The Rapture

[SovereignGrace]

When I see you mock the rapture,I see this being mocked ;



16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.


2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The rapture happens on the last day. Matthew 24:29-31

Not one verse, not in 1 Thess. 4:13-18, 1 Cor. 15:50-58, Rev. 4:1, mentions a tribulation of any sort. Shoot, to take Rev. 4:1 to say it means a rapture of the church is pure eisegesis. There is not one place a pre-trib rapture is true. Only inferences at best.

But Jesus said in Matthew 24, that immediately after the tribulation of those days. That’s post-trib.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why would you say it is scripturally logical that the last trump of I Cor. 15:52 and the last trump of Rev. are not the same?

Simple my friend! For one, the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52 is the blessed hope of the church, the gathering. Where the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments are plagues of wrath.

Second, there is nothing in the context of the scripture surrounding the 7th trumpet that demonstrates or even hints at the church being gathered.

Thirdly, the 7th trumpet takes place after the seven seals and after the first six. Therefore, to put the church as being gathered at the 7th trumpet would put the church through the majority of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer. We cannot be subject to any of God's wrath, because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on every believers behalf, satisfying it completely. It is also a matter of understanding the severity and magnitude of the wrath that is coming as to why the church will be on the earth during that time.

And why do you say that the seals and trump judgments are the wrath of God when Rev calls them tribulation.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is how God carries out that time of tribulation. In fact the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are indeed referred to as wrath as demonstrated below:

6Th Seal (previous seals included)

"And the kings of the earth, and the great ones, and the commanders, and the rich, and the powerful, and every slave and free, hid themselves in the caves, and among the rocks of the mountains. And they say to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

7Th Trumpet (Includes the previous trumpets)

"We give thanks to You, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was; You have taken Your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come

Seven Bowl judgments:

"Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God will be completed"

The words "tribulation" and "plagues" are just different designations describing the wrath of God. The current trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. Once the church has been gathered, what follows will be God's direct, unprecedented wrath in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will be in fulfillment of the long prophesied day of the Lord, also referred to as the hour of trial.

Also, why would you say that the church will be gathered before the first seal when Paul states that the man of sin will be revealed first?

Because it appears to say that, but it doesn't. The on-going problem with interpreting what Paul is saying here, is not discerning the difference between "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him" vs. "the day of the Lord" in verse 1 and 2 respectively. Our being gathered to the Lord takes place first, with the day of the Lord (God's wrath) following our being gathered.

The day of the Lord is always referred as God's wrath throughout the Old and new testament. The previous verses would have the order as being the apostasy, the revealing the man lawlessness, followed by the gathering of the church. But the following verses 5 thru 8 contradict that order.

"Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he will be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and abolish by the majesty of His arrival.

The One, also referred as "He" is holding back (restraining) the full force of sin and the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time. Then the One who is holding him back will continue to do so until he is removed. The only One who could hold back the full force of sin and the man of sin from being revealed could be none other then God in the form of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit indwells all believers. Therefore, when "He" as the restrainer is removed, the church must be removed with Him. Following that will be the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness.

1). The gathering of the church

2). The apostasy

3). Man of lawlessness revealed and the wrath of God

Why do you not just accept what the Scripture states? Seems you put more importance in your logic that what the Scripture states.

No, it is not based on my logic, but on the unity of scripture. If you believe one thing, but another scripture cancels that out, then you need to find another answer. One of the major problems that we have today is that, people just adopt other men's teaching and then defend it while ignoring the other scriptures that derail the belief that they have adopted. They're more concerned about protecting what they've adopted instead of being good Berean's and searching the provided scriptures to see if what that person is saying could be the truth or not.

It's not that the scripture doesn't state it, but rather you're just not seeing it.

I teach anything that I am not sure of based on scripture.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Correction on the last verse: I do not teach anything that I am not sure of based on scripture.

 

[Endoscopy]

I am familair with all 4. The only one I think is anti-biblical completely is the post-millennial view, it is the only one I see zero chance of happening, because the Bible specifically mentions an apostasy before Jesus returns.

The other views are all possible, time will tell! I want to add one more view: The pan-milennialism which means whatever pans out works for me

Aint that the truth...Jah will do what Jah will do.

Just a question to you all ;
What is this thing about "the church" ???

Like... "the church" will be raptured before or mid or post trib ???

Is this the flock of your church ONLY ....from the 35,000 PLUS denominations on earth ??? (stealing GOD'S tithe).

