The Rapture
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...continuing...
A-F,
Pretty much everything in Daniel was done if not by 70 AD, certainly by the time Masada fell in 73-74 AD. All of Dan 9, 10, 11 and 12 are done.
You make a good point concerning the statue of Dan 2. However, the fourth kingdom was clearly Rome and Rome has been gone since the 5th century. I already pointed out that Israel was the clay and showed several OT passages confirming this. We know Rome is the iron. The toes and feet holding up the statue were mixed with iron and clay making the statue at this point partly strong and partly fragile and man, Israel put Rome through the ringer, didn't they?
"In the days of these kings (the Caesars) God set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed." This is still first century. The Kingdom came in the first century and is still here today and we are in it. The stone destroys the entire statue, not just the feet. From King Neb all the way down to the Caesars, these men were worshiped as gods. This was going to forever change and by 300 BC it did change under Constantine who made Christianity the official religion of Rome. At that time most of the entire Roman empire was Christian. Therefore, by 300 BC, this passage of Dan 2 was fulfilled:
The context of "whole earth" was the Roman Empire only. The Roman Empire would be called, "the known earth." So even Dan 2 is long ago fulfilled but you were correct in that not everything was done by 70 AD.
Today, IMHO, the only thing left that I cannot show as being completed is the tail end of Rev 20. Rev 21-22 is the opposite of the Fall. It is the restoration that creation (mankind) was groaning for and awaiting.
A-F,
Pretty much everything in Daniel was done if not by 70 AD, certainly by the time Masada fell in 73-74 AD. All of Dan 9, 10, 11 and 12 are done.
You make a good point concerning the statue of Dan 2. However, the fourth kingdom was clearly Rome and Rome has been gone since the 5th century. I already pointed out that Israel was the clay and showed several OT passages confirming this. We know Rome is the iron. The toes and feet holding up the statue were mixed with iron and clay making the statue at this point partly strong and partly fragile and man, Israel put Rome through the ringer, didn't they?
"In the days of these kings (the Caesars) God set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed." This is still first century. The Kingdom came in the first century and is still here today and we are in it. The stone destroys the entire statue, not just the feet. From King Neb all the way down to the Caesars, these men were worshiped as gods. This was going to forever change and by 300 BC it did change under Constantine who made Christianity the official religion of Rome. At that time most of the entire Roman empire was Christian. Therefore, by 300 BC, this passage of Dan 2 was fulfilled:
And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
The context of "whole earth" was the Roman Empire only. The Roman Empire would be called, "the known earth." So even Dan 2 is long ago fulfilled but you were correct in that not everything was done by 70 AD.
Today, IMHO, the only thing left that I cannot show as being completed is the tail end of Rev 20. Rev 21-22 is the opposite of the Fall. It is the restoration that creation (mankind) was groaning for and awaiting.
As I previously stated your pretorist view of everything is accomplished in the spiritual world fails with the prophecy of Jesus.
Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
All the peoples of the world didn't see him return yet. This is where the pretorist view fails the Biblical prophecy of Jesus himself. Therefore I reject as unbiblical the pretorist view. If part is non Biblical then it is scrapped in my opinion
Addendum
Many times there has been a type of partial fullfilment of a prophecy and a later fulfilling of it. Since Jesus didn't return in 70AD it must be an early partial fulfillment. The full fulfillment will be when Jesus returns with all of earth watching and mourning. Technology today with our communications allows this to happen worldwide at once.
Many times there has been a type of partial fullfilment of a prophecy and a later fulfilling of it. Since Jesus didn't return in 70AD it must be an early partial fulfillment. The full fulfillment will be when Jesus returns with all of earth watching and mourning. Technology today with our communications allows this to happen worldwide at once.
Brother Endoscopy,
Isn't there some truth in all the views? I'm not pre-trib but I believe that there is some truth there. Even if it is examining their theories and reexamining our own theories, either confirming what we believe or finding that we are wrong in places.
Can't we keep an open mind, not rejecting automatically everything that some one says? Just because we disagree in a few places?
Maybe the truth is not one theory or another, as they are written, but some of each, somewhere in the middle?
Even pre-trib cannot agree about the number of resurrections. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7? So all of pre-trib must be rejected?
In dealing with eschatology everything is clear as mud. The reason is the symbolic language in Daniel and Revelation. Daniel even states that it is a closed book until end times. As a result theologians over the centuries developed 4 possible views of eschatology.
Here are 4 different links to the 4 theological Biblical views of eschatology.
