The Rapture

[abcdef]

I believe the resurrection happens at the end of the 7 years period.

Brother MattforJesus,

The 7 times are not 7 years.

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Daniel 4,

The 7 times are shown as a time set by God that is not known to men. The 7 times as used in this passage does not seem to indicate a time of 7 years. It doesn't say exactly how long the 7 times are. In this case the 7 times could have been an "uneven" number in the time of men, say, 13 months, 2 days, 12 hours, or something.

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Daniel 12:5-7, 7,

The angel says from the time of his speaking in Babylon, until the time of the scattering of the power of the holy people (70 ad) will be 3 1/2 times. This statement shows that the first 3 1/2 times is from Babylon until 70 ad.

This would place the beginning of the second 3 1/2 times in 70 ad., and would continue until Israel was restored to Jerusalem. Also known as the times of the gentiles Lk 21:20-24, 24.

This would make the 7 times equal to the time of the statue in Daniel 2. The time from Babylon until Israel is restored to Jerusalem (1967).

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The Revelation is mainly concerned with the second 3 1/2 times, from 70 ad until Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

During this time the Roman dragon beast iron nation persecutes the people of Israel. This story is shown over and over again. Rev is not one continual time line. It shows the natural cut off branches during the ToG's mainly.

The Bible says the saints are given in to the beast's hands for three and one half years, and when he has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished.

Not years, 70 ad until Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

The things that are finished are everything in the last vision in the book of Daniel. Look at the book/scroll that is sealed in Dan. 12:4. Jesus is seen opening the sealed book/scroll in the 7 seals of the Revelation. What the little book/scroll says is the story of the 2W's, which is the second 3 1/2 times.

The beast is Rome/Caesar/RCC/BoR. This is shown in the iron nation of the statue of Daniel 2, the 4th beast nation of Daniel 7, the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns in Rev 12:3.

The 3 1/2 times are from 70 ad until Jerusalem is restored. This the time that Rome has power over the people of Israel. First the Roman Empire until 476 ad., and then the image Roman Empire/Caesar of the RCC and the Bishop of Rome (BoR).

The 3 1/2 times used in the Rev are symbolic of a prophetic time set by God which is not known to men at the time the prophecy was made. So when the prophecy of the 3 1/2 times was made (96 ad), Jesus could have said, something like 70 ad until 1967, but the time was not to be revealed in the years of men, at the time that this prophecy was made.

It could only be understood after Jerusalem was restored.

And the Gospel must be preached in to all the world as a witness to the nations and then the end shall come.

Acts 2:4, ".......out of every nation under heaven."

Col 1:24, "......, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;...."

Which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, so the resurrection has to happen at the end of the 7 years period, for that is when it is the end and the kingdom delivered up to the Father.

1 Cor 15:23-28, 2 Resurrections, #1 Jesus and the OT saints, #2 Those who are His at His coming. Then it is the end where death is destroyed Rev 20:14-15. After that, the kingdom is delivered up to the Father, AFTER death is destroyed, NOT BEFORE death is destroyed (As some teach).

You are right that Jesus comes after the 7 times have passed and Jerusalem is restored, that is the sweetness of the scroll (Rev 11). But the bitterness is what takes place after Jerusalem is restored, that ends when Jesus comes for the kingdom Rev 11:15, Dan. 2 the stone strikes.

 

[Locutus]

AF,

No, Rev 20 does not say Jerusalem gets destroyed. Please read the passage again.

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

It is those surrounding the camp that get destroyed, not the "beloved city." From this small passage we can't tell if it is the Jerusalem we see today or if it's another beloved city. Nowhere in the Bible is Jerusalem called, "beloved." However, saints are frequently called "beloved" in the NT. Perhaps its the church which gets surrounded. We simply do not know.

I agree whatever is happening in this passage happens after the millennium is over. Thus the "millennium" which is really the "thousand years" begins at the Cross or Pentecost, transitions for 40 years, then the millennium is in full swing from 70 AD and through today. Then this crazy event of Rev 20 happens and presumably a new age will begin after that.

The Jews only really spoke of or were concerned with two ages PL, the Mosaic age and the age of Messiah.

