"The rich man And Lazarus..."

[Runningman]

Like I already stated, if this is a parable then Jesus wrongfully quoted Abraham. That would make Jesus deceptive and dishonest. I deem the story to be a factual, historical event thereby dignifying Jesus’ words to be truthful, not deceptive or dishonest, hence I am not calling, nor would I ever call Jesus, a liar.

You would never call Jesus a liar but you called someone who loves Him dearly a liar who never would call Him a liar. You sure are an interesting character.

If I would apply your own judgements against you then you would be the liar. Really what this is is a disagreement of parable versus literal. I have all the proof I need and am unlikely to move on this particular point. So agree to disagree.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You would never call Jesus a liar but you called someone who loves Him dearly a liar who never would call Him a liar.

You just think that. What is your underlying reason for adamantly insisting that Laz and the rich man is a parable?

What doctrine/teaching is threatened by being a real account of real people?

 

[Runningman]

You just think that. What is your underlying reason for adamantly insisting that Laz and the rich man is a parable?

What doctrine/teaching is threatened by being a real account of real people?

I have no horse in the race other than being a staunch defender of the truth of the Bible. If the Bible showed the rich man and Lazarus parable to be a historical event then I’d be right there supporting it.

But to put it plainly, you’ve ignored the proof against this being a historical event. The proof of this being a parable is something like 5:1.

Go back and read my comments here again. You might learn something if you open your eyes and ears. Seriously, good luck and prayers to you waking up.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If the Bible showed the rich man and Lazarus parable to be a historical event then I’d be right there supporting it.

As a matter of fact the Bible -- more importantly the Lord Jesus Christ -- presented the Rich Man and Lazarus as actual historical people who went to Hades but ended up in different sections.

SO RUNNINGMAN IS RUNNING AWAY FROM THE TRUTH. I WONDER WHY?

 

[Jackson123]

I’m just clarifying that Abraham is the rich man’s father. Either spiritual father, seed of Abraham, or both.

Luke 16
24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

Abraham called the rich man son.

Can you explain why Abraham confirmed the rich man in torment is still his son regardless of his situation?

I do not know if rich man is still Abraham’s son but he still feel his

 

[Runningman]

As a matter of fact the Bible -- more importantly the Lord Jesus Christ -- presented the Rich Man and Lazarus as actual historical people who went to Hades but ended up in different sections.

SO RUNNINGMAN IS RUNNING AWAY FROM THE TRUTH. I WONDER WHY?

Doesn’t make sense as a historical event. It’s a parable. I happen to be in agreement with the majority of evangelical Christians and theologians on this particular point.

Why are you fighting against the church?

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

FreeGrace2 said:
Who told you that souls become dead? The devil.

This isn't about our souls. If a soul should die, you wouldn't function at all. No thinking, no doing, no nothing.

This verse refers to being spiritually dead, not functionally dead. There's a huge difference.

Your soul is your immaterial self; complete with consciousness, conscience, feelings/emotions, etc. If the soul dies, you not be here any more. And there would be nothing to save. Think about it.

I wouldn't be here and yet animals are.

Ezekiel, when prophesying to the dry bones had to call on the four winds to breathe into the flesh of those men to make them live again. If those men souls were not dead along with their flesh there would be no need for the breathe of life because according to you souls don't die.

The Bible does not teach unsaved souls are immortal. Even the souls of the elect had to be resurrected. Resurrected from what? Death!

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Runningman]

I do not know if rich man is still Abraham’s son but he still feel his

Right because it’s not helpful for you to condemn the rich man to eternal hell if he’s still Abraham’s son, despite the unchanging words of Luke 16. Therefore, you cast doubt on it.

When will you just accept the plain language of the passage without an ulterior motive?

 

[PennEd]

What doctrine/teaching is threatened by being a real account of real people?

A lot of these guys believe in some form of "soul sleep."

It is understandable, and very human to not want to think of loved ones that are suspected of not being saved, to not be in torments now, and after the judgement.

I think we can all get onboard with that thought. But I trust God. His ways are not our ways. His Word says otherwise. And I believe this account of the rich man, and the doctrines surrounding hell, are there for us to more earnestly spread The Gospel unto Salvation.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus took the sin penalty of mankind. He took God's justice poured out on Him rather than on mankind.

Sorry you didn't know that.

Seriously? Jesus was condemned under Roman rule, so the other 2 were simply being executed for their crimes. However, we know that Jesus WAS bearing all the sins of mankind because of what He said on the cross: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

Know that Jesus perfectly understood WHY He was on the cross, and His prayer in the garden proves that. He asked the question as a "teaching moment" for US, to understand why He was on the cross.

