The Rapture

[Bogadile]

So the barn Jesus gathers His people to at the end of the world is now Pella? That is weak sauce my friend.

 

[PlainWord]

There's more:

Hos 13:15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.

Adam Clarke:

Verse 15
Though he be fruitful - יפריא yaphri ; a paronomasia on the word אפרים ephrayim, which comes from the same root פרה parah, to be fruitful, to sprout, to bud.

An east wind shall come - As the east wind parches and blasts all vegetation, so shall Shalmaneser blast and destroy the Israelitish state.

Adam Clarke's believe it or not..

Locutus/KJV1611, Can I add to this? Not to take anything away from my new friend, Locutus, who I am really starting to get a huge man crush on (don't worry, I'm straight and married), but this idea of "drying up the Euphrates" preparing the way for the enemy has both literal and spiritual OT significance.

In historic times and really today, a river, sea, or even a brook provides a natural defense. We have two examples of God divinely intervening to dry up a body of water for the assistance of His people, the Red Sea and the Jordan (Josh 2:10, 4:23). So, why can't God do the same thing to aid an army He is sending against His (soon-to-be former) people?

We also have an example of a severe drought drying up the Euphrates before and this happened specifically in relation to Babylon's destruction (Another fortified and seemingly impenetrable city, which Jerusalem is being compared to BTW) as mentioned in Jer 50:38:

A drought is against her waters, and they will be dried up. For it is the land of carved images, And they are insane with their idols.

When waters are dried up, the natural defenses are gone as we see here from John's favorite passage to steal imagery from, Isa 37:35:

I have dug and drunk water, And with the soles of my feet I have dried up All the brooks of defense.’

Now, we know there was a severe famine in the Land prior to the War and famines are often caused by droughts. This is mentioned in the "beginnings of sorrows." So take your pick, the waters of the Euphrates were either "dried up" (lowered, making it easier to cross) by drought or done divinely by God. I'm leaning towards the first, less fantastic, explanation. Regardless, Titus' troops came from that area and that's not in dispute and Locutus and I have given KJV1611 reasonable Biblical arguments for the fulfillment of this miracle.

 

[PlainWord]

So the barn Jesus gathers His people at the end of the world is now Pella? That is weak sauce my friend.

Not the end of the world, the end of the age, good buddy. Notice, nothing says they were taken to heaven?

 

[PlainWord]

When waters are dried up, the natural defenses are gone as we see here from John's favorite passage to steal imagery from, Isa 37:35:

meant to say "favorite prophet" not passage. John loved Isaiah and uses his figurative language the most.

 

[J7]

Except Jesus is talking about the end of the World.

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

We were talking about whether or not offensive things were in the kingdom (Mt 13:41). The context here was the tares (unbelieving Jews) and the wheat (believing Jews) "growing" together. The tares were to be separated out (from the kingdom) while the wheat was to be gathered into the barn (Pella). The tares were gathered into Jerusalem where they were shut inside by the siege, starved and slaughtered by their own people then finished off by the Romans. The bodies of the 1 million or so dead inside were not buried, they were stacked up in houses and lined the streets in piles. They were eventually burned in the fires of Jerusalem after being plucked at by birds. It was a real horror show and I can only imagine the stench having grown up on a chicken farm.

Yes, this was very serious business, God destroying who were formally His people, yet they rejected His Son and were living in such wickedness sin doing things you wouldn't believe. They were likely the most wicked and evil generation EVER and needed to be destroyed. They were far worse than Sodom and Babel or those before the Flood which is why Jesus uses the comparison.

My "joke" wasn't even a joke, I simply said, they were outside the kingdom, which they were both spiritually and literally because the "kingdom" was moved to Pella literally but spiritually it was taken from Israel and given to the church. Anyway, sorry if I hurt your feelings.

 

[Locutus]

1[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell.

According to Josephus, the city was divided into three parts by the three tyrants. You had the upper and lower city and the Temple area which included Fort Antonia and was connected to the city by bridges. All the other cities of the nations (tribes) fell before Titus set siege to Jerusalem which is where most of the Jews living in the surrounding cities fled thinking Jerusalem with her massive walls was impenetrable.

Josephus in his "Wars of the Jews" states that the rivaling Israelite factions divided the the city into three parts:

When therefore Titus had marched over that desert which lies between Egypt and Syria, in the manner forementioned, he came to Cesarea: having resolved to set his forces in order at that place, before he began the war.

Nay indeed while he was assisting his father at Alexandria, in settling that government which had been newly conferred upon them by God, it so happened, that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions and that one faction fought against the other… one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.