Our Lord will bring them ALL to destruction... as Babylon the great harlot. CITY Churches "eating and drinking and marrying" IN SATANS domain.

Personally, I see so many scriptures speak about the RIGHTEOUS since Abraham.
We are sons of Abraham...IF we are RIGHTEOUS !!!
Then too...WE SEE the meek will inherit the earth.

If the righteous and meek are the "church" then they are on earth.

Yes...our Lord Jesus rules over the whole earth for His Millinial reign WITH those chosen from the earth.
OVER the meek and righteous who inherit the earth.

WHAT IS THIS "CHURCH" raptured to heaven thing ?

The Church is the bride of Christ and is composed of all believers. Simple enough for you? Denomination makes no difference!

 

[Allenbee]

Hello Bogadile,
About this; https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

Yes I agree...as clear as mud for sure !

Now here's the thing;
IF you ask a child from any religion to read Math 24;14-22, and then asked them if they see great tribulation...they will say YES ! Then if you ask them how to survive that...they will say it says "flee to the mountains".

So...NO CHURCH will teach that, BECAUSE they are CITY CHURCHES and rely on the 666 tithe... from enslaved CITY folk.
The last thing in the world they will teach is "flee to the mountains" or the woman "flies to the wilderness".
When questioned they say v14 the good news of the Kingdom is for today and so is the great tribulation, but fleeing the destruction was for 66-70AD only !!!!

From the GOD of ORDER then;

Noah separated...THEN DESTRUCTION.
Lot separated... THEN DESTRUCTION.
66AD...believers separated...THEN DESTRUCTION. (ONLY believers fled NOT all "Those in Judea".
TODAY...believers separate...THEN DESTRUCTION.[h=3]SEE... the prophesied separation TODAY ;[/h][FONT=&quot]2 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah (believers in the lion from the tribe of Judah as at 66AD) and Jerusalem. (Holy land and our Lords HQ)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]2 It shall come to pass in the latter days (end time prophesy).
that the mountain of the house of the Lord
shall be established as the highest of the mountains, (Kingdom on EARTH)
and shall be lifted up above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
3 and many peoples shall come, and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,[a]
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide disputes for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]5 O house of Jacob, (The whole house of Jacob...sons of Abraham).
come, let us walk
in the light of the Lord.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[h=3]Then.... DESTRUCTION; h;v19-21 is Rev 6;6th seal.[/h][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]6 For you have rejected your people,
the house of Jacob,
because they are full of things from the east
and of fortune-tellers like the Philistines,
and they strike hands with the children of foreigners.
7 Their land is filled with silver and gold,
and there is no end to their treasures;
their land is filled with horses,
and there is no end to their chariots.
8 Their land is filled with idols;
they bow down to the work of their hands,
to what their own fingers have made.
9 So man is humbled,
and each one is brought low—
do not forgive them!
10 Enter into the rock
and hide in the dust
from before the terror of the Lord,
and from the splendor of his majesty.
11 The haughty looks of man shall be brought low,
and the lofty pride of men shall be humbled,
and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]12 For the Lord of hosts has a day
against all that is proud and lofty,
against all that is lifted up—and it shall be brought low;
13 against all the cedars of Lebanon,
lofty and lifted up;
and against all the oaks of Bashan;
14 against all the lofty mountains,
and against all the uplifted hills;
15 against every high tower,
and against every fortified wall;
16 against all the ships of Tarshish,
and against all the beautiful craft.
17 And the haughtiness of man shall be humbled,
and the lofty pride of men shall be brought low,
and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols shall utterly pass away.
19 And people shall enter the caves of the rocks
and the holes of the ground,[b]
from before the terror of the Lord,
and from the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to terrify the earth.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]20 In that day mankind will cast away
their idols of silver and their idols of gold,
which they made for themselves to worship,
to the moles and to the bats,
21 to enter the caverns of the rocks
and the clefts of the cliffs,
from before the terror of the Lord,
and from the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to terrify the earth.
22 Stop regarding man
in whose nostrils is breath,
for of what account is he? (Churches...false Christs).
...............................................................................................