"This age" in which Jesus and Paul lived and "the age" to come - the "this age" that Paul and Jesus lived in was the Mosaic age which was coming to an end (see Hebrews) - the age "to come" which was already "breaking" in was the age of Messiah which are currently in.

Paul stated that the "rulers of this age" i.e. the Mosaic age were the Jews who killed the Lord Jesus:

1 Cor 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;

The rules of "this age" in the above were passing away in the time of Paul and indeed did so in the destruction brought on them in 70 AD.

The Jews considered the Sanhedrin the rulers and not a foreign power:

Acts 3:15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.

Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also.

The only conclusion is that the age of Messiah was fully established at that time, and we know from Daniel that the age/rule of Messiah never ends, so to posit an age after this is not biblically supported as Daniel states:

Dan 2:44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

Dispensational "theologies" claim that the above kingdom will be established during the time of the "revived" Roman empire which is not found in the bible but an invention of poor "theology".

Jesus set up his kingdom in the days of Rome in the 1st century - a spiritual kingdom:

His rule or the age of Messiah never ends:

Luke 1:33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

The above effectively kills the idea of a "thousand year" literal millennium.

We are either in the Mosaic age (which dispensationalists claim ended at the cross) or the age of Messiah.

Get Don K. Preston's book "The Last Days Identified!".

 

[Deade]

Get Don K. Preston's book "The Last Days Identified!".

Preterist & Amillennialism. Why not let them just buy the book?

 

[PlainWord]

AF,

See what happens directly after the fire from heaven, the last judgment and death is destroyed..

This is the last scene on material planet earth. After this event the universe heavens and the planet earth fly away from the "face" of Jesus in His glory.

Please be careful using only Revelation as a source for new doctrine, not found elsewhere, as Revelation is a highly figurative book with tons of OT symbolism. Pretty much everything in Rev 20 takes place in the spiritual realm. It is the devil bound in the abyss. It is the beheaded reigning with Jesus. It is the rest of the dead that don't live again until a thousands years have expired. It is those who rise in the first resurrection who do not face the second death. It is the devil who is cast into the LoF after the thousand years. God's throne is found in heaven. The Book of Life is found in heaven. The dead (to be judged) standing before the throne are in the spiritual realm. The sea gave up the dead (not living). Death and Hades gave up dead (not living). The LoF where the damned are cast is found in the spiritual realm. Those judged - all of them - were dead. None were alive or living.

This leaves us with only one piece of Rev 20 to possibly apply to the physical realm starting with the devil being loosed, however, we are not told that the devil is entering the physical realm, rather it appears he is influencing the nations in the physical realm:

8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea;

9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them.

Notice the planet earth does not appear to end here as only those who surrounded the camp and beloved city are destroyed. We have to assume (because we are not told) that not every mortal is involved in the "attack" on the camp and city. The term "earth and heaven" which fled from the face of God refers to 70 AD Israel, Jerusalem and the temple and not Planet Earth. The third heaven cannot be destroyed because that is where God's throne is and He is judging from there in the next few verses and the beheaded are reigning there with Christ. If the planet and heaven were both utterly and literally destroyed, where will these spirits go? Mars?

 

[Locutus]

Preterist & Amillennialism. Why not let them just buy the book?

They should, but it's hard to raise the deade..

 

[MelchizedekAKAMichael]

Worry about today,the Rapture will get here when 1Thessalonians 4-16-17 comes to pass.

 

[PlainWord]

Brother Loc,

The Jews only really spoke of or were concerned with two ages PL, the Mosaic age and the age of Messiah.

"This age" in which Jesus and Paul lived and "the age" to come - the "this age" that Paul and Jesus lived in was the Mosaic age which was coming to an end (see Hebrews) - the age "to come" which was already "breaking" in was the age of Messiah which are currently in.

Paul stated that the "rulers of this age" i.e. the Mosaic age were the Jews who killed the Lord Jesus:

1 Cor 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;

The rules of "this age" in the above were passing away in the time of Paul and indeed did so in the destruction brought on them in 70 AD.

The Jews considered the Sanhedrin the rulers and not a foreign power:

Acts 3:15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.

Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also.

100% in total agreement with everything you said above!!

