The Rapture
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heartofdavid
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heartofdavid
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When I see you mock the rapture,I see this being mocked ;
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
DiscipleDave askedlease explain to me, what YOU think the last Trump sounding actually means in 1 Cor 15:52. You say it is not the last Trumpet of the series of Trumpets given in Revelation, then surely you do know what LAST trump 1 Cor 15:52 is referring. Can't wait to hear your interpretation of which last Trumpet sounding that verse is referring to.
Rev 12 has absolutely nothing to do with trumpets, first, last or otherwise. Try to understand Rev 11 verses 15 through 19 is a conversation concerning specifically about the 7th Trumpet sounding. IT ends at verse 19. The Next Chapter starts an entirely DIFFERENT event. NOTHING to do with the Trumpets at all. And if you think Rev Chapter 12 does have something to do with the Trumpets, then please reveal what makes you think that?
Rev 12 in fact has nothing whatsoever mentioned about trumpets in the context of Rev.12, but for some reason you associate Rev 12 as having something to do with trumpets? What are you talking about. What makes you think Rev 12 has anything to do with the topic at hand? We are talking about the last trumpet sounding. You bring up Rev 12 which absolutely has nothing to do with Trumpets at all. You say because Church is not mentioned in Rev 12, that must mean the Church is Gone before Rev 12, and what was prior Chapter discussing? The 7th trumpet. lol. The opinion that because Church is not mentioned in Chapter 12 means the Church is gone prior to Chapter 12, and what chapter is prior to Chapter 12? Chapter 11 which discusses the 7th Trumpet. That opinion actually helps what i am saying not what you are saying. It is just an opinion though. The logic used to say and teach things because something is not mentioned in this or that chapter is greatly flawed. Just because Chapter 12 does not mention Church doesn't give you or anyone else the authority to say and teach "That means the Church is Gone" This kind of interpreting satan uses to his benefit a great deal. Believe what Scriptures SAYS, don't believe what they DON'T SAY. To me that is just stupid, <---- my opinion, not from God.
Firstly, how have i ignored the fact that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet is well into God's wrath, my Timeline which you have seen clearly indicates the 7th Trumpet being in the Middle of God's wrath, 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation Period, then how do you now claim that i ignore the fact that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet is well into God's wrath, when i have clearly indicated that it was?
That is True, i ignore all interpretation by men, i believe what God told me, which is NOT an interpretation by any man, myself included, but comes from God. So then if it appears to you that i am ignoring the method to interpret Scriptures based on what is NOT there, then you are correct, because i know all interpretations by men is not to be done. Interpretation belong to God, and God will reveal what God reveals to whom He will reveal it. Not my fault if you do not believe God reveals His Secrets to His servants
Pro_3:32 For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous.
Dan_2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
Amo_3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
WHO teaches KNOWLEDGE? God teaches a person knowledge, or does that person teach himself knowledge? precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little is using Scriptures to back up what God teaches a person. Any yahoo can try to interpret Scriptures, a thing which a person is not to do. God reveals secrets to whom He will reveal them. Interpretations come from God, NOT from the minds of humans. Who told you, that YOU could interpret the Word of God? WHO gave you the Authority to say this verse means that, or this verse means this? God interprets His Own Word, and He does that by telling his servants what His Word means. Men should NEVER interpret the Word of God, as if they actually though it was in man to do so. True interpretations come from God and not from men.
Great error, really? you attach the last Trumpet of I Cor to NOTHING, you have not told me what it is the last trump of? You have given no referrence to what last Trump it could even be referring too? Does Scriptures interpret Scriptures or not? I Cor 15:52 refers to a last Trump, which indicates a series of trumpets, that being the last one sounding. i tell you that I Cor 15:52 is referring to the last Trumpet in the series of Trumpets being blown in Revelation, and you say that is a great error when you give no reference at all to what trumpet I Cor 15:52 is referring to. Seriously?
Here is what we know for a fact:
I Cor 15:52 is talking about a last Trumpet sounding. That means there is other Trumpet sounding prior to the last one being sounded, correct. That means I Cor 15:52 is specifically referring to a series of Trumpets being sounded. Now how many examples in the Scriptures do we have, from the time of Jesus till the end, do we have concerning a series of Trumpets? Can you think of any examples in Scriptures with a series of Trumpets being sounded? Any? Oh there is ONLY ONE example in Scriptures from the time I Cor 15:52 was written that plainly lists a series of Trumpets being blown. Doesn't Scriptures interpret Scriptures? We have in I Cor 15:52 a verse talking about the Last Trumpet being Sounded, and behold we have an example in Scriptures a series of Trumpets being blown, that is in Revelation. So you think i am wrong in saying the Last Trumpet sounding in I Cor 15:52 is referring to the ONLY example we have in Revelation of a series of Trumpets being blown is indeed referring to the same last trumpet being blown in Revelation?
lol, you say you gave Scriptural truths previously mentioned, and there is not one Scripture given, i looked twice. So you gave no Scriptual truths, you gave what YOU think is Truth, NOT Scriptural Proof.
