The Rapture

[tanakh]

Tanakh,

What does the following phase mean to you "The Day of the Lord?" How about this one "I will keep you from the hour of trial."

The day of the Lord is not a day, but a period of time in which God is going to pour out his wrath. Likewise, the "hour of trial" is not an hour in length, but is another designation for "the day of the Lord."

"and I will raise Him up at the last day" is not referring to a specific day but the last times, the last days, end times.

So you say but I prefer to use common sense ,logic and the taking of Christs statements as they appear in Scripture as my guide. I find it very strange that countless numbers of believers down the centuries have read these words and come to the same conclusion as I have as to what they mean. Many of those have been gifted with a far greater Spiritual and intellectual capacity than either of us can hope for and yet you appear to be especially chosen to decipher it all for us simple folk.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I really encourage everyone to study history as well as the Gospel and get things right. Do not be led astray by the many false doctrines that have crept into the Church these past 180 years or so.

History tells us that Augustine of Hippo managed to lead just about all the Protestants astray. So you could quote reams of Protestant and ECF writings all influenced by this man's ideas. However, Christians need to simply study the Word and set aside the ideas of men. The imminent Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the saints has been embedded in Scripture since Christ was on earth. We do not need to depend on any man for this teaching.

 

[PlainWord]

History tells us that Augustine of Hippo managed to lead just about all the Protestants astray. So you could quote reams of Protestant and ECF writings all influenced by this man's ideas. However, Christians need to simply study the Word and set aside the ideas of men. The imminent Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the saints has been embedded in Scripture since Christ was on earth. We do not need to depend on any man for this teaching.

Here are some quotes from your heroes of the "Rapture Cult." How have these predictions turned out so far? Should we place any credibility in anything said by the discredited? What a joke and an embarrassment these fools have been to the Church in site of the world.

Hal Lindsey - "What a way to live! With optimism, with anticipation, with excitement. We should be living like persons who don’t expect to be around much longer" | ”I also said that ‘if’ a generation was forty years and ‘if’ the generation of the ‘fig tree’ (Matthew 24:32-34) started with the foundation of the state of Israel, then Jesus ‘might come back by 1988.’

Jack Van Impe - "Procreation still takes place during this era of time because those who survived the tribulation hour enter the Millennium with human bodies. The believers upon the thrones possess resurrected bodies and do not bear children, but the others do." (Revelation Revealed, p. 239) | "By the year 2001, there will be global chaos. (It will) usher in international chaos such as we've never seen in our history.. drought, war, malaria, and hunger afflicting entire populations throughout the [African] continent..." ("On the Edge of Eternity") | "the composition of the number “666” spells the word VISA – the exact name of today’s most accepted and popular credit card” (11:59 and Counting, pp.106,107)

Tim LaHaye - The Case for the Imminent Rapture of the Church "In this day of advancing preterism we need to repeatedly mention this aspect of His coming, "in like manner" or physically. One of their weakest points, which are almost too ridiculous to mention, is that Jesus has already come spiritually. He departed physically and you can be sure He will return physically. God's people need to be reassured that when He comes in the air to the earth to set up his kingdom it will be physically." Tim LaHaye, known as "an expert" on Biblical prophecy, has published more than 50 nonfiction books on counseling and theology. He said the war in Iraq is setting the stage for the "rise of Babylon," in which there will be one world, one government, one religion and one commerce in the end time. He said the rapture "is very near, and the glorious coming of Christ to the Earth could be only several years off. "We may expect the Second Coming before we see the final book," he said. "I'm looking forward to the end."

Jason Hommel - "I was one of the loudest voices on the newsgroups speaking about a "Rapture on Feast of Trumpets" this year. I'm sorry. I was wrong."

Richard Noon - PLANETS LINING UP! "5/5/2000: Ice, The Ultimate Disaster,'' predicted the planetary alignment would trigger a chain of events that will cause the Earth's crust to slide and poles to shift. ``It would be a geological Armageddon'

Michael Rood - This day begins with plague, bloodshed and all type of pestilences..."

Marilyn Agee - "the Rapture will be the 20th of June, 2000..."

Melody Mehta - "Phobos, one of Mars moons, will be removed from its orbit and will fall to the Earth..."

Ephraim - "the Rapture in March of the 2000"

Byron Weeks - "President Clinton will declare the martial law between September and October of the 2000... ”[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

 

[PlainWord]

There are striking parallels between the writings of Daniel, John and Matthew with regard to the Great Tribulation and the events surrounding it. When laid out in a chart, it seems clear that they are speaking of the same things. When coupled with the many time related statements in each, it becomes apparent that these events were about to take place in the time of the disciples and not 2,000 years later. Consider the following:

The Sealed Scroll - Coincidence???