The only conclusion is that the age of Messiah was fully established at that time, and we know from Daniel that the age/rule of Messiah never ends, so to posit an age after this is not biblically supported as Daniel states:

Was it fully established at the time of Pentecost? Did Christ return in His kingdom then? Why were they told to "look up for their redemption draws near" in Lk 21 if they were already redeemed? When were the OT saints released from Hades? Daniel has them getting released at the "time of distress" of Israel (Dan 12:1-2).

I hold to the belief that there was a 40 year transition from the Cross to 70 AD for our age to be established and the Law to pass. Heb 6 clearly states that in Paul's day they were only "tasting the age to come." They were not honoring the sacrificial system for sure so the Law for them passed but it wasn't fully gone until the temple was destroyed. I like the 40 year transition because that's the same period they had coming out of Egypt.

 

[PlainWord]

Worry about today,the Rapture will get here when 1Thessalonians 4-16-17 comes to pass.

You mean the one the Thessalonians were told to look forward to? Are they still waiting and watching? Did they ever get rest from the trouble they were enduring? Did Titus ever have any blessed hope in seeing the Lord return? Is the Sanhedrin still waiting to be punished by God and the Lamb's wrath?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Worry about today,the Rapture will get here when 1Thessalonians 4-16-17 comes to pass.

Hi MelchizedekakaMichael,

I would add that we are to be looking for the Lord's appearing and speed its coming.

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

4327/prosdéxomai ("wait actively, expectantly") means being "ready and willing" to give and receive. 4327 (prosdéxomai) then expresses expectant waiting where a person is ready and willing to receive all that is hoped for (note the force of pros). This is active "looking-for-and-waiting!"

We should all be excitedly looking forward to the Lord's appearing to come and gather us according to His promise.

 

[Locutus]

Brother Loc,



100% in total agreement with everything you said above!!



Was it fully established at the time of Pentecost? Did Christ return in His kingdom then? Why were they told to "look up for their redemption draws near" in Lk 21 if they were already redeemed? When were the OT saints released from Hades? Daniel has them getting released at the "time of distress" of Israel (Dan 12:1-2).

I hold to the belief that there was a 40 year transition from the Cross to 70 AD for our age to be established and the Law to pass. Heb 6 clearly states that in Paul's day they were only "tasting the age to come." They were not honoring the sacrificial system for sure so the Law for them passed but it wasn't fully gone until the temple was destroyed. I like the 40 year transition because that's the same period they had coming out of Egypt.

Yes there was a transition period PL - the 40 years are the millennium in my view.

The 1st century saints of the 12 tribes lived and reigned with him a "thousand years" = 40 years. (Rev 20:6)

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The above are the first fruits that came out of the Great Tribulation:

Rev 7:14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 14:4.............These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

James writes to those of the 12 tribes who have accepted Jesus as first fruits:

James 1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

James 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

Peter writing to the scattered of the 12 tribes calls them priests as does John in Rev 20:6

1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen.

1 Pet 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Peter is not writing to Gentiles as is the popular belief. Firstly his ministry was to the circumcised and secondly "scattered" or diaspora is a term used for the "dispersion" of the tribes of Israel, it is never used to describe Gentile believers.

John 7:35 The Jews then said to one another, “Where does this man intend to go that we will not find Him? He is not intending to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks, is He?

Dispersion, scattered, dispersed is the same Greek word diaspora.

 

[shrume]

The 1st century saints of the 12 tribes lived and reigned with him a "thousand years" = 40 years. (Rev 20:6)

lol

You preterists...

 

[Locutus]

You should never asshrume that John is using literal language when speaking of the thousand years.



See my thread:

The Millennium literal or symbolic?

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-millennium-literal-or-symbolic.159071/

 

[shrume]

You should never asshrume that John is using literal language when speaking of the thousand years.

Because you say so? Sorry, not buying it.

See my thread:

The Millennium literal or symbolic?

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-millennium-literal-or-symbolic.159071/

Everyone's got an opinion...

I'm a dispy, and I believe (from scripture, BTW), that the millennial kingdom is still future, and the thousand years are quite literal, as is much of Revelation.

 

[MelchizedekAKAMichael]

Because you say so? Sorry, not buying it.


Everyone's got an opinion...

I'm a dispy, and I believe (from scripture, BTW), that the millennial kingdom is still future, and the thousand years are quite literal, as is much of Revelation.

do you believe the 7 days of Genesis were 7 24 hour days?