Keep in mind that the Triune God (Father, Son, Spirit) had been in perfect harmony/fellowhip from eternity past. This was a huge break in that, when the Father and Spirit HAD TO turn their backs on the Son, as He was paying for all of our sins.

God cannot fellowship with sin. Period. So when the Father judged the Son for our sins, THAT was spiritual death for Jesus. Total separation from the Father.

That is why Jesus was able to say "it is finished" BEFORE He died physically. His physical death was simply His exit from this planet.

The death that He died on the cross was spiritual and paid for the sins of mankind.

Type in cup in a online concordance and read every verse about cup.....never mind you don't compare Spiritual with spiritual.

 

[Jackson123]

Right because it’s not helpful for you to condemn the rich man to eternal hell if he’s still Abraham’s son, despite the unchanging words of Luke 16. Therefore, you cast doubt on it.

When will you just accept the plain language of the passage without an ulterior motive?

To be in hell one only need not to believe in Jesus, regardless is one Abraham‘s or not

 

[Runningman]

To be in hell one only need not to believe in Jesus, regardless is one Abraham‘s or not

This parable is pre-crucifixion and pre-resurrection. Furthermore, Abraham said the rich man’s family wouldn’t have been persuaded if someone were raised from the dead anyway.

So this is old covenant. People don’t go to torment for having good things in life and there isn’t a warning of a place of torment in Moses and the Prophets anyway.

What else do you need to know to see this is a parable? Extremely curious why we have a number of people here rejecting these plain facts and attacking others who don’t agree.

What doctrine of knotted up and twisted scripture are you protecting that would unravel and collapse if exposed for the falsehood it is?

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

And there is no spiritual or moral lesson for any living person to follow in the account of Laz and the rich man

Tell that to the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

No it's definitely not a parable. I proved it wasn't.

Actually, I have proved the Rich Man and Lazarus is a Parable or the Bible stands in contradiction of itself. I.e., there is no mention of a place of torment in Moses or the Prophets for the rich man and his family to have been aware of.

Since the Bible is error free, it's definitely a parable. You shouldn't be promoting otherwise.

Thank you for your welcome to CC message, and you're righ

I was thinking of your post but it doesn’t settle well with regards to the following:

Scripture does not say, assuredly I say to you today, blessed are the poor in spirit, or assuredly I say to you today, the meek shall inherit the earth, or assuredly I say to you today, the lion shall lay down with the lamb, etc. Therefore to me it seems the word today regarding the thief on the cross means he was going to be in paradise that day.

However, and I’m obviously contradicting myself, I believe Jesus was in hades for three days after He died so there again, where was the thief during that time?

That said, I appreciate what you share and look forward to learning from you.

To make sure we are in the mind of Jesus, the apostles, and the Jews; when you say "the meek shall inherit the earth (matt 5:5)" where exactly do you think that is coming from?

I'm skipping some verse but read all of Psalm 37:

Psalm 37

9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,(Quoted by Jesus Matt 5:5)
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.


Inheritance of the Promised land:

The promise made to the Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), Gen 12:7, 13:14, 15:18, 17:1-22, 27:4, 28:13, 35:12

As the NT points out, the promise of the Jews, the promise of the fathers, the promise to the Son, the promise to all those who put their faith in the Son would be an inheritance in that PROMISE that God made to THE FATHERS via a resurrection(Gal 3:16-20); not fluffy celestial place in another realm that people call "heaven" where their ghost fly's to.

Psalm 2:6-9 LXX
6 But I have been made King by Him, on Sion His holy mountain, 7 declaring the ordinance of the Lord. The Lord said to Me: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the Land for Your possession. 9 You shall shepherd them with a rod of iron; You shall shatter them like a potter's vessel.”


Psalm 2 quoted in the New Testament:
Psalm 2:1, 2 Acts 4:25, 26
Psalm 2:7 Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5 ; 5:5
Psalm 2:8, 9 Revelation 2:26, 27; 12:5; 19:15
Psalm 16:5-11 LXX
5 "The Lord is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou art he that restores my inheritance to me. 6 The lines have fallen to me in the best places, yea, I have a most excellent heritage.

Psalm 16 quoted by Peter Acts 2:25-33 saying it refers to Christ.


Psalm 37:34
Proverbs 2:22
Proverbs 10:30
Isaiah 11:1-6, 9-16 1
Isaiah 61:1-7 LXX (Quoted by Jesus: Matt 3:16-17, 11:5 Luke 4:18-19, 7:22)
Isa 60:19-21 NKJV
21 Also your people shall all be righteous; They shall inherit the land forever, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified.

