"The rich man And Lazarus..."

[The_Watchers_2017]

My brother, what you are saying then is that the Bible in its entirety is not the Word of God but rather only most of it is the Word of God.

I'm saying Discernment goes a long way in helping us to understand the Word of God.

But it's just like the most original Greek Text does not have Father Word Holy Spirit in 1 John 5:7 because John never wrote that.

But the Textus Receptus has it in the KJV and if you look at the current KJV BIBLE thread you will see my post explaining how Erasmus just took the Latin Vulgate by passing the Greek and why there's 251 changed Verses in meaning from original text to modern text plus an additional 1000 words.

But when we translate original Greek to English we have same number of words. That tells Scholars and Theologians the TR is corrupted.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

from the Christian Publishing House:
FACTS on the TEXTUS RECEPTUS and the KING JAMES VERSION

BY
Allan A. MacRae and Robert C. Newman
Allan Alexander MacRae was an evangelical Christian scholar

Robert C. Newman is Emeritus Professor of New Testament at Biblical Theological Seminary, and Director of the Interdisciplinary Biblical Research Institute.




How many manuscripts agree exactly with Erasmus' edition of the Greek New Testament?
There is no Greek manuscript that agrees exactly with it. Erasmus made it by combining the readings of several manuscripts, none of them earlier than the tenth century A.D., and most of them still later. In some parts of the New Testament he had no manuscript at all, but simply retranslated from the Latin Bible.

Then why bother to hunt for early manuscripts? Why not simply follow the textus receptus?
God inspired the manuscripts that came from the hands of the original writers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Right. All believers in the Messiah from Adam forward are there as well.

Can you explain what would be misleading if it is a real account of real people, having real conversations?

If Jesus is utilizing Lazarus and Abraham allegorically to represent someone "God has helped" in spite of his poverty that couldn't buy him even a scrap of food, and the "exalted father," who is then self-explanatory as having the last word on any matter, and the rich man to represent the lost in spite of the riches that might otherwise buy him whatever he wants, and the drop of water to represent even a little bit of living water that he'd otherwise had opportunity to enjoy if he'd only listened to Moses and the prophets...

Just nonsense.

then, the only thing left to need it to be an actual event is to be able to use it as proof of eternal torment

Proof that there is an afterlife. Bodies and souls don't cease to exist at physical death, as atheists believe or hope.

though you cannot prove it was not more than a parable with everything in it representing a deeper reality.

What you offered wasn't even cogent. It isn't a parable because Jesus included an obvious real person, Abraham, THE most famous Jew of all time.

Also, that it is speaking of a deeper reality the needs to be understood would be closer in consistency to the teachings of Jesus than any superficial reading of, once upon a time Jane ran with Spot sort of story.

The story is straightforward. 2 men died and went where ALL souls went after death. The poor man to Paradise and the rich man to torments, awaiting his resurrection and the GWT judgment, and then the LOF.

Jesus' account PROVES an afterlife.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"the smoke of" is the subject of the action "going up forever and ever," not their torment.

Read Rev 20:10. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, sure. Just "explain away" what doesn't agree with you. All Scripture is God breathed AND is profitable for doctrinal teaching, rebuke, correction and instruction in righteousness.

Dr Luke wrote what the Holy Spirit inspired him to write.

if this actually happened the DISCIPLES WOULD HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT IT!

One of them DID! Dr Luke. A Gentile disciple.

Regardless of opinions, Luke 16 is IN the Bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus was teaching about the afterlife.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, sure. Just "explain away" what doesn't agree with you. All Scripture is God breathed AND is profitable for doctrinal teaching, rebuke, correction and instruction in righteousness.

Dr Luke wrote what the Holy Spirit inspired him to write.

One of them DID! Dr Luke. A Gentile disciple.

Regardless of opinions, Luke 16 is IN the Bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus was teaching about the afterlife.

except for Prophecy, the Writers of the Books wrote about what they experienced which the Holy Spirit reminded them.

Luke, neither experienced this nor was this Prophecy.

you really need to stop grasping onto straws.