Starting from Jesus' words in the Olivett Discourse (Mt. 24, Lk. 21, Mk.13) we can see that the events spoken of refer to the same events in Daniel (Mt. 24:15). Once we have carefully laid out the order of these events in the Olivett Discourse, we can also see that they very closely parallel Jesus' words in Revelation 6. What is interesting is that at the end of Daniel where he asks about the Great Tribulation (Dan. 12:1,6), he is told to seal up his book (12:4,9) because it relates to events at the time of the end.

Note how Revelation 6 opens up - the unsealing of a scroll! Could this be the very scroll Daniel was told to seal? Now, if Daniel is writing about the Great Tribulation (during the time of the end), and Jesus identifies this time with the events of the Olivett Discourse (at the end of the age), and these parallel Revelation 6 - should they not tell the same story? As we see, they do.

Coming Soon

If these things are so, what does it mean when John is told these things are about to take place (Rev. 1:1 and 22:10, 22)? Note that John is told in verse 22 that he is NOT to seal up his book (for the time was near). This is the exact opposite of Daniel's admonition TO seal his book (for the time was apparently still far in the future). Consider this: John wrote Revelation in the 1st Century A.D. If Daniel wrote around 550 B.C. (when "the end" was still far off), and John wrote about the same events less than than 600 years after Daniel (when "the time" was near), how could we still be looking for fulfillment 2,000 years later?

The End - of what?

Daniel was specifically told that "the end" would come when the "power of the holy people [the Jews]" was shattered. The power of the Jews was shattered in 70 A.D. at the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem . . . and it was this very destruction that Jesus was speaking of in the Olivett Discourse (Mt.23:38-24:4).

Matthew records that Jesus said the end would come after the Gospel had been preached in the whole world. It would seem that this could not have happened by 70 A.D. But as Paul shows in Colossians 1:5-6, 23 and Romans 10:18 it had in fact gone into the whole world ("the world" was synonymous with the Roman Empire - see Acts 11:28; 17:6).

"The End" was the end of the Old Covenant. The "end times" (or "last days") were the transition period that lasted about 40 years starting from the time of Christ and extending one generation (Mt. 24:34) to 70 A.D. Just as the Old Covenant was established after a 40 year transition time (from Egypt to the Promised Land), so was the New established in a 40 year transition out of spiritual Egypt (1 Cor. 10:1-6; Gal 4:21-31; Heb. 4:9; Rev. 11:8 & 19).

Conclusion

If these things are so then Daniel, John, and Jesus are referring to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem with regard to the Great Tribulation and the Day of The Lord judgment that the Jews incurred when they rejected Messiah (Mt. 23:36-39). If this is true then, of course, the Great Tribulation is over.

Doug Beaumont - 2000

 

[Nehemiah6]

What a joke and an embarrassment these fools have been to the Church in site of the world.

Same applies to Augustine and his blind followers. That's why I said ignore men and focus on the Word. Obviously you would rather continue to talk about men.

 

[PlainWord]

Same applies to Augustine and his blind followers. That's why I said ignore men and focus on the Word. Obviously you would rather continue to talk about men.

I use the Word all the time. Why do you think I chose the moniker, "Plain Word," LOL?. What issue that I espouse would you like to see Biblical proof?

 

[Nehemiah6]

I use the Word all the time. Why do you think I chose the moniker, "Plain Word," LOL?. What issue that I espouse would you like to see Biblical proof?

OK. In that case give us a DETAILED EXPOSITION of the meaning of John 14:1-3, using the entire Bible, with no reference to any commentaries.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Awahtukee said -

I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I completely agree with what you said above and in fact teach the same thing, i.e. that 1 Thes.4:13-18 is referring to the gathering of the church.

However, what I did say is that the event above i.e. the gathering of the church, is a separate event from when the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

Therefore, if you are saying that these two are the same events or that they take place at the same time, then I disagree with you.

so you agree that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 refers to the resurrection and rapture of the Church, but you don’t agree with me that it happens when the Lord returns?

Im getting the idea that you have never really read the words of this passage very well.

Which is why you seem to be ignoring these words I am quoting from 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

It’s as if you are just reciting what you heard others say, and refuse to simply open your eyes and read for yourself these words of scripture.


[FONT=&quot]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.[/FONT]


Again, this scripture from 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 teaches us the resurrection and rapture occur at the coming of the Lord.


[FONT=&quot]we who are alive [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and remain until the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]coming[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the Lord[/FONT]



Its undeniable

 

[MattG]

Hey did you know when you die, you will go see God?

That's being raptured, you are all gonna be taken one by one, because you're all going to die at random times like myself.

Then you will go see the Lord Jesus Christ, and God; like people who still wait to see the Lord Jesus Christ to return.

It's at a hour and a day that we, and even Jesus Christ doesn't even know, but the Father in heaven does.

