The Remnant

[TheDivineWatermark]

As recorded in Romans chapter 11, those of the 12 tribes of Israel, who God blinded for His purposes, will be dealt with after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Pretty much agreed... except for one caveat (maybe two ): "blinded... until the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]" Rom11:25 (which is a phrase distinct in meaning from that of "until the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" Lk21:24--additionally, "the TIMES of the Gentiles" does not refer to what is commonly called "the church age," as many suppose to be the case.)

 

[Jocund]

Since Christians are sealed upon obedience to the gospel message they are not numbered in the 144,000

You know i missed that statement of Wansic = "Since Christians are sealed upon obedience to the gospel message they are not numbered in the 144,000."

Thanks for picking up on that.

1) Paul is a Christian.
2) Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin.
3) Paul could be stand among the 144,000 as a Christian

Which of the three statements do you disagree with?

 

[Jocund]

Scripture references judgement upon the earth being withheld until 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed for their protection. (Rev 7:2-4) Whereas Christians are sealed with the Holy Ghost as the result of having received their spiritual rebirth. (2 Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13)

I came across a commentary today that makes a couple points relevant to this topic. They bolstered what I have understood to be true for some time. "The 12 tribes are not "lost" as some contend."

Revelation 7:4-8:
"John heard the names of 12 tribes with 12,000 from each tribe...sealed and thus protected. The 12 tribes are not "lost" as some contend.
Attempts have been made to identify the 12 tribes here with the church, mostly to avoid the implication that this is literally Israel. The fact that specific tribes were mentioned and specific numbers from each tribe were indicated would seem to remove this from the symbolic and to justify literal interpretation. If God intended these verses to represent Israel literally, He would have used this means. Nowhere else in the Bible do a dozen references to the 12 tribes mean the church. Obviously Israel will be in the Tribulation, and though men do not know the identification of each tribe today, certainly God knows."
(from Bible Knowledge Commentary/Old Testament Copyright © 1983...All rights reserved.)

Are you suggesting that those of true Israel are not part of the body of Christ?

 

[Jocund]

Since Christians are sealed upon obedience to the gospel message they are not numbered in the 144,000

You know i missed that statement of Wansic = "Since Christians are sealed upon obedience to the gospel message they are not numbered in the 144,000."

Thanks for picking up on that.

I just realized I misread your post. The 3 statement question was meant for Wansic!

 

[Wansvic]

Pretty much agreed... except for one caveat (maybe two ): "blinded... until the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]" Rom11:25 (which is a phrase distinct in meaning from that of "until the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" Lk21:24--additionally, "the TIMES of the Gentiles" does not refer to what is commonly called "the church age," as many suppose to be the case.)

I don't see how the two differ. The full number of the Gentiles to come in is going to be accomplished at a specific time. The time in which this occurs is a fulfillment or completion of that stage in God's plan. God will then deal with those of Israel who He blinded in order to bring about salvation for all.

Please share specifics concerning how the two differ in your understanding. Thanks.

 

[Wansvic]

Are you suggesting that those of true Israel are not part of the body of Christ?

No. I am not saying that. I am pointing out that God's plan involves dealing with the 144,000, whom He blinded, after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled/completed.

 

[Jocund]

No. I am not saying that. I am pointing out that God's plan involves dealing with the 144,000, whom He blinded, after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled/completed.

I think @TheDivineWatermark brings up a good point. Why do you assume that the Rom 11's "fulness of the Gentiles" is the same thing as Luke 21:24's "times of the Gentile"?

It's the first I've heard of that comparison.

 

[Wansvic]

1) Paul is a Christian.
2) Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin.
3) Paul could be stand among the 144,000 as a Christian

Which of the three statements do you disagree with?

1. Paul became a Christian after Jesus revealed Himself and Paul obeyed Ananias and was baptized in water and sealed with the Holy Ghost.
2. Paul was definitely a descendant of the tribe of Benjamin. (Rom. 11:1)
3. No, Paul would not have been numbered with the 144,000. Why? Because Paul was sealed by God at the beginning of the time of the Gentiles. Whereas the 144,000 are those whom God will remove the veil of blindness AFTER the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. I am of the opinion that Paul as a Messianic Jew would be included in the multitude consisting of all nations mentioned in Rev. 7:9.

 

[Wansvic]

I think @TheDivineWatermark brings up a good point. Why do you assume that the Rom 11's "fulness of the Gentiles" is the same thing as Luke 21:24's "times of the Gentile"?

It's the first I've heard of that comparison.

Please see post #105. Thanks.

 

[Jocund]

1. Paul became a Christian after Jesus revealed Himself and Paul obeyed Ananias and was baptized in water and sealed with the Holy Ghost.
2. Paul was definitely a descendant of the tribe of Benjamin. (Rom. 11:1)
3. No, Paul would not have been numbered with the 144,000. Why? Because Paul was sealed by God at the beginning of the time of the Gentiles. Whereas the 144,000 are those whom God will remove the veil of blindness AFTER the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. I am of the opinion that Paul as a Messianic Jew would be included in the multitude consisting of all nations mentioned in Rev. 7:9.