And here comes the the powder puff boys;
"Oh no" that's rubbish... as we just going to continue eating and drinking and marrying in satans world and the "church" will be raptured before any nasty stuff happens.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[Ahwatukee]

The rapture happens on the last day. Matthew 24:29-31

Hello SovereignGrace,

It is impossible for the gathering of the church to take place in Matt.24:29-31. And the reasons that I continue to proclaim is that 1). The church cannot go through the time of God's wrath which precedes Matt.24:29-31 which is the event of the Lord returning to the earth to end age. The wrath of God must take place prior to Jesus' return. If you have the church being gathered when Jesus is returning, then it would mean that the living church would have gone through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, which are the wrath of God.

And number 2). Rev.19:14 reveals the church following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses as he returns to the earth to end the age. In order to follow Christ out of heaven, we would have had to already be in heaven. In support of this, we also have Rev.17:14 revealing that the church returns with the Lord referred to as his "called, chosen and faithful followers. This would also be supported by what Jude quoted Enoch as saying:

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

We, the church, will be those called, chosen and faithful followers, following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. We are those Ten thousands of his saints who return to the earth with the Lord to execute judgment.

Not one verse, not in 1 Thess. 4:13-18

You sure about that? Let's see:

The gathering of the church: (1 Thes.4:13-18)

"13But we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those having fallen asleep, so that you should not be grieved, just as also the rest, those having no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with Him those having fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you in the word of the Lord, that we the living, remaining unto the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those having fallen asleep, 16because the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we, the living remaining, will be caught away together with them in the clouds for the meeting of the Lord in the air; and so we will be always with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Followed by the mention of God's wrath: (1 Thes.5:1-3)

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

So first, Paul gives an detail account of the gathering of the church of both dead and living, which is followed by the mention of God's wrath--sudden destruction like a woman having labor pains.

So, why would you say that "not one verse mentions a tribulation of any sort, when 1 Thes.5:1-3 is a continuation of what takes place following the gathering of the church as described in 1 thes.4:13-18?

But Jesus said in Matthew 24, that immediately after the tribulation of those days. That’s post-trib

Your on-going problem is that you don't recognize the gathering of the church as being a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. As long as you continue to see them as the same event your interpretation of end-time events will always be in error.

Matt.24:29-31 has nothing to do with the gathering of the church, but is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and according to Rev.19:14, we return from heaven with Him.

 

[Endoscopy]

Hello Bogadile,
About this; https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

Yes I agree...as clear as mud for sure !

Now here's the thing;
IF you ask a child from any religion to read Math 24;14-22, and then asked them if they see great tribulation...they will say YES ! Then if you ask them how to survive that...they will say it says "flee to the mountains".

So...NO CHURCH will teach that, BECAUSE they are CITY CHURCHES and rely on the 666 tithe... from enslaved CITY folk.
The last thing in the world they will teach is "flee to the mountains" or the woman "flies to the wilderness".
When questioned they say v14 the good news of the Kingdom is for today and so is the great tribulation, but fleeing the destruction was for 66-70AD only !!!!

From the GOD of ORDER then;

Noah separated...THEN DESTRUCTION.
Lot separated... THEN DESTRUCTION.
66AD...believers separated...THEN DESTRUCTION. (ONLY believers fled NOT all "Those in Judea".
TODAY...believers separate...THEN DESTRUCTION.SEE... the prophesied separation TODAY ;

2 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah (believers in the lion from the tribe of Judah as at 66AD) and Jerusalem. (Holy land and our Lords HQ)
2 It shall come to pass in the latter days (end time prophesy).
that the mountain of the house of the Lord
shall be established as the highest of the mountains, (Kingdom on EARTH)
and shall be lifted up above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
3 and many peoples shall come, and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,[a]
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide disputes for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore.

5 O house of Jacob, (The whole house of Jacob...sons of Abraham).
come, let us walk
in the light of the Lord.

Then.... DESTRUCTION; h;v19-21 is Rev 6;6th seal.

6 For you have rejected your people,
the house of Jacob,
because they are full of things from the east
and of fortune-tellers like the Philistines,
and they strike hands with the children of foreigners.
7 Their land is filled with silver and gold,
and there is no end to their treasures;
their land is filled with horses,
and there is no end to their chariots.
8 Their land is filled with idols;
they bow down to the work of their hands,
to what their own fingers have made.
9 So man is humbled,
and each one is brought low—
do not forgive them!
10 Enter into the rock
and hide in the dust
from before the terror of the Lord,
and from the splendor of his majesty.
11 The haughty looks of man shall be brought low,
and the lofty pride of men shall be humbled,
and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.