This is because Daniel and Revelation are written in symbolic language. Daniel plainly states it is closed until the end times. Revelation is written the same way so it too is closed.
https://www.exploregod.com/biblical-prophecy-four-views-of-the-end-times
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm
Introduction to the Four Views
The Time Of The End - Four Views Of The Millennium
I agree
The apostles did not know the length in years of the time periods that were given for them to know. They knew that there was a time before the dest of Jerusalem, the one where no man knows the time. They knew that there would be a time when Jerusalem would be under siege, surrounded and fall. They knew that there would be a time after the fall when the woman would be in the wilderness. And they knew that there would be a time when Jerusalem was restored and there would be a 2nd resurrection.
But ...They didn't know the lengths of the time periods in the years of men.
The fall of Jerusalem was in that generation, they were told that, but as to the time after that, the times of the gentiles, they didn't know the time in the years of men. They knew that time would come, but not how long it would last (3 1/2 times).
I agree
If we are in the mill now, what happens at the end of the mill? The city described is the Jerusalem restored, in the present time. Not the wild branches, the natural branches.
Yes, but what ages? The eternal age after death? The mill age that began on Pentecost? The Law and prophets age? The age after 70 ad? The age when Israel is restored to Jerusalem? The age of judgment before the throne of Jesus?
They are all different ages.
The end of planet earth by fire will be relevant to all living and dead because then judgment and eternity will begin.
The last days began on Pentecost and we are still in them, as the mill.
So, we don't look for a new heavens and a new earth? This earth and universe are it? This earth and universe are all there is and all there will ever be? No, we still are looking for the new eternal heavens and earth, after our death.
Yes, the dest of Jerusalem was only a few years away, but the promised destruction of this planet and universe was known, but the time periods lengths leading up to the event was not known.
These people were not in Jerusalem. The dest of Jerusalem was a great distance from them at that time. When it talks about the elements being burned up, it is describing the elements surrounding them (Asia), air water, earth, and fire, as they will be burned up with them, when the fire comes. Just as when the great flood came, it destroyed every human soul, not just those in Jerusalem.
You say that these things are not known. Maybe you have not looked in the right places. History has confirmed many of the events shown.
You still have not confronted and answered the scripture in Heb 1:2 where Paul states that he is in the last days.
All of these views where written before Israel was restored to Jerusalem. The fact that Jerusalem is restored shows our place in the time line. Before this event it was not confirmed that this event could ever happen. But now that it has happened, it changes the perspective of the time line from future events to past/present events.
The last days began on Pentecost.
The Revelation shows the scroll of the 7 seals being opened.
Just because a theory has some things right, doesn't mean that it is completely right.
Just because a theory has some things wrong, doesn't mean that it is completely wrong.
The main reason people cant understand it is not because its in symbolic language. Much of the Bible is written using symbols types and allegories that can be understood by comparing passages with each other. The NT is a commentary on the OT. Revelation consists of visions that are based on events in the OT. An estimated 100 allusions to the book of Ezekiel are found in it alone. Daniels visions were explained by Angels in his book and Revelation explains other parts of Daniels visions. Instead of treating the Bible as a Whole progressive revelation of gods plan of redemption people cherry pick it to make it fit their own pre conceived ideas. Another stumbling block is to have a purely literalistic mind set which is alien to the Hebrew way of thinking which seeks out the meaning of the text being read. In Daniel much of the book was closed to him because it dealt with events in his future. It also written before the coming of Christ as was the whole of the OT. That's partly why we have the NT scriptures. Revelation is open. Christ himself opened it. the main subject of Revelation is Christ himself. If no one could understand it he wouldn't have told John and those who first read it that the events were going to happen shortly
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Eschatology has the problem of being written in both Daniel and Revelation in symbolic language and Daniel says that it is closed until end times. Revelation is written the same way. This has caused 4 different Biblical views of eschatology. This part of the Bible is as clear as mud. The partial pretorist view is Biblical but the full pretorist view fails with the return of Jesus being seen by the whole earth. This prophecy of Jesus in Matthew is the big issue that causes the full pretorist view to fail being Biblical.
You are ignoring the fact that Daniel states the book is closed until the end times. Revelation written the same way has the same problem.
Here are 4 different links to the 4 theological Biblical views of eschatology.
This is because Daniel and Revelation are written in symbolic language. Daniel plainly states it is closed until the end times. Revelation is written the same way so it too is closed.
https://www.exploregod.com/biblical-prophecy-four-views-of-the-end-times
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm
Introduction to the Four Views
The Time Of The End - Four Views Of The Millennium
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Here is what the angels told Daniel.
