The Richman and Lazarus a parable

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Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#101
Jul 3, 2015
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#101
Could somebody please point out to me where it is written that a parable cannot have real people named in it? I have pointed out this dilemma multiple times in the past, but it keeps being ignored, because NOWHERE is it written that a parable cannot name people. It seems rather extreme to believe something cannot be true simply because it has no precedent.
 
G

garee

Banned
#102
Mar 28, 2016
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#102
Magenta said:
Jesus does not say it is not a parable, either. Accepting the story of Lazarus and the rich man as a parable does not amount to lack of belief, either :oops:


So nobody ever lost money, and rejoiced when the money was found? And
no shepherd ever leaves the majority of safe sheep to find the one lost?o_O

Now I am reminded of why I stopped posting in June... :unsure::censored::cry:
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Amen...without parables Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God spoke not

Yes no one used Egypt as a metaphor to represent the kingdoms of this world and the Pharaoh to represent the god of this world and the promise of a new land that points to the new heavens and earth as a historically true parable ?

Moses striking the rock twice is also not a historically true parable to those who refuse to search for the gospel hidden.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#103
Jun 30, 2015
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#103
Magenta said:
Could somebody please point out to me where it is written that a parable cannot have real people named in it? I have pointed out this dilemma multiple times in the past, but it keeps being ignored, because NOWHERE is it written that a parable cannot name people. It seems rather extreme to believe something cannot be true simply because it has no precedent.
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Fair point, though it’s not the only reason why I don’t think the story is a parable. 🙂
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#104
Jun 30, 2015
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#104
garee said:
Amen...without parables Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God spoke not

Yes no one used Egypt as a metaphor to represent the kingdoms of this world and the Pharaoh to represent the god of this world and the promise of a new land that points to the new heavens and earth as a historically true parable ?

Moses striking the rock twice is also not a historically true parable to those who refuse to search for the gospel hidden.
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The issue I take with this is simply one of definition. A parable is a specific kind of story. The examples you privide fall into a different category.

The disagreement is not one of spiritual faithfulness or insight. Your disparaging is quite unnecessary.
 
G

garee

Banned
#105
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#105
Magenta said:
Could somebody please point out to me where it is written that a parable cannot have real people named in it? I have pointed out this dilemma multiple times in the past, but it keeps being ignored, because NOWHERE is it written that a parable cannot name people. It seems rather extreme to believe something cannot be true simply because it has no precedent.
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The parables set the precedence. Being informed already that "without parable Christ spoke not" giving us his direction to search as for silver or gold the hidden understanding


Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

The spiritual meaning (not fit for the unseen kingdom of God )hid in the historically true parable found I Genesis 19.

When those who left Egypt looked back he also destroyed them in that parable that speaks of the Sabbath rest we have in Christ.

Genesis 19:25-27 King James Version (KJV) And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Salt like fire can be used two ways .One to destroy the other to cleanse

Genesis 19:23-25 King James Version (KJV)The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

I would say you be the judge.... historically true or science fiction?
 
carl11

carl11

Senior Member
#106
Oct 20, 2017
277
31
28
#106
Dino246 said:
Fair point, though it’s not the only reason why I don’t think the story is a parable. 🙂
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Give some examples as to why you think it is not a parable.
 
G

garee

Banned
#107
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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#107
Dino246 said:
The issue I take with this is simply one of definition. A parable is a specific kind of story. The examples you privide fall into a different category.

The disagreement is not one of spiritual faithfulness or insight. Your disparaging is quite unnecessary.
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In order to rightfully divide and seek his approval we need the right 20/20 prescription.

Yes a specific kind of true story, historically accurate.

Your disparaging is quite unnecessary. Just do the work search the parables as for silver or gold.

The Lazarus parable is filled with metaphors just like any signified language that God uses to hide his mysteries in.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#108
Jul 3, 2015
61,166
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#108
Dino246 said:
Fair point, though it’s not the only reason why I don’t think the story is a parable. 🙂
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Scripture says Jesus did not say anything to them without a parable: So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world.” Also, the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only in Luke, directly preceded by other parables. People often talk about the importance of context, but then overlook the context for this, which all seems to tie in with whether or not one believes people are conscious and aware while dead... those who believe the dead are as good as alive, simply deprived of a physical body, say such things as "sleep is just a metaphor" while again conveniently overlooking the fact that asleep and awake are antonyms, not synonyms. But I digress, and I need coffee :D Good morning! :)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#109
#109
Magenta said:
Could somebody please point out to me where it is written that a parable cannot have real people named in it? I have pointed out this dilemma multiple times in the past, but it keeps being ignored, because NOWHERE is it written that a parable cannot name people. It seems rather extreme to believe something cannot be true simply because it has no precedent.
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Agreed!!

It is very interesting to note that the name Lazarus in the Hebrew meaning is "God will help."

Jesus choose this name very carefully since Lazarus in this parable is representative of the Gentile who were outside of the God's covenant.

EPHESIANS 2:12 Remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (RSV)

Jesus used this name on purpose, very interesting that Lazarus (representing the Gentiles) is pictured in the bosom of Abraham too!!!

This did not escape the scribes and Pharisees who were listening to Him.

It is really sad when there is so much significance and meaning to this parable and people make it about heaven and hell, a child's understanding.
 
Locutus

Locutus

Senior Member
#110
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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#110
This parable was aimed at the "righteous" hypocrisy of the Pharisee's that looked down on those they considered sinners.

Luke 18:9-14 Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’

I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#111
#111
Magenta said:
Could somebody please point out to me where it is written that a parable cannot have real people named in it? I have pointed out this dilemma multiple times in the past, but it keeps being ignored, because NOWHERE is it written that a parable cannot name people. It seems rather extreme to believe something cannot be true simply because it has no precedent.
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Another thing to note why this is not a true story is that Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life.

Therefore Lazarus can be neither a Jew nor a Gentile if it is a true occurrence.

This is interesting because Hebrews makes it very clear this has not happened.

Hebrews 11:13 All these [Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc.] died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . 39 And all these [including Abraham], having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. (NASB)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#113
#113
Dino246 said:
This is the only "parable-like illustration" in which a proper name is used.

The degree of detail shared is unusual; most parables are illustrations using analogues familiar to Jesus' hearers. This is a description of torment, which the hearers would not have known firsthand.

These suggest that it is not a parable.
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Can you share how other parable have less details?

Are you saying Jesus is now introducing the concept of hell to his audience?
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#114
Jun 30, 2015
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#114
UnderGrace said:
Can you share how other parable have less details?

Are you saying Jesus is now introducing the concept of hell to his audience?
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To your second question, no; but the audience would not have firsthand knowledge of hell in the same way they would with agricultural analogues.

To the first question, the issue is not the "number" of details but the kind or depth of them. There don't seem to be any hard and fast rules. I suppose this point is a matter of opinion.
 
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