the Sabbath

[mailmandan]

You quoted these verses and tried to justify why we should not practice righteousness by obedience to the law.

We are not under law but under grace. (Romans 6:14) This does not mean we have a license to sin either. (vs. 15)

Faith without works is dead..

Faith that merely "claims" to be genuine but produces no works at all demonstrates that it's not genuine faith but is an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14)

We can't do anything to please God without faith. We can by faith obey the law.

Obey which law? Romans 3:24 -being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

If you have a bad habit of taking God's name in vain, and by faith you are changed in heart, and then you by faith receive God's Spirit, and stop the habit of sinning (taking God's name in vain), you can say the end is freedom from that sin.

Those who are born of God have received a new heart and practice righteousness rather than sin, but that still does not mean that we will never sin again at all. (1 John 1:8-10)

Galatians 5:21 - ..those who practice such things (sins) will not inherit the kingdom of God. No remorse, no repentance just bring on the sinful lifestyle -- descriptive of unbelievers/the unrighteous. 1 Corinthians 6:9 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

God wants to free us from sin.

Of course. 1 John 2:1 - My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

I agree that the righteousness given in Justification frees us from sin we had done. But are we to continue in sin? Are we to stay slaves to sin?

Remaining slaves of sin would be remaining an unbeliever. Believers are no longer slaves to sin.

No Sanctification is about removing sin from the life. God wants to cure and remove the sin completely.

At the moment of salvation, we are sanctified - set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, we read - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time event and is not a process, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process. Here is how I understand it. The believer possesses a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

Act 10:35 But in every nation, the man who has fear of him and does righteousness is pleasing to him.

In regard to Acts 10:34-35, "fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him" is 'descriptive' of a believer/Christian and is not a prerequisite to become saved. Works-salvationists will typically confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture and the end result is salvation by works. We are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) but works of righteousness in association with salvation are the fruit of and not the means of obtaining salvation. God accepts those who fear Him and work righteousness from a right principle, and to a right end, yet their fear of Him and working righteousness are not the origin of their acceptance; but are to be considered as descriptive of the persons, who are accepted by Him in Christ.

Notice the act of doing righteousness.
Rom 6:12-13
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

I am not promoting righteousness in order to be saved. I am saying that righteousness will follow the in the life of the save.

It sure sounds to me like you are trying to have it both ways. You even cite a lot of the same passages of scripture that others who claim we are saved by faith and works cite as well.

Faith will result in corresponding works.

Amen! Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

Do you believe we should act like Jesus? Do you think we should allow God to transform us into the image of Christ?

Of course we should. That is what all born again Christians should strive for.

Sanctification by faith.

Once we are saved and justified by faith we are then sanctified. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

How are you any different then the devil
Who believes in Jesus and understands the gospel truth but makes no choice to give up evil?

I never said anything about not making a choice to give up evil. The devil understands the gospel truth, but the devil does not believe the gospel unto salvation by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation. (Romans 1:16) In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

 

[mailmandan]

Act 5:32 KJV And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The Holy Spirit is given to those that obey Him

So, in regard to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works-salvationists cite this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons.

Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on works. So, in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

 

[mailmandan]

The reason those weren't mentioned was because those were the ones the rich young ruler had not kept from his youth. In fact, he wasn't keeping them in the then present. Rather than point this out directly, Jesus sets before him a choice. In doing so, He shows the young man what was actually in his heart. He did not love God more than his wealth, and it became very apparent to him. That's is the cause for his sadness and his departing. Had he preferred God before all else, such a choice would have had a different outcome.

Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37) The rich young ruler confidently and (self-righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation. (John 3:18)

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (Matthew 19:21-23). He went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

Now if keeping the commandments is the basis or means by which we received eternal life, then this would be the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life. Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - "keep the commandments and you will be saved," yet instead, Paul said - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.."

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[mailmandan]

Regardless, the point is that these laws were mentioned and Jesus said to keep them.
The 10 commandments are a set of laws and people keep removing the ones that don't suit their lifestyle.

Jesus was born under the law (Galatians 4:4) and while He walked the earth the old covenant of law was still in place. Things changed under the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:13) It's not about removing commandments that don't fit our lifestyle. It's about understanding which commandments that believers are to "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) under the new covenant and sabbath keeping is the only one not reiterated under the new covenant.

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 20:2; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on the Church/Christians under the new covenant.

As a matter of fact, the apostle Paul said in Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

 

[TMS]

At the moment of salvation, we are sanctified - set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

What is the difference between sanctification and Justification?

Is there growth. Is the character able to become more like Christ?

 

[mailmandan]

What is the difference between sanctification and Justification?

Is there growth. Is the character able to become more like Christ?

There is a difference between sanctification and justification as I already explained in post #761. There is growth in progressive sanctification to become more like Christ.

 

[TMS]

Remaining slaves of sin would be remaining an unbeliever. Believers are no longer slaves to sin.

"Believers are no longer slaves to sin" you say. I disagree. we all struggle with sin each day. With Jesus we can overcome, Jesus can renew us and transform us. But being a believer does not mean we are no longer slaves. Hopefully by God's grace we are set free. Jesus came to save sinners.