 

[Runningman]

In Luke 7 Jesus forgives a sinful woman then immediately afterwards talks to a Pharisee about His forgiveness towards her. Jesus used a parable at first but then spoke plainly, comparing the Pharisee to the woman, thus Jesus taught using parables as well as actual people and factual historical events.

You’re actually making my case for me. Jesus taught in parables to those who aren’t His disciples. I don’t see that any “historical events” were discussed afterwards. He just discussed her sins being forgiven. This doesn’t prove what you seem to think it does.

 

[Runningman]

If Jesus is utilizing Lazarus and Abraham allegorically to represent someone "God has helped" in spite of his poverty that couldn't buy him even a scrap of food, and the "exalted father," who is then self-explanatory as having the last word on any matter, and the rich man to represent the lost in spite of the riches that might otherwise buy him whatever he wants, and the drop of water to represent even a little bit of living water that he'd otherwise had opportunity to enjoy if he'd only listened to Moses and the prophets...

then, the only thing left to need it to be an actual event is to be able to use it as proof of eternal torment, though you cannot prove it was not more than a parable with everything in it representing a deeper reality. Also, that it is speaking of a deeper reality the needs to be understood would be closer in consistency to the teachings of Jesus than any superficial reading of, once upon a time Jane ran with Spot sort of story.

Another thing needed for it to be an actual event is there being any reference to a place of torment mentioned in Moses and the Prophets for the rich man or his family to even be aware of. There isn’t.

I see there is a reference to a realm of the dead, the grave, but not even one jot or jittle penned about a place of torment in the OT. That’s extremely curious since they needed to listen to Moses and the Prophets to receive advanced warning, but in those very texts there are no warnings of torment.

It says the wicked are destroyed and that the dead know nothing.

That’s also a major clue this is a parable.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
• Luke 16:26 . . Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that
those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over
from there to us.

The chasm/gulf in Luke's story isn't so expansive that people cannot
recognize familiar faces on the opposite side nor hear their voice. And I think
it's reasonable to assume people have been trying to jump in to get away
from the flames.

Luke portrays only a small portion of the geography where Abraham and the
rich man conversed; suggesting that the two locations of the chasm where
the men stood are peninsulas or narrow cornices.

But I rather suspect that the rims of the chasm are straight and parallel like
the banks of a canal; plus extending sufficient distance in either direction to
accommodate hundreds, maybe even thousands, of friends and relatives
seeking to connect with their loved ones and BFF over on the other side.

Although folks aren't permitted to cross back and forth over the chasm for
hugs and kisses, at least they can communicate visually and audibly. I hope
that's still the case because I would hate to think that I won't be able to catch
up with my lost loved ones and my BFF before they're permanently vanquished
to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15.
_

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus didn't tell you that. You told yourself that.

hes making a very good point the rich man lives plentiful while walking past the poor man every day who was begging for crumbs That’s not something you do to your beloved brother

instead you see him and go help you lift him up and feed him embrace him and do all you can to care for him

without love we have nothing ahead worth having

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Another thing needed for it to be an actual event is there being any reference to a place of torment mentioned in Moses and the Prophets for the rich man or his family to even be aware of. There isn’t.

I see there is a reference to a realm of the dead, the grave, but not even one jot or jittle penned about a place of torment in the OT. That’s extremely curious since they needed to listen to Moses and the Prophets to receive advanced warning, but in those very texts there are no warnings of torment.

It says the wicked are destroyed and that the dead know nothing.

That’s also a major clue this is a parable.

it is like all Of Jesus teachkngs he is teaching us about something we can’t know he is t recounting something he saw but is teaching wisdom from God and revelation into the afterlife what happens after a men die to thier spirit

note Both have died they both lives on earth and then died the poor man suffered on earth his home wasn’t here the world rejected him and left him all alone and broken

the rich man flourished in the world it embraced him

yet this man had no compassion on the other in need he didn’t love in deed and truth

“My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬


he lacked the works of faith

“If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:15-17, 24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

faith without works produced can’t help us but brotherly love will

 

[Runningman]

…hundreds, maybe even thousands, of friends and relatives
seeking to connect with their loved ones and BFF over on the other side.