12 For the Lord of hosts has a day
against all that is proud and lofty,
against all that is lifted up—and it shall be brought low;
13 against all the cedars of Lebanon,
lofty and lifted up;
and against all the oaks of Bashan;
14 against all the lofty mountains,
and against all the uplifted hills;
15 against every high tower,
and against every fortified wall;
16 against all the ships of Tarshish,
and against all the beautiful craft.
17 And the haughtiness of man shall be humbled,
and the lofty pride of men shall be brought low,
and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols shall utterly pass away.
19 And people shall enter the caves of the rocks
and the holes of the ground,[b]
from before the terror of the Lord,
and from the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to terrify the earth.

20 In that day mankind will cast away
their idols of silver and their idols of gold,
which they made for themselves to worship,
to the moles and to the bats,
21 to enter the caverns of the rocks
and the clefts of the cliffs,
from before the terror of the Lord,
and from the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to terrify the earth.
22 Stop regarding man
in whose nostrils is breath,
for of what account is he? (Churches...false Christs).
...............................................................................................

And here comes the the powder puff boys;
"Oh no" that's rubbish... as we just going to continue eating and drinking and marrying in satans world and the "church" will be raptured before any nasty stuff happens.

And which eschatological view of Revelation does this fit into. All end times prophecies need to fit together. That jigsaw puzzle putting them together correctly is a mind bender. Have fun working on that puzzle. Been there done that. Looking at just one like this makes it seem easy. Putting in with ALL end times prophecies makes it difficult. To come up with a doctrine all verses in context on a particular issue have to be studied.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hello SovereignGrace,

It is impossible for the gathering of the church to take place in Matt.24:29-31. And the reasons that I continue to proclaim is that 1). The church cannot go through the time of God's wrath which precedes Matt.24:29-31 which is the event of the Lord returning to the earth to end age. The wrath of God must take place prior to Jesus' return. If you have the church being gathered when Jesus is returning, then it would mean that the living church would have gone through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, which are the wrath of God.

And number 2). Rev.19:14 reveals the church following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses as he returns to the earth to end the age. In order to follow Christ out of heaven, we would have had to already be in heaven. In support of this, we also have Rev.17:14 revealing that the church returns with the Lord referred to as his "called, chosen and faithful followers. This would also be supported by what Jude quoted Enoch as saying:

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

We, the church, will be those called, chosen and faithful followers, following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. We are those Ten thousands of his saints who return to the earth with the Lord to execute judgment.



You sure about that? Let's see:

The gathering of the church: (1 Thes.4:13-18)

"13But we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those having fallen asleep, so that you should not be grieved, just as also the rest, those having no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with Him those having fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you in the word of the Lord, that we the living, remaining unto the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those having fallen asleep, 16because the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we, the living remaining, will be caught away together with them in the clouds for the meeting of the Lord in the air; and so we will be always with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Followed by the mention of God's wrath: (1 Thes.5:1-3)

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

So first, Paul gives an detail account of the gathering of the church of both dead and living, which is followed by the mention of God's wrath--sudden destruction like a woman having labor pains.

So, why would you say that "not one verse mentions a tribulation of any sort, when 1 Thes.5:1-3 is a continuation of what takes place following the gathering of the church as described in 1 thes.4:13-18?



Your on-going problem is that you don't recognize the gathering of the church as being a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. As long as you continue to see them as the same event your interpretation of end-time events will always be in error.

Matt.24:29-31 has nothing to do with the gathering of the church, but is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and according to Rev.19:14, we return from heaven with Him.

1 Thess. 4:13-18 makes no mentioning of the tribulation, whether it be pre-, mid-, or post-. 1 Cor. 15:50-58 mentions the glorification of our bodies when He returns, w/o nary a mentioning of the tribulation, whether it be pre-, mid-, or post-. Then in Rev. 4:1, it makes no mentioning of a rapturing of the church when John is called up to see what must happen thereafter. That is eisegesis if even I read it.

I appreciate this thorough post, but I believe you are thoroughly wrong.

 

[Ahwatukee]

1 Thess. 4:13-18 makes no mentioning of the tribulation,

So, you ignored the proof that I gave you. Immediately after Paul outlines the gathering of the church, he then speaks about the tribulation referred to as the "sudden destruction" that comes upon them like a woman in birth pains. If you can't make the connection, then continue believing what you will. I'm just trying to give you the benefit of years of study on end-time events.