Lets see, should i believe YOU, which can't tell me what I Cor 15:52 Last Trumpet sounding is referring to in Scriptures, So you don't know what it actually is the Last Trumpet of. You have no ideal which series of Trumpets I Cor 15:52 could possibly be referring to, So believe you what it means, or should i continue to believe What God told me concerning the Last Trumpet sounding? You can't tell me what series of Trumpets I Cor 15:52 is actually referring to, you don't know what series of Trumpets it is referring to, it has not been revealed to you what the Last Trumpet of I Cor 15:52 means, and i am suppose to believe you when you say "It is NOT the last Trumpet sounding in the ONLY series of Trumpets being sounded in Revelation" Sorry, can't believe someone who bases all their knowledge on their own interpretations of Scriptures, When i have learned the Truth from the source, God. Not my fault if you don't believe God speaks to people.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
lol. i seriously laughed out loud. Tell me, are you a man? Simple Question. Are you a man? You say that no man has taught you, But, your a man. So a man did teach you. If YOU, which is a man, taught your own self, then a man did teach you. lol.
You don't believe God who speaks to man either. People are to study the Word of God, They are NOT to interpret it, this is something that you have failed to learn in the very Word you say you study. Interpretations belong to God says the Word of God, yet you think you can interpret the Word of God, you say you do not believe the teachings of men, yet you believe your own teaching, yes? Are you a man? If then you believe your own teaching which comes from your own mind, your own thinking, your own understanding, and you are man, how are you not believing a man?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Originally Posted by DiscipleDave
The Rapture happens at the 7th Trumpet sounding.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Mystery of God is finished, this happens at the 7th Trumpet.
The Prophets were told by God about the 7th Trumpet, the Rapture, the Return of Jesus Christ.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
When do the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of Jesus Christ? When? At the 7th Trumpet.
When does Jesus Christ start to REIGN? At the 7th Trumpet.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
WHEN is the time of the dead Judged? At the 7th Trumpet. The time of the dead are Judged, Judgment Day. Those who are dead in Christ, will at this time rise to meet Jesus and reign with Him forever. Those who are dead will be judged and remain left behind, remain dead until the end of the 1,000 year Reign of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment.
WHEN are the SAINTS given rewards? At the 7th Trumpet.
WHEN are the Prophets given their rewards? At the 7th Trumpet.
WHEN is Jesus going to DESTROY those who destroy the Earth? At the beginning of the 7th Trumpet.
1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
When do the dead in Christ raise incorruptible? When are the Saints Changed in a twinkling of an eye? When? The last Trumpet sounding. WOW, clear as can be when the Rapture will happen, but this generation believes lies from satan and do not believe this verse is referring to 7th Trumpet of Revelations. And when i ask these same people then to which last trumpet sounding is this verse talking about, they have NOTHING to answer back. Let them be they are deceived and devoid of the TRUTH.
Now tell me, WHEN is the Temple in Heaven opened? At the 7th Trumpet.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Now what happens when the Temple of God is opened in Heaven at the 7th TRUMPET?
Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
When according to Scriptures is the Temple opened? the 7th Trumpet.
Who comes out of that Temple when it is Opened? The 7 Angels with the 7 last plagues.
Anyone who believes contrary to what is written above, believes contrary to what Scriptures teaches.
Anyone who does not believe what is written above, does not believe God who told me these things will happen.
7 seals / 7 trumpets / RAPTURE / 7 vials.
Pre-trib is a lie.
Post-trib is a lie.
ONLY Mid-trib lines up with ALL Scriptures.
Pre-trib does not line up with Scriptures
Post-trib does not line up with Scriptures.
All those who are diehard fans of pretrib, will most likely be those who will fall away, when they see the Earth being destroyed by God and Jesus had not Come yet. For 3 1/2 years the Planet will suffer great distress as was never seen before, and the Church will go through 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period, this is called the Hour of Temptation, and i tell you the TRUTH, Many and i say Many will fall away from the Faith because Jesus did not come BEFORE all the Tribulation began as they have falsely believed their whole entire lives.