I agree that we are saved or not saved when we are judged. But up until the judgement people can sit on the fence or jump from side to side. People can be close to being saved but never fully commit. Salvation is thanks to Christ's righteousness not ours but that gift is not given to all.

Do you believe sin loses its temping power when we believe in Jesus.
Do you think we are able to continue in sin after we believe in Jesus?

If sin is the transgression of the law and true believer are overcoming sin by faith, then that would apply to the sabbath law too.

So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time event and is not a process, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process. Here is how I understand it. The believer possesses a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

You say sanctification is a one time event.

I see Justification as being washed clean by His blood, Jesus giving us His righteousness to stand perfect in the Judgement. Righteousness is perfect obedience to the laws. Perfectly right before God without fault and sinless.

Justification is imputed righteousness.

This is our title to Heaven

Sanctification is imparted righteousness.

This our fitness for heaven

They are both recieved by faith.

Justification is Jesus covering us with His perfect character and sanctification is Jesus living in us daily. Jesus in us imparting His righteousness and perfect character is not a single event. It is the work of a lifetime.

Back to the sabbath.....
If you are a born again Christian that wants to follow Jesus, the sabbath is a law that has not been removed so we should obey.

 

[TMS]

So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time event and is not a process,

There is growth in progressive sanctification to become more like Christ.

So is sanctification progressive or a one time event?
It is progressive because Jesus is still working in my heart.

 

[mailmandan]

So is sanctification progressive or a one time event?
It is progressive because Jesus is still working in my heart.

Being sanctified "set apart/made holy" positionally in Christ (1 Corinthians 6:11) is a one time event yet progressive sanctification which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives is not a one time event, as I already explained.

 

[TMS]

The reason these points were made is because people have stated that by faith they don't need to keep the law.

I'm trying to point out that true faith will obey the law.

Obeying the law does not make you a legalist.
Obeying it to gain salvation by your own righteousness is legalism.

But if you love Jesus and want to be a child of heaven the law will be a delight.

By faith Jesus will impart (sanctify) His righteousness in us which results in obedience to God's perfect, holy law.

 

[mailmandan]

"Believers are no longer slaves to sin" you say. I disagree. we all struggle with sin each day. With Jesus we can overcome, Jesus can renew us and transform us. But being a believer does not mean we are no longer slaves. Hopefully by God's grace we are set free. Jesus came to save sinners.

I agree that we are saved or not saved when we are judged. But up until the judgement people can sit on the fence or jump from side to side. People can be close to being saved but never fully commit. Salvation is thanks to Christ's righteousness not ours but that gift is not given to all.

Do you believe sin loses its temping power when we believe in Jesus.
Do you think we are able to continue in sin after we believe in Jesus?

If sin is the transgression of the law and true believer are overcoming sin by faith, then that would apply to the sabbath law too.
You say sanctification is a one time event.

I see Justification as being washed clean by His blood, Jesus giving us His righteousness to stand perfect in the Judgement. Righteousness is perfect obedience to the laws. Perfectly right before God without fault and sinless.

Justification is imputed righteousness.

This is our title to Heaven

Sanctification is imparted righteousness.

This our fitness for heaven

They are both recieved by faith.

Justification is Jesus covering us with His perfect character and sanctification is Jesus living in us daily. Jesus in us imparting His righteousness and perfect character is not a single event. It is the work of a lifetime.

Back to the sabbath.....
If you are a born again Christian that wants to follow Jesus, the sabbath is a law that has not been removed so we should obey.

Being a slave to sin means that sin is our master, which is not descriptive of the righteous but the unrighteous. I often hear Roman Catholics use the term "imparted righteousness" which raises a red flag. You seem to mix justification with progressive sanctification. Nowhere under the new covenant are Christians commanded to keep the sabbath day under the old covenant of law and to the contrary we see Colossians 2:16-17.

 

[TMS]

Being sanctified "set apart/made holy" positionally in Christ (1 Corinthians 6:11) is a one time event yet progressive sanctification which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives is not a one time event, as I already explained.

I see your point.
By justification we are made clean and holy so The sanctification that is progressive is what I think of when I compare to the two..

 

[TMS]

Being a slave to sin means that sin is our master, which is not descriptive of the righteous but the unrighteous. I often hear Roman Catholics use the term "imparted righteousness" which raises a red flag. You seem to mix justification with progressive sanctification. Nowhere under the new covenant are Christians commanded to keep the sabbath day under the old covenant of law and to the contrary we see Colossians 2:16-17.

Justification is the platform for sanctification

I agree that if we continue to choose sin as our master we haven't given God our hearts.

What I was trying to say is that as slaves to sin we need Jesus more then ever and we have no power to save ourselves.
As slaves we need to believe and allow Jesus to start the work in us. As slaves we need to develop a relationship with Jesus and allow Him to change us.
When does an alcoholic become washed clean of their guilt? When all desire for sin is gone or when they ask Jesus to renew a right spirit in them.
The closer I come to Jesus the more sins I see in myself.