This is the way I look at being caught up in the air with the Lord, is when you die, you're gonna go see God.​

 

[Nehemiah6]

Hey did you know when you die, you will go see God?​

​

So what you are saying is that every saint who died was actually raptured? That's one way of dodging the issue.

 

[MattG]

[/CENTER]So what you are saying is that every saint who died was actually raptured? That's one way of dodging the issue.

Naw, I believe that Jesus Christ has already gathered the end-time saints, and his church.

Now it just plain and simply laid out before us to plainly see, that everyone that dies, still goes to See God, even if they were not part of the Age that Jesus Christ was from, and that generation back then.

How wonderfully good is our God? Thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ!

I love having it be so simple.

 

[Locutus]

That's why I said ignore men and focus on the Word. Obviously you would rather continue to talk about men.

You are following in each of those men's footsteps with your modified dispensationalism.

 

[Locutus]

Naw, I believe that Jesus Christ has already gathered the end-time saints

Yes he did Matt.

Within the last hour when John wrote:

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

Only the obstinate refuse to take the above to heart in preference of their own presuppositions.

 

[PlainWord]

OK. In that case give us a DETAILED EXPOSITION of the meaning of John 14:1-3, using the entire Bible, with no reference to any commentaries.

Happy to but let's put the timing in proper context first. It was at the Last Supper and Judas was outed and had left. The supper was over and they sat together and talked. Jesus was sharing this final night before the Cross with the remaining 11. Jesus basically gives a sermon that runs all the way through John 17. So really John Chapters 12-17 cover one evening and night and the whole passage should be read as a whole especially the whole sermon Christ gives. Heavy thoughts were on Jesus' mind, not only for the things He was about to endure, but also for the love of His disciples who would soon be without Him. Jesus wanted to reassure them.

Let's pick up the message in Chapter 13 which begins like this:

Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father.

So, it's clear Jesus is thinking about soon leaving this world and returning to the Father, His "dad." Let's skip ahead.

[SUP]36 [/SUP]Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.” [SUP]37 [/SUP]Peter said to Him, “Lord, why can I not follow You now? I will lay down my life for Your sake.” [SUP]38 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till you have denied Me three times.

14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. [SUP]2 [/SUP]In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And where I go you know, and the way you know.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?” [SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

So, Jesus was not talking about going to the Cross nor was He discussing arising after the Cross. He was talking about going to His Father's House. At that time, none of them would be going with Him to heaven, right? When Jesus rose from the dead and met up with the disciples once again, they didn't go to heaven with Him, did they? In fact, they only saw Him sporadically after His resurrection. All of the disciples remained on Earth after His accession.

Hopefully we are in full agreement up to this point?

So heaven is in focus, and going to be with the Father is in focus. These six chapters, (12-17) were very personal, full of love and Christ's concern for those who have been following Him. Almost all of the text in these chapters deal directly, and personally, to them. There are places where He generalizes and discusses the "world" but not here, not in 14:1-3. This passage is very personal and directly aimed at them. Let's focus on these words:

I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also... No one comes to the Father except through Me.

In reality, what is Jesus really saying here? It's obvious, when He comes again, He will receive them in heaven and through Him, they may come to the Father. Are we still good? This all happens IN HEAVEN.

Now ask yourself, where were the disciples when Christ returns(ed)? From where does He find them? Christ goes on to name their fate:

“These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. [SUP]2 [/SUP]They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.

We know that 10 of the remaining 11 were all martyred prior to 70 AD. Only John remained. So, when Christ returns(ed) He is resurrecting them and receiving them in heaven. None of these 10 would be caught up alive ("raptured"). Correct me if I'm wrong, but your view is that this hasn't happened yet, right? So in your mind it's been nearly 2,000 years that they've been dead waiting for the resurrection. If so, how do you explain this next verse from the same sequence of scripture?

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.”

Is 2,000 years "a little while" before they again see Him?" Now look what He says:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one...[SUP]18 [/SUP]As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

It sure doesn't sound like Christ wants His disciples snatched out of the world does it? Does anyone think we deserve to be snatched away if they didn't and Christ actually prays for them not to be taken away?

There are many problems with this future rapture doctrine. One is the total misunderstanding of what is meant by being "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." The 'clouds' and the 'air' are assumed by many to be those white puffy things we see in the sky. Another mis-conception is the "change" that occurs "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." But this is a longer topic for another time.

 

[PlainWord]

Hey did you know when you die, you will go see God?

That's being raptured, you are all gonna be taken one by one, because you're all going to die at random times like myself.

Then you will go see the Lord Jesus Christ, and God; like people who still wait to see the Lord Jesus Christ to return.

It's at a hour and a day that we, and even Jesus Christ doesn't even know, but the Father in heaven does.