But here is Good News, God sent me to this generation to tell you the Truth, so that you are not ignorant of it. i have done what God has instructed me to do, i have told you what He has told me concerning this matter, if you choose to remain ignorant and believe the false doctrines, believe what men tell you is the truth, then my hands our clean, i have told you the Truth and you rejected it. Again, my hands are clean.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Could you tell me what i have said that makes you think i have put myself on a throne?
Amo_3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
So then if God does what His Scriptures says He will do and He has revealed to me what is to come in the future, how is that putting myself on a throne? To desire to be put on a throne is to desire to be worshiped, have i said anything at all that would indicate that i desire to be worshiped? Have i said anything that reveals my desires at all? You would do well not to falsely accuse others, God is not pleases with such things.
You do error in thinking that i have a direct line into Heaven, would it not have been better to merely ask me if i do, then to assume that i still do? There are many things that i do not know, What i know is what He wanted to reveal to me to teach. He did not teach me all things, He told me enough. i have many more question lined up for Him, if He ever decides to speak to me again. i have not had a conversation with Him since 1994. 1994 was the last time He spoke to me audibly. Long story, he told me something that He wanted me to do, and i didn't want to do it. He told me to stop obeying His enemy, stop sinning. i ran from God at that time, and lived like the devil. He has not spoken to me since, even though now i live as He told me. i do all things to please Jesus Christ. He has not spoken to me yet. i am hopeful though. Anyways He did not reveal to me ALL knowledge, He only revealed to me what He wanted me to teach to this generation, so they have no cloak for their ignorance. i tell you the TRUTH, which God told me, if you don't believe, well my hands are clean, and you won't be able to please ignorance, that you didn't know, when i have told you what He has told me.
You act as if my interpretations are flawed because i am unaware of this game changer you are talking about. Don't care. What i teach is what He has told me and revealed to me, what i teach is what i have learned from God, from Angels, from visions, and from dreams. i don't teach anything that is from me, my own thinking, my own interpretations. If i do, i clearly will say this is from me, not from God. What i teach is what God told me. i don't care what YOU think is a game changer or not, i merely teach what i know is TRUTH.
Never said otherwise.
Everyone has a right to their own opinions. But what God told me is the 7th Trumpet sounding He is going to return to the Earth in the New City Jerusalem. When He gets here, the 7 vials will be poured out on the Earth for the next 3 1/2 years AFTER He gets Here in the Holy City Jerusalem. If you do not believe what God told me, what is that to me?
Scriptures please. Leave your opinions, your interpretations and the such elsewhere. Show relevant Scriptures that supports Rapture is pre-trib, pre judgement, pre Jacobs trouble.
All of which YOU interpret to mean prejudgment examples.
Debunked? Not by Scriptures, Maybe you think so, but unless you have Scriptures to back it up, you have debunked nothing.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Originally Posted by DiscipleDave
Zechariah , a Prophet of the Old Testament, before Jesus walked in the flesh on Earth, mentions Jesus Christ blowing a trumpet in the FUTURE. So then it would have been well known to those in Jesus day of that verse where the Lord blows the Trumpet.
Zec_9:14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
i will read what you think it is all about, but it will not change my mind to believe something other than what God has told me.
Sorry, you are in error.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (When is this MYSTERY Finished? At the 7th Trumpet sounding in Revelations.
Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
You say the last TRUMP of I Cor is the Resurrection. Yet there is not one verse that says there was a Trumpet sounding during that time? And if I Cor says it is the LAST Trump sounding, that would indicate there is a series of Trumpet sounding, so as there to be a LAST ONE SOUNDING. Again, no mention of this at the Resurrection. Tell me at the Resurrection who was made immortal? It plainly says that at the last Trump sounding the mortal will put on immortality. Who is immortal today? Who then, according to you, has put on immortality TODAY? What? Nobody today is immortal. So then why does Scriptures teach at the last trump they will put on immortality? If it was accomplished at His Resurrection, then there would be people today that are immortal, and no longer corruption. You do error in believing that nonsense. At the resurrection of Jesus Christ, there was no Trump Sounding. There were NO series of Trumpets being blown, NOBODY was made incorruptible, nobody was made immortal, NOBODY in a twinkling of eye was CHANGED instantly. Matters of fact right after the Resurrection all His followers fled in fear, and hid themselves like cowards, and were NOT Changed.