Although folks aren't permitted to cross back and forth over the chasm for
hugs and kisses, at least they can communicate visually and audibly. I hope
that's still the case because I would hate to think that I won't be able to catch
up with my lost loved ones and my BFF before they're permanently vanquished
to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

If this is a literal story, which I still don’t believe, then I highly doubt you’re going to be able to catch up your friends and family in any satisfactory way.

As you noted, there may be hundreds, thousands, or more, people there. How are you going to sift through the screams of agony and torment to ask your BFF “how’s it going ole chap?” Your place in “Abraham’a chest” would be filled with a tumultuous uproar of screaming friends and family in agony, as if from a Stadium of Torment filled with a roaring crowd, day and night, forever.

I can’t imagine who would literally want any part of that. Earth sounds a lot nicer in comparison. That’s just another line of reasoning that leads me to believe this is a parable.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

day and night, forever.

The rich man's circumstances aren't permanent; the worst is yet to come.
_

 

[Mem]

Another thing needed for it to be an actual event is there being any reference to a place of torment mentioned in Moses and the Prophets for the rich man or his family to even be aware of. There isn’t.

I see there is a reference to a realm of the dead, the grave, but not even one jot or jittle penned about a place of torment in the OT. That’s extremely curious since they needed to listen to Moses and the Prophets to receive advanced warning, but in those very texts there are no warnings of torment.

It says the wicked are destroyed and that the dead know nothing.

That’s also a major clue this is a parable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

except for Prophecy, the Writers of the Books wrote about what they experienced which the Holy Spirit reminded them.

Let's see what the Bible says about it.

2 Pet 1:21 - For no such prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

The writers wrote what the Spirit inspired them to write.

Luke, neither experienced this nor was this Prophecy.

Are you suggesting that his two books aren't divinely inspired??

you really need to stop grasping onto straws.

I think you need to get a grip on your shabby view of the Bible.

 

[Snacks]

You’re actually making my case for me. Jesus taught in parables to those who aren’t His disciples. I don’t see that any “historical events” were discussed afterwards. He just discussed her sins being forgiven. This doesn’t prove what you seem to think it does.

Of course it proves it. Jesus taught using parables and real life situations. You just don’t want to acknowledge eternal torment is a reality for some and I’m not sure why.

 

[John146]

this teaching is directly to the Disciples themselves but none of them record it. the one who records it was not in the picture. this is clearly an add in to the Word of God by the RCC

Not in the picture? What does that even mean? The RCC? This teaching goes against the RCC.

 

[Mem]

Another thing needed for it to be an actual event is there being any reference to a place of torment mentioned in Moses and the Prophets for the rich man or his family to even be aware of. There isn’t.

I see there is a reference to a realm of the dead, the grave, but not even one jot or jittle penned about a place of torment in the OT. That’s extremely curious since they needed to listen to Moses and the Prophets to receive advanced warning, but in those very texts there are no warnings of torment.

It says the wicked are destroyed and that the dead know nothing.

That’s also a major clue this is a parable.

A question came to mind as I was reading of Christ's atonement for our sin.
Why is His death sufficient judgment to atone and deliver us from death if living in an eternity of torture is the actual wage of our sin?

 

[persistent]

Seems to me Larson has it all wrong? According to the Hells Population post the guys in the brown robes sure do reach a lot of people. Hell's Population Clock

 

[Runningman]

A question came to mind as I was reading of Christ's atonement for our sin.
Why is His death sufficient judgment to atone and deliver us from death if living in an eternity of torture is the actual wage of our sin?

Good question. If the saved are delivered from the wages of sin being death, but the unsaved live in an eternity of conscious torture then they never completely died. In effect, the the wages of sin wouldn’t be death and the Bible in error in this scenario.

Fortunately, all of that is reconciled with the correct interpretation and rightly-divided word.