 

[shrume]

do you believe the 7 days of Genesis were 7 24 hour days?

Yes.

 

[Ahwatukee]

do you believe the 7 days of Genesis were 7 24 hour days?

Yes, I do. There is nothing in the context that would lead us to believe that the evening and the morning were anything more what they are now. In fact, Jesus tells us how long a day is:

"Rabbi,” they replied, “the Jews just tried to stone You, and You are going back there?”
Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight?"

With God all things are possible and nothing is impossible. Therefore, God was able to perform His creation in six literal 24 hours periods. To be clear, I don't believe that one day was equal to millions of years.

 

[abcdef]

Because you say so? Sorry, not buying it.


Everyone's got an opinion...

I'm a dispy, and I believe (from scripture, BTW), that the millennial kingdom is still future, and the thousand years are quite literal, as is much of Revelation.

shrume,

There are too many problems with a completely literal interpretation exclusively. Everyone would probably agree that there is symbolism in the Bible, the only question would be, what is symbolic and what is not? And if it is symbolic, what is it symbolic of, or about?

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For example, what is the chain in Rev 20:1-2? is Satan, a spirit, bound with a literal steel chain? Or is there some "thing" that he cannot do? (Deceive the nations Magog into surrounding Jerusalem)

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Who is the dragon, Rev 20:2? We would agree that it is Satan, again a spirit, but what is the form of the flesh that is taken by him? To deceive the nations into surrounding Jerusalem? (Rev 12, makes it clear that the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns is the Roman Empire and the nations of Daniel chs. 2 & 7.)

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Who is Magog? A real nation? One singular nation, specifically named Magog that has not come into existence yet? Or has been and does not exist anymore? (Symbolic of the gentile nations that have the spirit of the dragon Satan, to destroy Israel)

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We would probably agree, that the 2 resurrection are literal, yes?, but when do they happen? the #1 resur and the #2 resur? ( 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24, says that there are only 2 resurrections, #1 Jesus, #2 those at His coming, then it is the end where death is destroyed Rev 20:14-15.)

The mill period takes place between the 2 resurrections, Jesus..... that already happened, and at His coming..... which has yet to happen. That shows the period that we are in now, the kingdom/church period that began on Pentecost.

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You can have the answers, but you will have to abandon the time lines of the other traditional theories.

 

[Locutus]

Abandon all hope ye who listen to abc to z...

 

[shrume]

shrume,

There are too many problems with a completely literal interpretation exclusively. Everyone would probably agree that there is symbolism in the Bible, the only question would be, what is symbolic and what is not? And if it is symbolic, what is it symbolic of, or about?

I did not say I hold to "a completely literal interpretation exclusively".

...........................................

We would probably agree, that the 2 resurrection are literal, yes?

Yes. But I also believe there will be a rapture of the Christian church preceding the trib. The rapture will precede both resurrections mentioned in Rev 20.

but when do they happen? the #1 resur and the #2 resur?

The resurrection of the just (AKA the "first" resurrection) will happen after Armageddon when Christ sets up his kingdom (Rev 20:4).

The resurrection of the unjust (AKA the "second" resurrection) will happen at the end of the millennial kingdom (Rev 20:12-13).

( 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24, says that there are only 2 resurrections, #1 Jesus, #2 those at His coming, then it is the end where death is destroyed Rev 20:14-15.)

Jesus' resurrection occurred almost 2000 years ago. The resurrections of the just and unjust, as well as the rapture, have yet to happen.

The mill period takes place between the 2 resurrections

On that we agree.

Jesus..... that already happened, and at His coming..... which has yet to happen. That shows the period that we are in now, the kingdom/church period that began on Pentecost.

We are in the church age, the administration of grace. We are not in the kingdom, that will happen after the trib and 1st resurrection, both of which are still future.

You can have the answers, but you will have to abandon the time lines of the other traditional theories.

Sorry, I agree with very, very little of your eschatological view.

 

[abcdef]

Abandon all hope ye who listen to abc to z...

Brother Locutus,

I always enjoy discussing things with you.

Gen 1:28, subdue the earth, the earth was not subdued in 70 ad.

Gen 8:22, "While the earth remaineth", the physical planet still exists after 70 ad.

The kingdom/church age did not end in 70ad, but continues to this day.