Believe Scriptures, don't believe the lies of satan who teaches you things contrary to the very Scriptures you say you believe.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Yes, and?
Yes. and?
yes, a 7th angel, is the 7th Angel. Just as the 3rd angel is the 3rd angel.
Not so. Scriptures plainly teach at the 7th Trumpet sounded, the Temple in Heaven is opened. Then it describes 7 angels coming out of that temple with the 7 last plagues. 7th Trumpet blows - Temple opened in Heaven - 7 angels comes out of that temple with 7 last plagues.
No, i do not understand what YOU think and how it works. i only know what WILL happen.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Using your same logic in how you interpret this verse explain to me the following verse?
Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
What then? Can a person look upon a MAN to lust after him does not commit adultery?
Can a person look upon a child to lust after them does not commit adultery?
Can a person look upon the same sex to lust after them does not commit adultery?
Can a person look upon a beast to lust after it does not commit adultery?
OR does woman above mean men, children, beasts, and same sex?
Your assumption, based on YOUR OWN STUDIES is flawed.
Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Using your same logic that if it says woman, it can't possibly mean something other than a woman. That would mean Anyone who lusts after MEN, children, or beasts does NOT commit adultery, because the above verse says "woman" Therefore according to your own logic in the way you interpret, it could ONLY mean women? Right? Or does the word Woman above apply to men as well?
Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Your interpretation of this verse implies that women can't possibly mean men also. Therefore YOU have deduced it is a male child. Tell me something, can a woman be defiled by a woman? Yes or no? How are you not ASSUMING that the word "THEY" is ONLY referring to men?
The 144,000 are children that make it through the Tribulation Period, This is what God told me when talking about that topic, and it is also something that i seen in a dream/vision (i know not which). 144,000 are sealed in their foreheads. YOU say contrary to Scriptures, YOU say it is one male child. Believe Scriptures not YOUR OWN STUDIES. Scriptures plainly teach that 12,000 from each tribe are sealed. Every time it refers to the 144,000 it is plural. they are virgin(s). You do error in YOUR interpretation of the 144,000 PEOPLE are are sealed in their forehead(s).
If a person believes as you do, they believe contrary to the Word of God.
You teach, the 144,000 are NOT 144,000 people, but is a male child. Contrary to sound doctrine.
Scriptures teach, they are people chosen by God, 12,000 from each Tribe, and even gives the names of Each Tribe that 12,000 people are chose from. These are sealed with a seal of God in their foreheads. THEY (plural) are virgins (plural). THEY (plural) have not had sexual relations with another.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Tell me. Are there 144,000 sealed of all the Tribes of Israel or NO? What do YOU say? Scriptures plainly teaches 144,000 are sealed, YOU teach something contrary to that, don't you?
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Are 12,000 sealed from the Tribe of Juda? This verse plainly says and teaches that 12,000 are sealed from the Tribe of Juda. What do YOU say, is that TRUE or not. Are 12,000 people sealed from the Tribe of Juda or not? Should i believe Scriptures or YOU?
You do greatly error in interpreting the Scriptures as YOU see fit. ignoring plain Scriptures because they do not line up with YOUR own interpretations. And YOU double error in teaching others YOUR false interpretations that don't even line up with the Holy inspired Scriptures. If Scriptures teach that 144,000 people are sealed, then i assure you 144,000 people are sealed. If Scriptures plainly teach 12,000 are chosen from each Tribe, then i assure you 12,000 people from each of the Tribes are chosen and sealed. People believe Scriptures NOT what men teach. And Ahwatukee is a man.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
First of all, you have created a terrible comparison in order to discredit what I posted. And second, it is not my assumption at all, but is exactly what the scripture says.
By the scripture stating that this group of 144,000 did not defile themselves with women, it demonstrates that they are all males, ergo, male child. I can't help it if you can't put two and two together. As far as your list above goes, these 144,000 males did not sin in any of those ways.
You have misquoted me above. I have always said that the 144,000 are 144,000 individuals that come out of the twelve tribes of Israel who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. The "Male Child" is a collect name for the entire group. Remember all of the demons that possessed the man of Gadara? When Jesus asked him his name he said his name was "Legion" which was a collective name for all of those demons. So, why is it so difficult for you to understand that the Male child is a collective name for the 144,000?
You need to pay better attention to what you read Dave. I am not basing the male child as being all males by the word "THEY." I am basing it on the fact that the verse states that "they did not defile themselves with women," which demonstrates that they are all males.
