The Rapture

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PlainWord said:

Take the whole passage:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! [SUP]11 [/SUP]And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

Jesus was amazed by the faith of the Roman centurion (a gentile) who trusted that the uttered word of Christ was enough to heal his servant. Jesus then recognized that the centurion's faith was greater than those in Israel. Jesus then looks ahead knowing that gentiles from all over will accept Him and enter heaven to sit down with the great patriarchs of Israel; Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (in the Kingdom) while many of their descendants (sons of the kingdom) will not be saved and will be "cast into darkness" (separation from God).

That's how I read it anyway.
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I agree but Jesus says "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" which to me means it's now coming or about to come but was not previously there. So if this is the case, what kingdom is "the children of the kingdom" that were cast into darkness?

Right now I can only understand it to be the kingdom of earthly Jerusalem which was the shadow of the soon to come heavenly Jerusalem. What do you think?
 
KJV1611 said:
I agree but Jesus says "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" which to me means it's now coming or about to come but was not previously there. So if this is the case, what kingdom is "the children of the kingdom" that were cast into darkness?

Right now I can only understand it to be the kingdom of earthly Jerusalem which was the shadow of the soon to come heavenly Jerusalem. What do you think?
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The kingdom came at pentecost.
 
Locutus said:
^^^ See I told ya - these futurists will contradict scripture left, right and centre to prop up their fawlty "theology"..

rolleye0010.gif
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One of your group,plainword,says the rapture happens after the millennium.

You guys own rabbit trail theology
 
KJV1611 said:
I agree but Jesus says "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" which to me means it's now coming or about to come but was not previously there. So if this is the case, what kingdom is "the children of the kingdom" that were cast into darkness?

Right now I can only understand it to be the kingdom of earthly Jerusalem which was the shadow of the soon to come heavenly Jerusalem. What do you think?
Click to expand...

Three passages in the Bible contain the phrase, "the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." They are Mt 3:2, 4:17 and 10:7. The first verse it’s John the Baptist speaking, the other two it’s Jesus speaking.

and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

In each case "at hand" is 1448; eggizo; to make near, approach, be at hand, come near, be (come, draw) nigh.

Therefore, Jesus was saying that the kingdom was coming soon. Notice that in two of the passages they are told to REPENT because the "kingdom was coming soon?" This implies to me that if they didn’t repent by the time the kingdom actually arrives, it would be too late and there would be consequences. The consequences, I believe, was the wrath to come.

In the Mt 3 passage, just 4 verses later, JTB goes on to say the below to some very specific people:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. [SUP]12 [/SUP]His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Here we see that those wicked religious leaders seem to be counting on their lineage to Abraham for their salvation. Yet JTB makes clear that “God will raise up other children to Abraham from stones (i.e. gentiles) who will instead gain their inheritance of the kingdom to come. JTB likens the Pharisees and Sadducees to trees that bear no fruit that will be cut down. (That just solved the rest of Rev 7:3 & 8:7 for me as I now know who the trees were. Thank you!!)

Anyway, I don’t believe the Kingdom of Heaven came until the Presence of Christ returned circa 66-70 AD. That’s when judgment wrath began and it would be too late to repent. People were still repenting after Pentecost and coming to salvation (the kingdom) long after Pentecost.

The “Children of the Kingdom” were those wicked leaders who would be cut out of the kingdom to be possessed by the Patriarchs; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (the fathers of Israel) and all the saints. All Jews were “sons of the Patriarchs” but some would be cast out and swept away with His winnowing fan (in His hand) like the chaff on the threshing floor and burned up with unquenchable fire.
 
Wow, two more cool things. This passage:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Goes with this passage:

Rev 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’

The church (in particular, gentile believers) became the spiritual Children of the Kingdom taking the place (inheritance) of the literal Children of the Kingdom (the wicked religious leaders of the day).

____________________

The other cool thing is that both JTB and Jesus were talking about repenting and baptizing, BEFORE the Kingdom came. This would be a totally weird and unfamiliar idea to them. The word "baptize" is not found in the OT or in the Law. The idea of repentance without sacrifice must have been such an unfamiliar concept, that no wonder the religious leaders felt threatened and wanted to see for themselves what this new doctrine was. This new doctrine (way) cuts them completely out, takes away their authority and prestige and leaves them without a livelihood.

Both JTB and Jesus had to go. Since both also threatened Rome's authority and the "kingship" of Caesar, the religious leaders easily found a willing accomplice in Rome.
 
Bogadile said:
Was that a typo? I think it was supposed to read: "No, the rapture did not happen yet"
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No typo. The "rapture" was the resurrection. "Sleep" was the term given to those in Hades/Sheol who were waiting to be freed.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

You don't think the souls of those early Christians are still sleeping in Hades do you? Rev 7:9 shows them in Heaven.
 
PlainWord said:
No typo. The "rapture" was the resurrection. "Sleep" was the term given to those in Hades/Sheol who were waiting to be freed.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

You don't think the souls of those early Christians are still sleeping in Hades do you? Rev 7:9 shows them in Heaven.
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The bodies of those christians are sleeping until the resurrection which happens in the future.
 
KJV1611 said:
I agree but Jesus says "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" which to me means it's now coming or about to come but was not previously there. So if this is the case, what kingdom is "the children of the kingdom" that were cast into darkness?

