You crack me up. You're truly a breath of fresh air!I'm sorry PLW, I have to go with 16 of 11 on this one...
The Rapture
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This is where NEW information should change our doctrine instead of adding 2000 years or "double meaning" lol.I'm sorry PLW, I have to go with 16 of 11 on this one...
1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Why would Peter who is informing his audience that "[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]the end of all things is at hand" (i.e. the end of the age and the Jewish "world") start waxing eloquent about the end of the universe in his 2nd letter?[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]There is no justification for using the word elements in its modern sense, when all the usages of [/FONT]stoicheion in other NT scripture speaks of religious and philosophical issues.
How do you justify your hermeneutic?
Why would Peter who is informing his audience that "[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]the end of all things is at hand" (i.e. the end of the age and the Jewish "world") start waxing eloquent about the end of the universe in his 2nd letter?[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]There is no justification for using the word elements in its modern sense, when all the usages of [/FONT]stoicheion in other NT scripture speaks of religious and philosophical issues.
How do you justify your hermeneutic?
1 Peter 4:6 KJV
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Did you catch verse 6 Locutus? The gospel was preached to them that are DEAD, that they might be judged according to men that are alive.
Could this be the gospel that Jesus preached in hell or hades or the grave where some were raised to evelasting life and some to everlasting shame?
NO, in the 1000 Year earthly Kingdom, it says there will still be people dieing, even though they live hundreds of years. In fact it says they will be considered a Youth if they die at a Hundred years of age. We will be in our glorified immortal bodies, but the 144,000 will be in their mortal bodies, repopulating Israel, and they will still grow old and die. THEREFORE, Judgement Day, after that 1000 years, just before the Eternal State, is when DEATH is cast into the Lake of Fire:
Revelation 20:14-15 (CSBBible)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
That is Judgement Day. ☝
1 Corinthians 15:53 (CSBBible)
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this corruptible body must be clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal body must be clothed with immortality.
That happened at the Rapture to us before the Tribulation even starts. ☝
Isaiah 65:18-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Then be glad and rejoice forever in what I am creating; for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy and its people to be a delight.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people. The sound of weeping and crying will no longer be heard in her.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] In her, a nursing infant will no longer live only a few days, or an old man not live out his days. Indeed, the youth will die at a hundred years, and the one who misses a hundred years will be cursed.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] People will build houses and live ⌊in them⌋; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] They will not build and others live ⌊in them⌋; they will not plant and others eat. For My people’s lives will be like the lifetime of a tree. My chosen ones will fully enjoy the work of their hands.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] They will not labor without success or bear children ⌊destined⌋ for disaster, for they will be a people blessed by the LORD along with their descendants.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Even before they call, I will answer; while they are still speaking, I will hear.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but the serpent’s food will be dust! They will not do what is evil or destroy on My entire holy mountain,” says the LORD.
This is talking about the 144,000 and their descendants. ☝
Because you have never learned to COUNT as GOD COUNTS,
You only know how to Count as a human counts.
Psalm 90:4 (NCV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] To you, a thousand years is like the passing of a day, or like a few hours in the night.
2 Peter 3:8 (CSBBible)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]
Dear friends, don't overlook this one fact: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
You do realize that the Jerusalem that God CREATES in that verse is heavenly Jerusalem don't you? The child that dies at a hundred is the Christian that God blesses with long life... the average life span of a person - 100 years old.
Think man... this is a spiritual book about Jesus and the things he does for us.
I'm not sure how to take that, I've seen the various commenters on this and opinions vary.
If you read it from 4:3 where Peter is speaking to the Gentiles and the way of life of the "dead":
"For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentile" and "Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you"
I think it is more conducive to thinking that the dead that were preached to were Gentiles (of course some of them rejected the message.)
You may be right, but it is interesting that in the same dialogue and just a few verses previous to those verses, Peter talks about Jesus ministering to the spirits in prison.
1 Peter 3:19 KJV
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
I dunno - here is Adam Clarke again:
Verse 19
By which - Spirit, his own Divine energy and authority.