Below Paul mentions the Tribulation/wrath of God/day of the Lord/hour of trial, all referring to the same time of wrath, which follows the gathering of the church outlined in 1 Thes.4:13-18:

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Please pay attention to mentioning of "the day of the Lord" and the destruction that will come upon them suddenly which they will not escape. This is the tribulation that is being spoken of, the time of God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 = The gathering of the church

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 = Reference to the God's wrath as sudden destruction, which follows the gathering of church.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, you ignored the proof that I gave you. Immediately after Paul outlines the gathering of the church, he then speaks about the tribulation referred to as the "sudden destruction" that comes upon them like a woman in birth pains. If you can't make the connection, then continue believing what you will. I'm just trying to give you the benefit of years of study on end-time events.

Below Paul mentions the Tribulation/wrath of God/day of the Lord/hour of trial, all referring to the same time of wrath, which follows the gathering of the church outlined in 1 Thes.4:13-18:

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Please pay attention to mentioning of "the day of the Lord" and the destruction that will come upon them suddenly which they will not escape. This is the tribulation that is being spoken of, the time of God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 = The gathering of the church

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 = Reference to the God's wrath as sudden destruction, which follows the gathering of church.

Here's where I find your stance odd.

It is impossible for the gathering of the church to take place in Matt.24:29-31.

It says He will come and His angels will gather His elect from the four winds. So, if this is not the ekklesia, then He is coming twice? Once for the church and once again for the other elect? That sounds odd.

In fact, this doctrine was not taught until the mid-1830'w when JND got whiff of it from that MacDonald girl's dream and then CIS, Ice, Chafer, et al pushed it.

Pre-millennialism has been taught by the ECF, but not the dispensationial pre-millennialism.

 

[Jackson123]

Here's where I find your stance odd.



It says He will come and His angels will gather His elect from the four winds. So, if this is not the ekklesia, then He is coming twice? Once for the church and once again for the other elect? That sounds odd.

In fact, this doctrine was not taught until the mid-1830'w when JND got whiff of it from that MacDonald girl's dream and then CIS, Ice, Chafer, et al pushed it.

Pre-millennialism has been taught by the ECF, but not the dispensationial pre-millennialism.

yep I never read there is third coming

 

[TMS]

Hello SovereignGrace,

It is impossible for the gathering of the church to take place in Matt.24:29-31. And the reasons that I continue to proclaim is that 1). The church cannot go through the time of God's wrath which precedes Matt.24:29-31 which is the event of the Lord returning to the earth to end age. The wrath of God must take place prior to Jesus' return. If you have the church being gathered when Jesus is returning, then it would mean that the living church would have gone through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, which are the wrath of God.

.

Why can't the people of God go through the wrath of God on Earth?
It has happened many times in the past and can happen again.
Noah went through the wrath of God safely protected in the ark. We can live in that time protected by God like Daniel when Babylon destroyed the temple the first time, and we can survive like those that went into the mountains in 66 ad when Titus destroyed the temple the second time. I'm sure God has a plan for His people for the final days. This requires faith and courage. Do you think God is smart enough and powerful enough to work out a way to deliver His people?

 

[Jackson123]

Why can't the people of God go through the wrath of God on Earth?
It has happened many times in the past and can happen again.
Noah went through the wrath of God safely protected in the ark. We can live in that time protected by God like Daniel when Babylon destroyed the temple the first time, and we can survive like those that went into the mountains in 66 ad when Titus destroyed the temple the second time. I'm sure God has a plan for His people for the final days. This requires faith and courage. Do you think God is smart enough and powerful enough to work out a way to deliver His people?

yep, Israel was protected in the agypt 10 plagues

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why can't the people of God go through the wrath of God on Earth?
It has happened many times in the past and can happen again.
Noah went through the wrath of God safely protected in the ark. We can live in that time protected by God like Daniel when Babylon destroyed the temple the first time, and we can survive like those that went into the mountains in 66 ad when Titus destroyed the temple the second time. I'm sure God has a plan for His people for the final days. This requires faith and courage. Do you think God is smart enough and powerful enough to work out a way to deliver His people?

And if Matthew 24:29-31 does not refer to the ekklesia, then the Christ is on some sort of yo-yo cloud coming multiple times gathering His elect.

Dispy doctrine has caused many an unnecessary headache in our churches.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why can't the people of God go through the wrath of God on Earth?
It has happened many times in the past and can happen again.
Noah went through the wrath of God safely protected in the ark. We can live in that time protected by God like Daniel when Babylon destroyed the temple the first time, and we can survive like those that went into the mountains in 66 ad when Titus destroyed the temple the second time. I'm sure God has a plan for His people for the final days. This requires faith and courage. Do you think God is smart enough and powerful enough to work out a way to deliver His people?