 

[Cameron143]

Regardless, the point is that these laws were mentioned and Jesus said to keep them.
The 10 commandments are a set of laws and people keep removing the ones that don't suit their lifestyle.

Jesus was a Jew. He was made under the law. His entire purpose in becoming man was tied to the law, so that He could set us free from sin and death.
Jesus, in keeping the law, fulfilled all righteousness. His obedience was accepted by God to qualify Him as the spotless Lamb. His death and resurrection satisfied God's wrath for all who believe.
His perfect life and substitutionary death are what allow our peace with God. He came because we could not keep the law perfectly and would all perish apart from Him.
The only way the law can be kept is by walking in the Spirit. This is the only way fallen flesh will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
While in the Spirit, one is actually led of the Spirit. This is awesome, because the Spirit cannot lead us into sin, as God cannot sin. Neither will He keep us from any good because goodness is in His nature.
So consider:
...you are on a Christian site
...Christians are telling you that they are not led of the Spirit to keep the Sabbath
What are the chances that not at least one person who has said this to you has not come to the place in their walk with God where they walk in the Spirit?

 

[TMS]

Nowhere under the new covenant are Christians commanded to keep the sabbath day under the old covenant of law and to the contrary we see Colossians 2:16-17.

Paul wrote Col 2. If, IF, that is referring to the 10 commandments, Paul is saying they are nailed to the cross. They are against us, contrary to us, and took it out of the way. Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
But Paul also said ....
We should establish the law. It is Holy, just, good and It is Spiritual.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

It can not be the same law.
When people understand that at least 2 different laws are being talked about these verse no longer controdict each other.

James said the law is perfect and Jesus said it would not pass away.

Knowing that the handwriting of ordinances contained yearly sabbaths is helpful.

 

[TMS]

Jesus was a Jew. He was made under the law. His entire purpose in becoming man was tied to the law, so that He could set us free from sin and death.
Jesus, in keeping the law, fulfilled all righteousness. His obedience was accepted by God to qualify Him as the spotless Lamb. His death and resurrection satisfied God's wrath for all who believe.
His perfect life and substitutionary death are what allow our peace with God. He came because we could not keep the law perfectly and would all perish apart from Him.
The only way the law can be kept is by walking in the Spirit. This is the only way fallen flesh will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
While in the Spirit, one is actually led of the Spirit. This is awesome, because the Spirit cannot lead us into sin, as God cannot sin. Neither will He keep us from any good because goodness is in His nature.

I agree.. by the Holy Spirit we are able to walk as Jesus walked.

Think of Martin Luther. He was a catholic monk and he started to read the Bible.
By God's grace his eyes were opened and he started to see the error and made a stand for God's truth. I'm sure the Spirit lead him and guided him. But I also know that not all truth was revealed to Martin.

I do not know all truth and maybe you do not know all truth. It is a process and the Spirit can lead but will not force. If you refuse to see things any other way them the Spirit can force you.

So consider:
...you are on a Christian site
...Christians are telling you that they are not led of the Spirit to keep the Sabbath
What are the chances that not at least one person who has said this to you has not come to the place in their walk with God where they walk in the Spirit?

If everyone I talked to was not impressed about the Sabbath I would be thinking twice but I know many and some strong spiritual testimonies about people that were convicted about the Sabbath.

What does the scriptures say? There are many false spirits and false doctrines.

 

[TMS]

If you refuse to see things any other way them the Spirit can force you.

Then the Spirit can't force you...

 

[TMS]

If the SDA church is right. They made predictions back in their beginnings that just before Jesus returns that Sunday laws would be implemented. Laws that make us rest on Sunday.

I'm not promoting them, or saying they are right, but just wondering what you think. Would it change your appinion if they were right?

Was this a divine prediction. A false prediction, something you never see happening, an idea made up by a false teacher???

The reason I ask is because... how much evidence would you need to change your veiw.
Jesus did miracles and people still refused to listen to the words of Jesus.
Jesus quoted much scripture and they still rejected the truth.

 

[TMS]

. Nowhere under the new covenant are Christians commanded to keep the sabbath day under the old covenant of law and to the contrary we see Colossians 2:16-17.

That is the old covenant and what is the new covenant?

 

[Cameron143]

I agree.. by the Holy Spirit we are able to walk as Jesus walked.

Think of Martin Luther. He was a catholic monk and he started to read the Bible.
By God's grace his eyes were opened and he started to see the error and made a stand for God's truth. I'm sure the Spirit lead him and guided him. But I also know that not all truth was revealed to Martin.

I do not know all truth and maybe you do not know all truth. It is a process and the Spirit can lead but will not force. If you refuse to see things any other way them the Spirit can force you.


If everyone I talked to was not impressed about the Sabbath I would be thinking twice but I know many and some strong spiritual testimonies about people that were convicted about the Sabbath.

What does the scriptures say? There are many false spirits and false doctrines.

I certainly don't know everything. But I do know a little about walking in the Spirit. And like all who truly desire to be pleasing in His sight, I have examined what that consists in.

As far as what the scriptures say, many here were already examining the scriptures with you. So I took a shot from a different perspective.

Grace and peace.