He went and preached - By the ministry of Noah, one hundred and twenty years.
Unto the spirits in prison - The inhabitants of the antediluvian world, who, having been disobedient, and convicted of the most flagrant transgressions against God, were sentenced by his just law to destruction. But their punishment was delayed to see if they would repent; and the long-suffering of God waited one hundred and twenty years, which were granted to them for this purpose; during which time, as criminals tried and convicted, they are represented as being in prison - detained under the arrest of Divine justice, which waited either for their repentance or the expiration of the respite, that the punishment pronounced might be inflicted.
This I have long believed to be the sense of this difficult passage, and no other that I have seen is so consistent with the whole scope of the place. That the Spirit of God did strive with, convict, and reprove the antediluvians, is evident from Genesis 6:3; : My Spirit shall not always strive with man, forasmuch as he is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years. And it was by this Spirit that Noah became a preacher of righteousness, and condemned that ungodly world, Hebrews 11:7, who would not believe till wrath - Divine punishment, came upon them to the uttermost.
The word [FONT="]πνευμασι, spirits, is supposed to render this view of the subject improbable, because this must mean disembodied spirits; but this certainly does not follow, for the spirits of just men made perfect, Hebrews 12:23, certainly means righteous men, and men still in the Church militant; and the Father of spirits, Hebrews 12:9, means men still in the body; and the God of the spirits of all flesh, Numbers 16:22; Numbers 27:16, means men not in a disembodied state.[/FONT]
This guy doesn't know what he's talking about lol. This is how I see it.
1 Peter 3:18-19 KJV
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
By which (the suffering for sins, that he might bring us to God) also he (Christ) went and preached to the spirits (the ones who died before Christ) in prison (hell).
Luke 16:22-23 KJV
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Like I said 16 "I dunno" - it's possible that Christ went to Hades to preach - but then all of them would be saved wouldn't they?
Who would reject the Son of God after being in Hades for a few decades or centuries?....
And how does that work as faith? You don't have salvation by faith when the Son of God is staring you in the face.
Who would reject the Son of God after being in Hades for a few decades or centuries?....
And how does that work as faith? You don't have salvation by faith when the Son of God is staring you in the face.
NO, IT OBVIOUSLY IS HIS EARTHLY 1000 Year KINGDOM, and part of the PROOF IS THEY ARE PLANTING CROPS AND HARVESTING THE FOOD.
Isaiah 65:18-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Then be glad and rejoice forever in what I am creating; for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy and its people to be a delight.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people. The sound of weeping and crying will no longer be heard in her.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] In her, a nursing infant will no longer live only a few days, or an old man not live out his days. Indeed, the youth will die at a hundred years, and the one who misses a hundred years will be cursed.
[SUP]21[/SUP] People will build houses and live ⌊in them⌋; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] They will not build and others live ⌊in them⌋; they will not plant and others eat. For My people’s lives will be like the lifetime of a tree. My chosen ones will fully enjoy the work of their hands.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] They will not labor without success or bear children ⌊destined⌋ for disaster, for they will be a people blessed by the LORD along with their descendants.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Even before they call, I will answer; while they are still speaking, I will hear.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but the serpent’s food will be dust! They will not do what is evil or destroy on My entire holy mountain,” says the LORD.
This is talking about the 144,000 and their descendants. ☝
YOU THINK THAT IS REFERRING TO HEAVENLY JERUSALEM?
THAT IS THE DUMBEST MIS-INTERPRETATION THAT I HAVE EVER HEARD.
AT THE START OF HIS EARTHLY KINGDOM, HE WILL REBUILD JERUSALEM, DESTROYED BY WWIII, AND THE FINAL BATTLE BETWEEN CHRIST AND ALL THE WORLDS ARMIES. HE SPECIFICALLY REBUILDS EARTHLY JERUSALEM FOR THE 144,000 JEWS HE SEALED IN THEIR MORTAL BODIES, AND FOR HIS THRONE FOR A THOUSAND YEARS WHEN ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE REQUIRED TO COME WORSHIP HIM IN JERUSALEM AND CELEBRATE THE FESTIVAL OF BOOTHS.
