will, which is everything He taught and lived as our example to follow 1 John 2:6

Being a believer includes yet also goes beyond simply believing that Jesus Christ exists, is the Son of God and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened." Even the devil believes that. The critical element of believing that you leave out is trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16)

You substitute that critical element of believing unto salvation with "works" which "follow" believing unto salvation. You also confuse God's will for us to become saved with God's will for us after we have been saved.

All genuine believers who have done the will of the Father by believing in/placing their faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation will be in heaven. (John 6:40) Unlike these "nominal Christians" (make believers) in Matthew 7:22 who trusted in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[mailmandan]

I never said for salvation, but do you really believe true faith means to only hear what He says and then do what we want? Where do you find that in scripture. We are told to be doers of His Word. James 1:22 Rev 22:14

Faith is believing in, trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation. Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Doing/producing acts of obedience "after" we have been saved through faith is "works" and we are not saved by works but FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Your argument about believing includes doing sounds similar to this argument below in blue taken from a conversation that I had with a Roman Catholic who said:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments.

His argument about faith being “defined as” and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. (James 2:14)

 

[mailmandan]

I will never forget a conversation I once had with a previous member of Christian Chat who happens to be SDA and was banned back in 2017. He made this statement to me below which demonstrates that he teaches, "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

 

[Sipsey]

I will never forget a conversation I once had with a previous member of Christian Chat who happens to be SDA and was banned back in 2017. He made this statement to me below which demonstrates that he teaches, "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

I too had an interesting reply when once discussing the Gospel. After quoting the verse about ”believing,” the fellow stood up and proclaimed, “If that all it takes, anybody could get saved,” and left in a huff.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Galatians 4:21-31
[21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
[22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
[30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
[31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Before I respond to this scripture - how do you think it relates to what we have been discussing.

Previously you said this was Christianity 101:

I agree, if we are in Christ we are going to obey His commandments. John 14:15-18 those who are not in Him are opposed to His law Romans 8:7-8.
The Commandments are like a mirror so we can see our sins Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 and our need for Jesus to cleanse and for sanctification and so we are depending on His righteousness Psa 119:172 and not our own because we can't sanctify ourselves, only God can Eze 20:12 Obedience to God shows complete trust in Him to live holy and righteous lives with Jesus leading as our example to follow 1 John 2:6. Disobedience shows our will over His.

 

[Aaron56]

If we stop at the words of Jesus for our doctrine we will understand only a small portion of the gospel. It took "Christ in men" to deliver the full message. This was always the intent of God.

So when people make the argument for following the ministry of sin and death (the Law and the 10 Commandments) by saying "Well, I just believe the words of Jesus" they are denying that Christ said more about this through those He inhabited. Additionally, they deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh of men. This is anti-Christ but it is so par for the course for people who want to put others back under the Law.

1st, their obsession with the Old Covenant makes them blind to the new. 2nd, they require a written list of rules to follow. This is the old way of understanding God and was necessary because the people did not want to come into God's presence. By these two things they would make slaves of their followers. A slave has nothing of value to say to the co-heirs with Christ.

 

[Magenta]

I too had an interesting reply when once discussing the Gospel. After quoting the verse about ”believing,” the fellow stood up and proclaimed, “If that all it takes, anybody could get saved,” and left in a huff.

Reminds me of something an atheist once said to me about how believing in God was easy, to which I responded, "If it was easy, everyone would do it."

 

[Mem]

If we stop at the words of Jesus for our doctrine we will understand only a small portion of the gospel. It took "Christ in men" to deliver the full message. This was always the intent of God.

So when people make the argument for following the ministry of sin and death (the Law and the 10 Commandments) by saying "Well, I just believe the words of Jesus" they are denying that Christ said more about this through those He inhabited. Additionally, they deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh of men. This is anti-Christ but it is so par for the course for people who want to put others back under the Law.

1st, their obsession with the Old Covenant makes them blind to the new. 2nd, they require a written list of rules to follow. This is the old way of understanding God and was necessary because the people did not want to come into God's presence. By these two things they would make slaves of their followers. A slave has nothing of value to say to the co-heirs with Christ.

I don't get how anyone can follow Jesus and stop short of the cross, just to 'observe' his death, like some Rembrandt painting, marveling on its effect on them, while standing afar off behind the velvet rope.