I had no idea that some people have this view. So your interpretation is that there are 3 ages? One before the crucifixion, one between the crucifixion and the Second Coming, and then a third age after the Second Coming?

So your position is that no current day people of Jewish descent will be counted among those 144,000? Only 144,000 after the Second Coming?

 

[DavidTree]

1) Paul is a Christian.
2) Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin.
3) Paul could be stand among the 144,000 as a Christian

Which of the three statements do you disagree with?

i love the simplicity that is in Christ

Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

You are greatly appreciated Brother - Thank You for your encouragement in Christ

 

[DavidTree]

1. Paul became a Christian after Jesus revealed Himself and Paul obeyed Ananias and was baptized in water and sealed with the Holy Ghost.
2. Paul was definitely a descendant of the tribe of Benjamin. (Rom. 11:1)
3. No, Paul would not have been numbered with the 144,000. Why? Because Paul was sealed by God at the beginning of the time of the Gentiles. Whereas the 144,000 are those whom God will remove the veil of blindness AFTER the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. I am of the opinion that Paul as a Messianic Jew would be included in the multitude consisting of all nations mentioned in Rev. 7:9.

Please verify point #3 from scripture - thank you

 

[Jocund]

Please see post #105. Thanks.

I don't see how the two differ. The full number of the Gentiles to come in is going to be accomplished at a specific time. The time in which this occurs is a fulfillment or completion of that stage in God's plan. God will then deal with those of Israel who He blinded in order to bring about salvation for all.

Please share specifics concerning how the two differ in your understanding. Thanks.

If you had a village of 100 people, 80 of them were from Gentile tribes and 20 of them from Israelite tribes, if the 80 find Christ, that "fulness of the Gentiles" is met within the village, and the phrasing of Rom 11 suggests that the 20 would then have their blindness lifted and see the fact that their OT scripture pointed to Christ all along.

Now, if after that, the population grew by 50 people in the next year, the fulness of Gentiles within that new generation has not been met, and the new generation from the Israelites wouldn't necessarily not be blinded. The cycle continues. So when Paul was explaining his circumstance of having the blindness removed (literally and spiritually), he was applying that circumstance to his fellow descendants of Israel. It's not that this fullness and unblinding happens at the end of time, it is a continual process.

Now take that scenario and apply it asynchronously across social landscapes, and then add people that will never turn to Christ because they are inherently goats and not sheep (tares and not wheat). Then take consideration for the new generation that came from parents of both sets of tribes. (Was Timothy a Gentile or Jew? etc.) There are goats/unsaved people from all nations, including from the people that are blood descendants of Israel.

Are you with me so far? That's the logic behind "fulness of" being a thing that happens day by day rather than all at once at the end of time. From that perspective, Saul's conversion into Paul marked the necessary 'fulness of the Gentiles' within his walks of life that would lead to his blinding being removed. And so every nonChristian would come into the fold at their intended time, with the life experiences they were intended to have.

The second topic is Luke 21's "times of the Gentiles", which you will notice does not say a singular "time" of the Gentiles, but "times". It is also widely attributed to the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD rather than the Second Coming. I assume you are attributing Luke 21 to the Second Coming: is that the case? If so, why?

Suppose for a moment that we do connect the two, and state that the "fulness of Gentiles" and "times of the Gentiles" were the same thing. If these point to 70 AD, that would mean that all Israel was already saved, and that every nonChristian on the planet is counted as a Gentile. What would stop that interpretation from being the case?

 

[Wansvic]

I had no idea that some people have this view. So your interpretation is that there are 3 ages? One before the crucifixion, one between the crucifixion and the Second Coming, and then a third age after the Second Coming?

So your position is that no current day people of Jewish descent will be counted among those 144,000? Only 144,000 after the Second Coming?

Sorry for not making myself clear. I am saying just the opposite.

The 144,000 are clearly of Jewish descent as specifically stated. According to Paul some of the natural branches who were removed will be graffed back in after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. (Rom. 11:25) I believe these are the 144,000 mentioned in Rev. 7:2-8. While the others of Jewish descent who believed and obeyed the gospel are part of the multitude mentioned in Rev. 7:9.

 

[Wansvic]

Please verify point #3 from scripture - thank you

I have. Do you believe the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled/completed? If so, please explain.

 

[Wansvic]

...
The second topic is Luke 21's "times of the Gentiles", which you will notice does not say a singular "time" of the Gentiles, but "times". It is also widely attributed to the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD rather than the Second Coming. I assume you are attributing Luke 21 to the Second Coming: is that the case? If so, why?
...

The account in Luke 21 concludes with Jesus' return in the sight of man. This did not occur in 70 A.D.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

[Jocund]

The account in Luke 21 concludes with Jesus' return in the sight of man. This did not occur in 70 A.D.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

John the Revelator saw the Son of man coming in a cloud, that doesn't mean that we are currently in a post-Second Coming age. Jesus also appeared unto Paul. It's possible that many people have accounts of seeing Jesus in the sky. The prophetic piece of "seeing" the Son of man does not make the event seen contemporaneous. Therefore it still stands as a possible interpretation that "fulness of Gentiles" and "times of Gentiles" are both references to 70 AD.