.....And now there were three treacherous factions in the city, the one parted from the other.

Josephus"War" Book 5, chapter 1

Back to the future...

 

[PlainWord]

Except Jesus is talking about the end of the World.

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Now you are mixing different concepts. The kingdom is spiritual. The kingdom is made up of people from all over. The "sea" often represents "gentile nations" so this is a double figurative. "Net cast into the Gentile nations" gathering people of all different kinds. The net is still out there doing it's job.

Jesus was NOT discussing the end of the world, in fact the literal end of planet EARTH is not discussed anywhere in the Bible. He was discussing the end of the age, the covenant age of Israel. He made a new covenant with those who believe on Him. We are in this new covenant age now, which the lesser informed call, "the millennium."

 

[J7]

End of the World

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

[PlainWord]

Josephus in his "Wars of the Jews" states that the rivaling Israelite factions divided the the city into three parts:

When therefore Titus had marched over that desert which lies between Egypt and Syria, in the manner forementioned, he came to Cesarea: having resolved to set his forces in order at that place, before he began the war.

Nay indeed while he was assisting his father at Alexandria, in settling that government which had been newly conferred upon them by God, it so happened, that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions and that one faction fought against the other… one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.

.....And now there were three treacherous factions in the city, the one parted from the other.

Josephus"War" Book 5, chapter 1

Back to the future...

Exactly. We see eye to eye on much of this stuff. I consider you to be included among the very highest echelon of Biblical knowledge and spiritual insight!! The futurists?? Not so much, sorry.

 

[PlainWord]

End of the World

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Now why would He bother to separate them by nations if the world was ending? Is salvation based on national or individual merit (faith)? How can entire nations be moved? Is He going to literally lift entire countries and move half to His right side and half to His left side? Are none in China or Iran saved? Are the saved in those goat nations doomed to hell with the rest? Common, you know better than that.

The "kingdom" is spiritual, right? Can't be observed. Please go back and give this more thought. It will have more impact when you figure this out on your own. Not trying to be mean or condescending, just wanting to challenge you to think more.

 

[Locutus]

I can't claim much credit PLW - I've just spent time collating the work or others really.

 

[PlainWord]

I can't claim much credit PLW - I've just spent time collating the work or others really.

Opening your eyes to the truth, however you did it, is worthy of much credit. It's not easy to give up on closely held beliefs even when the truth is slapping you in the face. Gotta run for the day, keep everyone on the straight and narrow, LOC.

 

[J7]

"Pas ethnos" means all peoples, (i.e. People of every tribe, not just Israelites).

This clears any confusion. This is the final judgement, not God's judgement on apostate Jewry.

Now why would He bother to separate them by nations if the world was ending? Is salvation based on national or individual merit (faith)? How can entire nations be moved? Is He going to literally lift entire countries and move half to His right side and half to His left side? Are none in China or Iran saved? Are the saved in those goat nations doomed to hell with the rest? Common, you know better than that.

The "kingdom" is spiritual, right? Can't be observed. Please go back and give this more thought. It will have more impact when you figure this out on your own. Not trying to be mean or condescending, just wanting to challenge you to think more.

 

[KJV1611]

Matthew 5:18

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

When was all fulfilled? How about on the last day? When did "heaven and earth" pass away? Last day, perhaps? Again, earth = Israel.

It was fulfilled at the resurrection of Christ.... that was the last day of the old covenant ended, the last day of the sun, moon and stars.

The verse you quoted actually says that not one jot or tittle will not be fulfilled UNTIL heaven and earth pass. It is NOT saying that the fulfillment of heaven and earth passing away is the last day.

When heaven and earth pass, all will be fulfilled.

 

[Locutus]

It was fulfilled at the resurrection of Christ.... that was the last day of the old covenant ended, the last day of the sun, moon and stars.

The verse you quoted actually says that not one jot or tittle will not be fulfilled UNTIL heaven and earth pass. It is NOT saying that the fulfillment of heaven and earth passing away is the last day.

When heaven and earth pass, all will be fulfilled.

G'day 16 - so if "heaven and earth" have not passed away, then every "one jot or tittle" of the Law is still in effect, and bearing in mind that those "jots and tittles" are part of the old covenant how do you square that up with Hebrews:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[KJV1611]

I don't think it's possible to make it anything we want 16.

This is from J.S. Russell's "The Parousia":

The sixth vial, like the sixth trumpet, takes effect upon the great river Euphrates (ver. 12), the water of which is dried up, that ‘the way of the kings of the east may be prepared.’ We now approach the catastrophe.