Zechariah 14:11-21 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another's hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "HOLY TO THE LORD." And the cooking pots in the LORD'S house will be like the bowls before the altar.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.
In heavenly Jerusalem, the Dwelling Places were already built by our BRIDEGROOM, therefore we will not be building houses.
John 14:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
In heavenly Jerusalem, we will be SERVING THE LORD Day and Night, NOT FARMING.
Revelation 7:15-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
In heavenly Jerusalem we will have put on immortality, not dieing after a few hundred years.
1 Corinthians 15:53 (CSBBible)
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this corruptible body must be clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal body must be clothed with immortality.
In heavenly Jerusalem we will not be marrying other humans, nor will we be producing descendants.
Matthew 22:29-30 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
VCO...that is not the way I read the 144,000 Jewish evangelist. They are in Heaven as we will be along with the martyrd and Great tribulation saints.
The ones who live through the GT both gentile and Jew (those who fled to petra) are the ones it appears that will repopulate the earth. However, God will take the sin away from the Israelites forever so the only ones to die (it appears) will be the gentiles. They will have 100 years to make up their mind if they believe in Jesus or not and if not then they will die and await the Great WHite THrone Judgement. Jesus will rule the earth's nations through Israel and the Church will be Kings and Priest. Justice will be swift and accurate. Those who accept Jesus as their LORD will not die a 2nd death but rather live out the 1000 years and then be allowed in Heaven. The final judgement will only include the resurrection of those that did not accept God or Jesus Christ throughout History. WHile it is not clear if they will receive a immortal body, their soul is already immortal and needs nothing to put on just to be thrown into the lake of fire.
Rem.....Satan is bound for 1000 years while the 'antichrist and false profit' are thrown into the lake of fire..... When Satan is also thrown into the lake of fire, they are still there awaiting him. Yes, the lake of fire is forever.
For those out there that laugh at the Lake of Fire, I would be very afraid.
Has anyone noticed that nowhere does it say that the 144 000 are Jewish evangelists?
Who made that up? I think it is because afterwards it says that he saw a multitude of peoples from all tribes and nations and so on, so people assume that those 144 000 spread the gospel to them? I guess.
By the way: Kingdom of Israel was the northern tribes and the capital was Samaria at one point, while the inhabitants of the kingdom of Judah were called Jews and its capital being Jerusalem, the tribe of Benjamin and some Levites also lived there.
It could be compared to USA today, all southerners are americans, but not all americans are southerners. Same thing applies here, all Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews.
Just clearing it up, I think language has changed due to the 10 tribes being lost for so long.
Who made that up? I think it is because afterwards it says that he saw a multitude of peoples from all tribes and nations and so on, so people assume that those 144 000 spread the gospel to them? I guess.
By the way: Kingdom of Israel was the northern tribes and the capital was Samaria at one point, while the inhabitants of the kingdom of Judah were called Jews and its capital being Jerusalem, the tribe of Benjamin and some Levites also lived there.
It could be compared to USA today, all southerners are americans, but not all americans are southerners. Same thing applies here, all Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews.
Just clearing it up, I think language has changed due to the 10 tribes being lost for so long.
Here's the 144,000 in the old testament.
Ezekiel 9:4-7 KJV
And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
[5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
[6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
[7] And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Read Ezekiel 8 and 9, it's very revealing about the timing of the sealing of the 144,000.
Correct. I have maintained that all along. They are simply redeemed Jews who are also raptured, since they are found singing before the throne of God in Revelation 14. But they are not imaginary Jews or something else. They are clearly identified with the 12 tribes of Israel.
Some tell me I'm committing 'suicide by diet'. Race you there!
That is what I need to do. No way am I racing you
.We aren't the ones with all the movies and books out there making a fortune in the fear mongering business.