Isaiah 65:9,17 LXX
9 And I will lead forth the Seed from Jacob and Judah, and He shall inherit My holy mountain, and My chosen ones and My servants shall inherit it, and they shall dwell there. ... (Is. 25:8, 35:10, 51:11, 65:19, 1 Corth 15:26, Rev 21:4).

Dan 12:1-13 NKJV

13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

Acts 7 NKJV, Did Abraham receive THE PROMISE made to him by God, NO!

3 and said to him, ‘Get out of your country and from your relatives, and come to a land that I will show you.’ 4 Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and dwelt in Haran. And from there, when his father was dead, He moved him to this land in which you now dwell. 5 And God gave him no inheritance in it, not even enough to set his foot on.

Acts 13:32
32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers.

Acts 23:6

6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”

Acts 26:6-8 NKJV
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7 To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain.

Acts 28:20
20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”

Rom. 8:16-25 NKJV

16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Romans 9:1-9
to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. . .

” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Romans 15:4-13

4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the [a]patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have the hope. . .
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a [c]servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, 9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written:

Gal 3:16-18-29 NKJV
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. . .

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Eph 2:8-13, 3:6

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

Hebrews 6:12-18

12 that you do not become [a]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, . . . 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, [c]confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two [d]immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we [e]might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,

Heb 11:13, 39

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

A lot of these guys believe in some form of "soul sleep."

It is understandable, and very human to not want to think of loved ones that are suspected of not being saved, to not be in torments now, and after the judgement.

I think we can all get onboard with that thought. But I trust God. His ways are not our ways. His Word says otherwise. And I believe this account of the rich man, and the doctrines surrounding hell, are there for us to more earnestly spread The Gospel unto Salvation.

Explain this passage to me please.

Mark 9:43-48
New King James Version
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life [a]maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 [c]where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into [d]hell, [e]into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into [f]hell fire— 48 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

As a matter of fact the Bible -- more importantly the Lord Jesus Christ -- presented the Rich Man and Lazarus as actual historical people who went to Hades but ended up in different sections.

SO RUNNINGMAN IS RUNNING AWAY FROM THE TRUTH. I WONDER WHY?

Please explain to me why the Rich man had five brothers.

Luke 16:28
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment

 

[Nehemiah6]

Please explain to me why the Rich man had five brothers.

That is simply an inane question. So the straight answer is that his parents wanted a large family. And there is noting wrong with that. Jesus of Nazareth also had a large family.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You just think that. What is your underlying reason for adamantly insisting that Laz and the rich man is a parable?

What doctrine/teaching is threatened by being a real account of real people?

I have no horse in the race other than being a staunch defender of the truth of the Bible.

That is rather hard to swallow, given your view about souls ceasing to exist.

If the Bible showed the rich man and Lazarus parable to be a historical event then I’d be right there supporting it.

One, there is no mention of it being a parable. At least MOST of the parables are labeled as such.

Two, there is NO moral or spiritual truth imbedded in the account. It is a straightforward account of 2 human beings, one saved, and one unsaved, who died and their souls went to Hades, which is where the souls of all OT humans went after death.

Is that part of the reason you fight so hard to deny the reality of it?

But to put it plainly, you’ve ignored the proof against this being a historical event. The proof of this being a parable is something like 5:1.

5:1 WHAT? Please include context if you would like a response.

Go back and read my comments here again.

Don't need to. I already know full well your theory.

You might learn something if you open your eyes and ears.

Condescension will get you nowhere.

Seriously, good luck and prayers to you waking up.

I don't need any kind of luck either. I have the Bible and I have plenty of translations and lexicons to help me understand.

And, most of all, I have the Berean study method, which is having verses that actually SAY what I SAY.

Although, the only reason I SAY something is because the Bible SAID it first.

Unlike yourself. Your only defense is a verse about God being able to kill body and soul, and you take it to the extreme and claim that God WILL do that.

 

[Magenta]

I'm skipping some verse but read all of Psalm 37:

Psalm 37

9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,(Quoted by Jesus Matt 5:5)
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37:37-38

 

[FreeGrace2]

Doesn’t make sense as a historical event. It’s a parable.

Just remove your bias and there is total sense. It is a historical account of real people.

What in that account do you see that cannot make it a real story with real people? There's something you're not wanting to admit.

I happen to be in agreement with the majority of evangelical Christians and theologians on this particular point.

Why are you fighting against the church?

When the majority is WRONG, there is EVERY reason to resist. Obviously.