I think Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18 describe the same event. Then angel said He was coming again, not again, and again...

 

[TMS]

And if Matthew 24:29-31 does not refer to the ekklesia, then the Christ is on some sort of yo-yo cloud coming multiple times gathering His elect.

Dispy doctrine has caused many an unnecessary headache in our churches.

I'm not sure what you mean by ekklesia, but i see no contradiction in these verses.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There shall be a great tribulation than the Lord will come and gather the saved.
One coming after the time of trouble. not two or three. After the 1000 years He will come again.

 

[Hizikyah]

Isaiah 24:1-6, "See, יהוה is making the earth empty and making it waste, and shall overturn its surface, and shall scatter abroad its inhabitants. 2 And it shall be – as with the people so with the priest, as with the servant so with his master, as with the female servant so with her mistress, as with the buyer so with the seller, as with the lender so with the borrower, as with the creditor so with the debtor; 3 the earth is completely emptied and utterly plundered, for יהוה has spoken this word. 4 The earth shall mourn and wither, the world shall languish and wither, the haughty people of the earth shall languish. 5 For the earth has been defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the Torah, changed the law, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore a curse shall consume the earth, and those who dwell in it be punished. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth shall be burned, and few men shall be left.”

Matt 24:21-2, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

​

Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and... He shall reign forever and ever!

Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven messengers who stand before Yah, and to them were given seven trumpets."


Revelation 5:5-6, “And one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. See, the Lion of the tribe of Yehuḏah, the Root of Dawiḏ, overcame to open the scroll and to loosen its seven seals.” And I looked and saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing, as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of Yah sent out into all the earth.”


Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”





1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, “Now, brothers, we do not wish you to be ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you be sad as others who have no expectation. For if we believe that יהושע died and rose again, so also Yah shall bring with Him those who sleep in יהושע. For this we say to you by the word of the Master, that we, the living who are left over at the coming of the Master shall in no way go before those who are asleep. Because the Master Himself shall come down from heaven with a shout, with the voice of a chief messenger, and with the trumpet of Yah, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first. Then we, the living who are left over, shall be caught away together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air – and so we shall always be with the Master. So, then, encourage one another with these words."


1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”


Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm not sure what you mean by ekklesia, but i see no contradiction in these verses.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There shall be a great tribulation than the Lord will come and gather the saved.
One coming after the time of trouble. not two or three. After the 1000 years He will come again.

The word ekklesia is Greek for 'church'. The dispensationilaists love to say that the church and Israel are two separate entities. If so, then you have a Head with two bodies, or two heads on two bodies. Either way, those notions are foreign to the bible.

There is only one ekklesia, which means 'called out ones', and these called out ones are the body of the Christ, that have OT and NT believers comprising that body, with the Christ being the Head of that one body.

One definition of ekklesia is "the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth."

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm not sure what you mean by ekklesia, but i see no contradiction in these verses.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There shall be a great tribulation than the Lord will come and gather the saved.
One coming after the time of trouble. not two or three. After the 1000 years He will come again.

Oh, I agree that Matthew 24:29-31 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 are the same event. Others? Welllll......

 

[Hizikyah]

The word ekklesia is Greek for 'church'. The dispensationilaists love to say that the church and Israel are two separate entities. If so, then you have a Head with two bodies, or two heads on two bodies. Either way, those notions are foreign to the bible.

There is only one ekklesia, which means 'called out ones', and these called out ones are the body of the Christ, that have OT and NT believers comprising that body, with the Christ being the Head of that one body.

One definition of ekklesia is "the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth."

1 Corinthians 12:12-18, "For just as the body is a unity, but yet has many members; and though all its members are many, they are one body: so it is with Messiah. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Yahdaim or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit; For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot should say: Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear should say: Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the sense of smelling? But now YHWH has set the members, each one of them in the body, as it has pleased Him."


Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though YHWH's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Yisra’yl who belongs to Yisra’yl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are YHWH's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Galatians 3:27-29, “For as many of you as were immersed into Messiah have put on Messiah. There is not Yehuḏi nor Greek, there is not slave nor free, there is not male and female, for you are all one in Messiah [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And if you are of Messiah, then you are seed of Aḇraham, and heirs according to promise.”[/FONT]