Daniel 12 AMPC
4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God’s purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great
Methinks we are not yet in the end times. No tribulation yet that if not stopped will end life on earth. I'm 73 and have studied eschatology since I was in HS.
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Yes, I agree, except that Masada was after 70 ad (the fleeing/scattering), and the prophecy of the scattering of 70 ad was fulfilled by then. So Masada did not happen until after the prophecy of Daniel 12 had been completed.
Yes, always remember that the iron and the 4th beast are Rome.
Yes, but you missed my follow up question about how, if Israel was the clay of the statue, why is it not shown with the other metal nations? Israel was with the gold, silver, brass, and the iron legs, why is the clay not shown as part of those entities also?
The statue shows the nations that rule over the people of Israel until they are restored to military control over Jerusalem. They clay is shown as part of those ruling entities/nations.
Understanding this is one of the most important keys to prophecy. Pre trib must deny the iron and it's structure and change the meanings that are shown.
But it still had the strength of the iron/Rome/nation Dan 2:41.
NO, Rome put the people of Israel through tribulation for 1900 years, like there never was and never will be again!!!!!!!
Rome was given power over the holy people for the 3 1/2 times of the gentiles!!
If the times had not shortened/ended, Israel would not be a nation today.
It began on Pentecost and we are still in it. But what happens at the end of the kingdom age? The fire from heaven.
The fire from heaven, is the stone striking, it is the end of this kingdom age, and the beginning of the judgment age. This planet and universe fly away from the face of Jesus on the throne of God. After everybody has died.
1 Jn 2:16-17, Says that this world with it's lusts will pass away. What age will we be in then?
He is speaking of the planet passing. The lusts will be gone for us when we enter the after life. But they will totally end when the planet ends.
What remains after the statue falls? The wheat and chaff. The wheat is part of the new earth, and the chaff is blown away (flies away Rev 20:11).
So when does this happen? 70 ad? When Jerusalem is restored? When the rule of the gentile nations over the people of Israel has ended? After their rule has ended? After the statue has been completed, and the toes/horns/nations have ended their rule over the people of Israel and they are restored to Jerusalem?
You're decision will set the pattern of understanding for the entire prophetic time line.
The statue tells everything from the captivity in Babylon until eternity. Yes/no?
So now you are saying that the stone striking is not 70 ad, and that they wheat/chaff harvest that happens after the stone strikes happened in 476 ad approx?
The stone becomes the new earth. When it says "filled the earth", it is showing that there is no room left for the old earth. This is shown fulfilled in Rev 21-22, where John is taken to a mountain on the new earth, and sees the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven from God.
This is shown after death is destroyed and this heaven and earth (planet and universe) have flown away at the judgment. When there is no more lust because this world/planet/flesh has ended.
(Jesus is the new living earth. The Father is the new living heavens. The new Jerusalem is the living city of living stones built up into a living temple of the people of God. We will live in the heart of God, Amen.)
The context of the earth was always measured by the people of Israel, not Rome.
Where ever the people of Israel were was the place known as under heaven Acts 2:5.
Why does the statue end in 476 ad? The rule of Rome over the people of Israel was continued by the RCC until 1967.
OK, take that understanding and continue reasoning.
What is the last event that takes place on planet earth? The 2nd resurrection and the fire from heaven. That is followed by the judgment and eternity.
What events take place, just before the resur and fire? The dragon (v 2) with 7 heads and 10 horns (Rev 12/Rome), nations, returns to deceive the gentile nations into surrounding Jerusalem.
The Roman dragon iron beast nation crawled out of the abyss in 1929, nation, NATION. It sits on the seat of the beast in Rome right now. Lying, deceiving the gentile nations that the RCC is the only Israel, replacing Israel as the people of God.
Teaching that God has rejected Israel after the flesh forever. But the FACT that Israel is restored contradicts that teaching and proves that it is false.
Trying to force everything into the 70s AD fails. Where is Jesus returning so the whole earth will see Him? This is His prophecy. It's not in the spirit world but so all of earth will see and mourn. Atheist will then have the evidence in front of them and will ask mountains to fall on them to hide them from Jesus. Too late the are forced to confront the Truth.
You need to take all eschatologyical scripture into account. There are sections in the Gospels and Epistles. Go back and take them into account as well as Daniel and Revelation!!
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To the contrary, His return was seen and recorded. You are using a bad translation, it is not all the people of the planet, it is all the tribes of Israel (earth) that saw Him. Look at the Young's Literal Translation:
"and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory."