So to recap, the 144,000 are made up of 144,000 individuals that come out of the twelve tribes of Israel, twelve thousand from each tribe.
The moniker of "Male Child" is a collective name representing the entire 144,000, who are identified as being those who did not defile themselves with women, making them all males.
And the winner is Disciple Dave, as Ahwatukee's trumpet is out of kee !!!
Dave please come to my midtrib thread... "The kingdom of God on earth and the rapture to heaven".
These pretrib believers are a waste of precious time.
We are all still learning, so I would appreciate your input.
Dave please come to my midtrib thread... "The kingdom of God on earth and the rapture to heaven".
These pretrib believers are a waste of precious time.
We are all still learning, so I would appreciate your input.
First, what does "out of kee" mean? and second, Our disagreement was not about trumpets, but about the 144,000. But, if you are referring to the 7th trumpet of the seven trumpet judgments, as I stated before and which is scripturally logical, the 7th trumpet cannot be synonymous with the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52 and that because it would put the church through the seals and the trumpet judgments, which is the wrath of God and which believers are not appointed to suffer.
Dave has his chronological orders messed up, for in his graph he even has the new Jerusalem coming down in the middle of the seven year period, which is when Satan and his angels are cast to the earth and the abomination is set up and which also initiates the great tribulation period. Yet scripture demonstrates that the new Jerusalem doesn't come down until after this current heaven and earth have passed away and the new heaven and new earth are created.
As far as Disciple Dave being the winner, I am not in a race with him or anyone. I am simply zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word and so I contend for the truth when I see false teachings. However, if you want to believe in what Dave is teaching, that the Lord is going to punish His church with the unrighteous, then you are free to do so. Regarding this, I personally believe that the Lord will keep His promise to gather His church prior to His wrath. And if you think that the Lord is going to leave His church here on the earth during His wrath, then you have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath, which is coming and will affect the whole entire world.
I know that the Lord is coming to gather his church prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.
E
Ellsworth1943
Guest
You make a couple of statements that I must question.
Why would you say it is scripturally logical that the last trump of I Cor. 15:52 and the last trump of Rev. are not the same?
Does not last mean last?
And why do you say that the seals and trump judgments are the wrath of God when Rev calls them tribulation.
Also, why would you say that the church will be gathered before the first seal when Paul states that the man of sin will be revealed first?
Why do you not just accept what the Scripture states? Seems you put more importance in your logic that what the Scripture states.
Good work Ellsworth.
Could you please tell me what these pretrib believers...actually believe, as end time prophesy unfolds !!!
I mean, if all these ones disappear to heaven, will that not be a sure sign that the Lord is active and here ?
Of course it would... Or are they going to rapture themselves ?
So then IF there is such a thing as a pretrib rapture, then the SIGN of our lord's presence is expected...right !
Now scripture says... no one knows when He comes... right !
If there is a pretrib rapture then no way can our Lord come as a "thief in the night".
So those scriptures must be WRONG then ...according to "them" !!!
These dreamers rewrite the Bible to suit their madness.
If there ever was a belief to "tickel the ears"... its the pretrib rapture lie.
If there ever was a great deception... the pretrib rapture is it.
Could you please tell me what these pretrib believers...actually believe, as end time prophesy unfolds !!!
I mean, if all these ones disappear to heaven, will that not be a sure sign that the Lord is active and here ?
Of course it would... Or are they going to rapture themselves ?
So then IF there is such a thing as a pretrib rapture, then the SIGN of our lord's presence is expected...right !
Now scripture says... no one knows when He comes... right !
If there is a pretrib rapture then no way can our Lord come as a "thief in the night".
So those scriptures must be WRONG then ...according to "them" !!!
These dreamers rewrite the Bible to suit their madness.
If there ever was a belief to "tickel the ears"... its the pretrib rapture lie.
If there ever was a great deception... the pretrib rapture is it.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."
Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other." [/FONT]
Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other." [/FONT]
The rapture occurs the same day Jesus returns in my opinion. Thats pretty simple. The pre-trib rapture requires lots of charts and complicated explanation of what isnt there to explain what is:
Luke 17:29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
some good info here, Im looking for the blessed hope that's the appearing of our LORD JESUS and this happens in revelation 4 vs !
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven messengers who stand before Yah, and to them were given seven trumpets."[/FONT]
Good work Ellsworth.
Could you please tell me what these pretrib believers...actually believe, as end time prophesy unfolds !!!
I mean, if all these ones disappear to heaven, will that not be a sure sign that the Lord is active and here ?
Of course it would... Or are they going to rapture themselves ?