And that's just one piece of the conversation. Don't get hung up on the 70 AD argument. The more important question is whether "times of Gentiles" and "fulness of Gentiles" would actually point to the same thing. Even if you could make a case for "times of the Gentiles" to mean the Second Coming, it does not follow that "fulness of Gentiles" would necessarily be the same thing.

If you acknowledge that your position is not necessarily the case, it would be then up to you to make an argument for why we should consider your interpretation more compellingly the case. Can you make an argument for why you believe "fulness of Gentiles" would point to a discrete singular point in time near the Second Coming?

 

[DavidTree]

I have. Do you believe the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled/completed? If so, please explain.

No - to your question.

The "times of the Gentiles" will soon be completed as we are approaching the final minutes of the last hour.

 

[Inquisitor]

The phrase in Galatians 6:16, "the Israel of God" refers to those of [the nation of] Israel who BELIEVED / BELIEVE.

This is why there is a clear grammatical distinction in 6:16 between "[1] peace UPON THEM, and mercy, [2] AND UPON the Israel of God".

One should understand the context of the Galatians epistle, to grasp why Paul is addressing these distinctly.


"the Israel of God" (those of Israel who BELIEVED / BELIEVE) is similar to how Paul, in Romans 2:29 (in the SECTION of Romans 1-3 COVERING "the Jews"... that is, in 2:17-3:20) speaks of, "...he is a Jew, which IS ONE inwardly..." (which is NOT saying, "Gentiles BECOME Jews upon faithing in Christ," NO!--This section of Romans is ABOUT "THE JEWS".)

Follow Paul's OUTLINE (in Romans):

[excerpt of old post]

"But he is a Jew, which IS ONE *inwardly*" is speaking ONLY of Jews (it is not saying that Gentiles who come to faith BECOME "Jews". No.)

One must track with Paul's outline [in ROMANS], here:

[--Romans 1:1-7 - Salutation]

--where he has been covering "Gentiles" from 1:8-1:32 (except for vv.19-21 where he covers each);

--a transition section from 2:1-2:16;

--then covering the "Jews" from 2:17-3:20 (where we find our verse under discussion, 2:28-29);

--then finally from 3:21 forward covers the fact that "ALL [Jews and Gentiles alike] have sinned and come short..."


[end quoting from old post]




I exhort you to do the same. = )



The "Olive Tree" (Romans 11) is speaking of God's governmental ways upon the earth.

Both Calvinists and Arminianists get things wrong when viewing Romans 9-11 (about "nations"--Israel [singular nation], and Gentiles [plural nations]--go thru 9-11 and highlight every reference to "Israel" and "Gentiles" [/"nations"] and their associated pronouns, to see the frequency these are mentioned...); and particularly where Arminianists [incorrectly] believe Romans 11's "thou also shall be CUT OFF" is referring to "loss of salvation," which it is not. (They are misapprehending the overall CONTEXT.)

Very few understand what your referring to TDW. Because their theology, their theological literature, contains a fundamental misunderstanding of the letter to the Romans.

Paul switches from a general introduction to the Gentiles in Rome (chapter one). To a specific conversation with the Jews in Rome, midway through chapter two of Romans. Unfortunately, that switch in the audience that Paul is addressing in Rome. Completely changes the interpretation of the letter to the Romans.

I do not believe this late in the history of the Christian church, that any correction. In the interpretation of the letter to the Romans, can be administered in any effective way. There has been to much water under the bridge of Christian literature.

Romans 2:17-18
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God, and know His will and distinguish the things that matter, being instructed from the Law...

That one line above, produces an alternate understanding of the letter to the Romans.

Hard to accept and impossible to act upon.

 

[Wansvic]

John the Revelator saw the Son of man coming in a cloud, that doesn't mean that we are currently in a post-Second Coming age. Jesus also appeared unto Paul. It's possible that many people have accounts of seeing Jesus in the sky. The prophetic piece of "seeing" the Son of man does not make the event seen contemporaneous. Therefore it still stands as a possible interpretation that "fulness of Gentiles" and "times of Gentiles" are both references to 70 AD.

And that's just one piece of the conversation. Don't get hung up on the 70 AD argument. The more important question is whether "times of Gentiles" and "fulness of Gentiles" would actually point to the same thing. Even if you could make a case for "times of the Gentiles" to mean the Second Coming, it does not follow that "fulness of Gentiles" would necessarily be the same thing.

If you acknowledge that your position is not necessarily the case, it would be then up to you to make an argument for why we should consider your interpretation more compellingly the case. Can you make an argument for why you believe "fulness of Gentiles" would point to a discrete singular point in time near the Second Coming?

John was seeing a vision of events to take place just prior to Jesus' second coming. Jesus' words in Luke 21:23 correlate with the account noted in Rev. 11:1-2. The Revelation account makes the point that a third temple will be built prior to Jesus' second coming. The temple is expected to be erected some time within the first 3 1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation period. Presumably after the peace agreement is signed between the Palestinians and Israel.

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." Luke 21:24-27

"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." Rev 11:1-2