In the vision of the sixth trumpet we see an innumerable host mustered for the great battle; in the vision of the sixth vial we see ‘three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet;’ the emissaries of the powers of darkness go forth to muster the armies of the ‘kings of the whole world,’ to gather them to the great war of ‘the great day of God Almighty.’

Translated into historical terms this symbol represents the mobilising of the forces of the Empire and of the kings of the neighbouring nations for the Jewish war. The drying up of the Euphrates seems plainly to signify its being crossed with ease and speed; and this, taken in connection with the corresponding symbol under the sixth trumpet, viz. the loosing of the four angels bound at the Euphrates, points to the drawing of troops from that quarter for the invasion of Judea. This we know to be a historical fact

J.S. Russell's believe it or not...

This is typical secular "Left Behind" scholarship lol. Come on man you know the book is symbolic... 4 angels were BOUND up in the Euphrates river, do you really think that's a literal river? You're not backsliding to Left Behind theology are you?

Revelation 9:14 KJV
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

4 angels let loose around the time of Christ to slay THE THIRD PART of men.... what is the 3rd part of men? It's not a number of men, but a part of a man - the 3rd part of men.

1) The lust of the flesh 2) The lust of the eyes 3) The pride of life.

Is that not what the 4 messengers (angels) - Mattew, Mark, Luke and John do.... crucify the flesh of men?

Revelation 9:15 KJV
And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

 

[KJV1611]

Remember John is using prophetic/apocalyptic language, Ezekiel used "dried up" symbolically:

Ezek 17:24 And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done it.

Adam Clarke:

All the trees of the field shall know - All the people of Israel and of Chaldea.

I the Lord have brought down the high tree - Have dethroned Jehoiachin.

Have exalted the low tree - Put Zedekiah, brother of Jehoiachin, in his place.

Have dried up the green tree - Zedekiah, who had numerous children, but who were all slain before his eyes at Riblah.

Drying up a green tree means to take the WATER aka the word of God out of the tree.

 

[KJV1611]

16 of 11 still chewing on the posts:

Nope, I wasn't chewing. I had other things going on... this is a busy time of the year for me, I have to post and run lol.

 

[KJV1611]

Locutus/KJV1611, Can I add to this? Not to take anything away from my new friend, Locutus, who I am really starting to get a huge man crush on (don't worry, I'm straight and married), but this idea of "drying up the Euphrates" preparing the way for the enemy has both literal and spiritual OT significance.

In historic times and really today, a river, sea, or even a brook provides a natural defense. We have two examples of God divinely intervening to dry up a body of water for the assistance of His people, the Red Sea and the Jordan (Josh 2:10, 4:23). So, why can't God do the same thing to aid an army He is sending against His (soon-to-be former) people?

We also have an example of a severe drought drying up the Euphrates before and this happened specifically in relation to Babylon's destruction (Another fortified and seemingly impenetrable city, which Jerusalem is being compared to BTW) as mentioned in Jer 50:38:

A drought is against her waters, and they will be dried up. For it is the land of carved images, And they are insane with their idols.

When waters are dried up, the natural defenses are gone as we see here from John's favorite passage to steal imagery from, Isa 37:35:

I have dug and drunk water, And with the soles of my feet I have dried up All the brooks of defense.’

Now, we know there was a severe famine in the Land prior to the War and famines are often caused by droughts. This is mentioned in the "beginnings of sorrows." So take your pick, the waters of the Euphrates were either "dried up" (lowered, making it easier to cross) by drought or done divinely by God. I'm leaning towards the first, less fantastic, explanation. Regardless, Titus' troops came from that area and that's not in dispute and Locutus and I have given KJV1611 reasonable Biblical arguments for the fulfillment of this miracle.

Nothing you guys gave me was reasonable.... more Left Behind theology. And I thought you 2 were WAAAAAY beyond that.

 

[KJV1611]

G'day 16 - so if "heaven and earth" have not passed away, then every "one jot or tittle" of the Law is still in effect, and bearing in mind that those "jots and tittles" are part of the old covenant how do you square that up with Hebrews:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

G'day.... that's not even funny man, you're starting to scare me now lol.

Revelation 6:14 KJV
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Heaven and earth passed on that verse, and as far as I can tell, that happened when the great day of his wrath came in AD 70. But no matter, because Matthew 5:18 doesn't say that the law is still in effect UNTIL all is fulfilled, it says that not one jot or title written in the law will not fail to be FULFILLED until heaven and earth pass.

Matthew 5:18 KJV
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.