In Revelation EARTH = ISRAEL
In Revelation EARTH = ISRAEL
But His presence did return in 70 AD and all the "tribes of the earth" (Israel) mourned because they saw Him. He said He was going to come back to that generation to punish the wicked and reward the just. Do you think He broke that promise?
Go peddle your nonsense elsewhere. Jesus said the whole earth not just Israel. Why do you try to change what Jesus said quite plainly. Are you saying Jesus lied??
Addendum required by the stupid 5 minute rule
I use either NIV or AMPC. In this case AMPC which gives alternate meaning of words when it has more than one meaning.
Compare John 3:16 with four translations. Notice the AMPC adding other meanings to words especially to the word believe in English given a better understanding of the meaning of the normally used believe; trust in, cling to, and relies on.
John 3:16 KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 ESV
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
I use either NIV or AMPC. In this case AMPC which gives alternate meaning of words when it has more than one meaning.
Compare John 3:16 with four translations. Notice the AMPC adding other meanings to words especially to the word believe in English given a better understanding of the meaning of the normally used believe; trust in, cling to, and relies on.
John 3:16 KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 ESV
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
Christ didn't come in 597 BC to punish Judah, it was God that time. Jer 4 discusses the scene and makes clear in vs 26 that the Presence of the Lord was there. We have very similar "cosmic disturbances" in Jer 4 also. See the below Preterist commentary:
What is the meaning of this enigmatic statement: “[O]ne will be taken and the other left”? Jesus’ use of the word
taken in vs. 39 and 40 implies a kind of washing away as if by a flood. In the Book of Revelation
earth is used as a metaphor for the land of Israel and
sea represents Gentile Rome. This imagery is not unique to Revelation,
earth is often used to denote a specific nation-state while water imagery like
sea,
waters and
flood often poetically symbolize foreign armies. See
In the Bible “Earth” Signifies the Specific Land Addressed While “Sea” Symbolizes Foreign Nations. The flood of Matthew 24:36-41 like the floods of Isaiah 8:7-8; Ezekiel 26:3; Jeremiah 46:7-8; 47:1-2; 51:55-56; Daniel 11:10, 40; and Nahum 1:8 represents the coming invasion of Israel by foreign armies at the time of the end. In other words, the impeding Roman invasion of Israel during the Jewish War is symbolically depicted as a flood washing over the earth in Matthew 24:36-41.[SUP]54[/SUP] The flood of Genesis mentioned in vs. 37-41 is, therefore, a symbol of the destruction of Israel, the earth, by Gentile Rome, the sea, in preparation for its re-creation as the New Jerusalem in
Revelation 21 and
Revelation 22.
[h=2]Fulfilled! A Realized Eschatology Exposition and Commentary of Matthew 24:40: Did the Romans Kill and Exile One-Half of the People of Jerusalem?[/h]
In describing those killed by Noah’s flood, Jesus says that the flood “took them all away.” As stated above the flood in the analogy above represents the Roman army. Therefore, those who were “taken” by this metaphorical flood in v.40 may also represent those who were killed during the Jewish War. The people who are taken away in v. 40 might also represent those who were exiled during and after the Jewish War since being taken away by flood waters representing the Romans also sounds a lot like exile. Perhaps half of the people of Jerusalem were killed or exiled after the Jewish War?[SUP]55[/SUP]
[h=2]Fulfilled! A Full Preterist View and Commentary of Matthew 24:40: Two Reasons why Matthew 24:40 is Not about the Rapture[/h]Matthew 24:40 is often mistakenly cited as evidence of the rapture. Rapture theorists identify those who are taken in v. 40 as the righteous who are raptured. Preterist Author Charles Meek points out that this verse does not appear to be referring to the rapture since in the context of this verse those who are taken in v. 40 are the wicked, not the righteous, since it was the unrighteous who were taken away by Noah’s flood in v. 39.
[h=2]Fulfilled! Matthew 24:43-51 Commentary: What does this Parable Mean?[/h]
In the above verses, Jesus tells a parable concerning His return. The servants in vs. 45-51 are teachers, priests and prophets. The servants who had beaten their fellow servants are the teachers of the Law, Pharisees and wealthy elite who tried to kill Jesus and His followers as is recorded in John 11:47-53 and Acts 8:1-3. This wicked generation that had killed the Messiah and His people were ultimately punished during the Lord's return at the start of the Jewish war with Rome.
He did NOT say "whole earth!!!" Your translation says, "whole earth" because those who translated put their own spin on it. I showed you the literal translation. It says, "all the tribes of the earth." In the Bible, what nation had tribes??????? How many tribes did they have? Do you find 12 tribes mentioned in Rev 7? Guess what? The tribal system has long since been abandoned.