So then IF there is such a thing as a pretrib rapture, then the SIGN of our lord's presence is expected...right !
Now scripture says... no one knows when He comes... right !
If there is a pretrib rapture then no way can our Lord come as a "thief in the night".
So those scriptures must be WRONG then ...according to "them" !!!
These dreamers rewrite the Bible to suit their madness.
If there ever was a belief to "tickel the ears"... its the pretrib rapture lie.
If there ever was a great deception... the pretrib rapture is it.
Allenbee, your reasoning above makes no sense. There is no signs prior to the Lord gathering His church, as it will take place like a thief in the night. Think about that comparison for a moment. The gathering of the church will be evident to the world after it takes place and not before.
How can you call the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 to return to gather us and take us back to the Father's house, a deception?
Prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Regarding this, scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (1 Thes.5:9) and that Jesus rescues us out of the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10). Reason being is that Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. Through faith we have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. Therefore, since we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath because Jesus already satisfied it on our behalf, then we cannot go through God's wrath, which means that the church must be removed prior to the beginning of His wrath. This is sound exegetical teaching.
Those who say that the church must go through God's wrath don't understand the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Nor do they understand that said wrath will be directed at a Christ rejecting world, the arrogant, the proud, those willfully living according to the sinful nature. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked! By the time the 7th bowl has been poured out, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.
We don't rewrite anything, but we cross-reference and compare scripture to form our interpretation. The Lord will come to gather His church like a thief in the night. Where the Lord's return to the earth to end the age is marked by many signs of wrath that must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
The on-going error is expositors not recognizing the gathering of the church as being a separate event from the Lord's return to end the age.
We are looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of our great God and savior Jesus Christ. You and others on the other hand, are expecting to go through God's wrath, not trusting that Christ already suffered God's wrath on our behalf. Those who believe that the Lord will gather His church prior to His wrath preach the blessed hope. However, those who teach that the church must first go through God's wrath prior to being gathered, preach a message of despair. For there would be no blessed hope, nor could we comfort one another with the Lord's promise to gather us if in fact His wrath must take place first.
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Mat 24:3 And as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the taught ones came to Him separately, saying, “Say to us, when shall this be, and what is the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Mat 24:4 And יהושע answering, said to them, “Take heed that no one leads you astray.
Mat 24:5 “For many shall come in My Name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they shall lead many astray.
Mat 24:6 “And you shall begin to hear of fightings and reports of fightings. See that you are not troubled, for these have to take place, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 “For nation shall rise against nation, and reign against reign. And there shall be scarcities of food, and deadly diseases, and earthquakes in places.
Mat 24:8 “And all these are the beginning of birth pains.
Mat 24:31 “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Mat 24:32 “And learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that the summer is near.
Mat 24:36 “But concerning that day and the hour no one knows, not even the messengers of the heavens, but My Father only.
Mat 24:37 “And as the days of Noaḥ, so also shall the coming of the Son of Aḏam be.
Mat 24:38 “For as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noaḥ entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall the coming of the Son of Aḏam be.
Mat 24:40 “Then two shall be in the field, the one is taken and the one is left.
Mat 24:41 “Two shall be grinding at the mill, one is taken and one is left.
Mat 24:42 “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Master is coming.
Mat 24:4 And יהושע answering, said to them, “Take heed that no one leads you astray.
Mat 24:5 “For many shall come in My Name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they shall lead many astray.
Mat 24:6 “And you shall begin to hear of fightings and reports of fightings. See that you are not troubled, for these have to take place, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 “For nation shall rise against nation, and reign against reign. And there shall be scarcities of food, and deadly diseases, and earthquakes in places.
Mat 24:8 “And all these are the beginning of birth pains.
Mat 24:31 “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Mat 24:32 “And learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that the summer is near.
Mat 24:36 “But concerning that day and the hour no one knows, not even the messengers of the heavens, but My Father only.
Mat 24:37 “And as the days of Noaḥ, so also shall the coming of the Son of Aḏam be.
Mat 24:38 “For as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noaḥ entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall the coming of the Son of Aḏam be.
Mat 24:40 “Then two shall be in the field, the one is taken and the one is left.
Mat 24:41 “Two shall be grinding at the mill, one is taken and one is left.
Mat 24:42 “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Master is coming.
DiscipleDave...I have seen someone who looks just like your avitar and spews forth the same bunch of BS as you have just got through posting.
I would recommend you listen to someone like Ahwatukee. His advice is solid.