This is the way I look at being caught up in the air with the Lord, is when you die, you're gonna go see God.​

You are very wise for your years!!

 

[Locutus]

I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also... No one comes to the Father except through Me.

In reality, what is Jesus really saying here? It's obvious, when He comes again, He will receive them in heaven and through Him, they may come to the Father. Are we still good? This all happens IN HEAVEN.

If I may add something here PL, the "prepare a place" Jesus spoke of became a reality on his entrance and cleansing of the holy place (Hebrews) - Paul states that we are all seated in the heaven places:

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ahwatukee]

[qsuote]Naw, I believe that Jesus Christ has already gathered the end-time saints, and his church.
[/quote]

The only problem with your theory (and its a big one) is that it would mean that Christ left out gathering the majority of the His church. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Consequently, His church is still in the process of being built. According to your belief, only those who became believers from the onset of the church until the temple was destroyed 37 years later have been gathered, leaving over 1900 years of believers out of His promise to be gathered.

The truth is that, the Lord's promise to gather His church includes all believers in Christ from the beginning of the church until the end, dead and living. So that when the church is completed, the Lord will descend and all of those who have died in Christ up to that point will be resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up (raptured) into the air. Immediately following that, those in Christ who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up in the clouds with the resurrected group to meet the Lord in the air. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be present in one place at the same time, where the Lord will then take the whole group back to the Father's house to those places that he will have prepared for us according to John 14:1-3.

The preterist view (Your view) leaves the majority of the church out of the Lord's promise, where the word of God has the entire church gathered at the same time. Your view leaves no resurrection for those who have died in Christ after the destruction of the temple, nor a changing and a catching up for the rest of the living church, but instead puts the church through God's wrath.

You have no idea what you are talking about and should not be teaching these things.

 

[Ahwatukee]

MattG: Naw, I believe that Jesus Christ has already gathered the end-time saints, and his church.

The only problem with your theory (and its a big one) is that it would mean that Christ left out gathering the majority of the His church. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Consequently, His church is still in the process of being built. According to your belief, only those who became believers from the onset of the church until the temple was destroyed 37 years later have been gathered, leaving over 1900 years of believers out of His promise to be gathered.

The truth is that, the Lord's promise to gather His church includes all believers in Christ from the beginning of the church until the end, dead and living. So that when the church is completed, the Lord will descend and all of those who have died in Christ up to that point will be resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up (raptured) into the air. Immediately following that, those in Christ who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up in the clouds with the resurrected group to meet the Lord in the air. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be present in one place at the same time, where the Lord will then take the whole group back to the Father's house to those places that he will have prepared for us according to John 14:1-3.

The preterist view (Your view) leaves the majority of the church out of the Lord's promise, where the word of God has the entire church gathered at the same time. Your view leaves no resurrection for those who have died in Christ after the destruction of the temple, nor a changing and a catching up for the rest of the living church, but instead puts the church through God's wrath.

You have no idea what you are talking about and should not be teaching these things.

 

[PlainWord]

If I may add something here PL, the "prepare a place" Jesus spoke of became a reality on his entrance and cleansing of the holy place (Hebrews) - Paul states that we are all seated in the heaven places:

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Good point. We are all one in Christ who is one with the Father making us all one together. Our residency is not in this world. This is why the world hates us. If we were of this world, the world would love us because we would be as them. But since we are of heaven, the world hates us. Christ does not take us out of this world because we are His light to the world, but keeps us from the evil one who is AKA "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." This is the same "air" of 1 Thes 4. Hint to Nehemiah and AHW.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hey did you know when you die, you will go see God?

That's being raptured, you are all gonna be taken one by one, because you're all going to die at random times like myself.

Sir! You need to stop teaching these things, because they are false teachings! When a believer in Christ dies, their spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. This IS NOT a resurrection.

The word "anastasis" is defined as "ana = up again and hestemi = to stand, properly to 'stand up again bodily." Therefore, the "resurrection" has to do with the bodies of the dead in Christ "standing up again" just as the Lord stood up again in His body when He resurrected.

To be clear, when the gathering of the church takes place, the Lord will bring with him the spirits of those who will have died in Him from the beginning of the church until that time, and their spirits will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. Regarding those in Christ who are still alive, they will simply be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have resurrected. Below is the definition of the word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection." Pay attention to what is in red and underlined:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising​

Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.

HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the same way that Christ resurrected in the same body that he died in, so also will those who have died in Him stand back up in their bodies, taking on immortal and glorified characteristics.

The body dying and the spirit departing to the Lord is not a resurrection.

Death of a believer = Spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord

Resurrection = The spirit of the believer is reunited with his/her resurrected immortal and glorified body

The resurrection is a group event involving the entire church, not an individual, one at a time event.