Right now I can only understand it to be the kingdom of earthly Jerusalem which was the shadow of the soon to come heavenly Jerusalem. What do you think?
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Sounds about right KJV.

The earthly Kingdom of Israel was to change into a heavenly Kingdom.
That is why Matthew speaks of the Kingdom of Heaven, as opposed to earth.
Luke just says Kingdom of God, because the transition does not exist for gentiles.
 
Bogadile said:
The bodies of those christians are sleeping until the resurrection which happens in the future.
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Good day Bogadile,

Yes, you are correct. When a believer in Christ dies, their spirit/soul departs from the body and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord, while the body sleeps in the dust of the earth until the resurrection (2 Cor.5:6, Phil.1:23).

In opposition, those who die without Christ, their spirits/souls depart and go into Sheol/Hades where they are in torment in flame (Luke 16:19-31), where at the end of the millennial period they too will be resurrected only to be cast into the lake of fire (Dan.12:1-2, John 5:28, Rev.20:11-21)

Body = Sleeping

Righteous - Spirit/Soul = In the presence of Christ

Wicked - Spirit/Soul = In torment in Sheol/Hades
 
PlainWord said:
Three passages in the Bible contain the phrase, "the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." They are Mt 3:2, 4:17 and 10:7. The first verse it’s John the Baptist speaking, the other two it’s Jesus speaking.

and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

In each case "at hand" is 1448; eggizo; to make near, approach, be at hand, come near, be (come, draw) nigh.

Therefore, Jesus was saying that the kingdom was coming soon. Notice that in two of the passages they are told to REPENT because the "kingdom was coming soon?" This implies to me that if they didn’t repent by the time the kingdom actually arrives, it would be too late and there would be consequences. The consequences, I believe, was the wrath to come.

In the Mt 3 passage, just 4 verses later, JTB goes on to say the below to some very specific people:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. [SUP]12 [/SUP]His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Here we see that those wicked religious leaders seem to be counting on their lineage to Abraham for their salvation. Yet JTB makes clear that “God will raise up other children to Abraham from stones (i.e. gentiles) who will instead gain their inheritance of the kingdom to come. JTB likens the Pharisees and Sadducees to trees that bear no fruit that will be cut down. (That just solved the rest of Rev 7:3 & 8:7 for me as I now know who the trees were. Thank you!!)

Anyway, I don’t believe the Kingdom of Heaven came until the Presence of Christ returned circa 66-70 AD. That’s when judgment wrath began and it would be too late to repent. People were still repenting after Pentecost and coming to salvation (the kingdom) long after Pentecost.

The “Children of the Kingdom” were those wicked leaders who would be cut out of the kingdom to be possessed by the Patriarchs; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (the fathers of Israel) and all the saints. All Jews were “sons of the Patriarchs” but some would be cast out and swept away with His winnowing fan (in His hand) like the chaff on the threshing floor and burned up with unquenchable fire.
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Nice! And it does explain THE THIRD PART of trees.
 
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Originally Posted by PlainWord No, the rapture happened, then the millennium
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Bogadile said:
Was that a typo? I think it was supposed to read: "No, the rapture did not happen yet"
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Correct again! The promises that Yeshua made is to the entire church, not just to part of the first century. If the rapture had already happened it would leave the bulk of the church out of that promise.

When the next stage of the first resurrection takes place, those who have died in Christ from the beginning of the church will resurrect. Immediately following that, the living in Christ will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies with the entire church from beginning to end meeting the Lord in the air, so that the whole church will be gathered in one place.

According to PW's version, it would leave the church, that would have continued to be built after 70 AD, out of Christ's promise of the resurrection. Again, the living church cannot be on this earth during the time of God's wrath and therefore must be changed and caught up prior to that first seal being opened.
 
Again with the presence of Christ returning in 70AD, I fail to see how it returned, the people were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit since Pentecost.
You mention the greek word Parousia which means (supposedly, I do not know greek) a short visit of a king. The question is, if the presence occured in Jerusalem, around the temple and mount of olives as I have heard, what good would that do to the Christians who fled Jerusalem before the attack begun?
Not to mention, seeing a light in the sky does not seem "spectacular" or "special" enough to count as a return of bodily presence. Just sounds like a terribly weak argument to be honest. But hey, if the light phenomena that they saw comforted them or something, great.
 
KJV1611 said:
Nice! And it does explain THE THIRD PART of trees.
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No it doesn't explain "the third part of the trees." The reference to a third of the earth and a third of the trees being burned up, which is the first trumpet, will take place literally. The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to be the worst time in the history of the world, dismantling all human government and decimating the majority of the earths population.

You people who believe and teach as you do, have no idea of the wrath that is coming upon t his earth! All of those events that will result from the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be literal plagues of wrath that God is going to pour out upon this earth and not something that happened spiritually in the past. When it says that "a third of the earth and trees will be burned up" that is exactly what is going to happen. When scripture says that a third of the earths population is going to be killed by those four angels and their army via fire, smoke and sulfur issuing from their mouths, that is exactly what is going to happen. When the scripture says that the sun is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat, that is exactly what is going to happen, etc., etc.
 
Parousia means being present. There is no notion of time associated.

Did you come to the party?
Yes, I pitched up.


That is all it is, physical presence.
 
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