The Rapture

[KJV1611]

Meant to point out that "parousia" is 3952 in the text I provided above. They didn't ask when He would return, they asked when His presence would return. This is a hugely important distinction and solves so many problems.

Ask yourself, did the age terminate at the Cross, His resurrection, or when the temple was destroyed and the nation of Israel dissolved for nearly 2 millennia and with it, the Law?

This could be a case where trying to understand a dead ancient language could be causing confusion PW. Paruosia simply means presence like "in person"... It seems to me like you're changing the meaning o the word to fit a non-bodily return. I could be wrong but that's how I see parousia, just presence, nothing mystical about it.

I'm KJV only and it says the end of the world and yes I believe "the world" ended with the resurrection of Christ. We are in the world but not OF the world.

 

[heartofdavid]

Amen brother. If they start handing out computer chips and forcing us to take them, I'm heading for the hills with all my pre-trib friends and will be man enough to admit I'm wrong. Sadly, the other side won't do the same because they can never be wrong because nothing has happened yet and won't. Another 1,000 years could pass and they'll be saying the same things.

Awww,God bless you.

We are men,we need each other to sharpen our interpretation.

 

[KJV1611]

@ PW

The "coming" in the two verse below are the same coming. There is only one coming that is possible for Matthew 10:23 to be true, and that coming was the resurrection of Christ... Agree or disagree?

Matthew 10:23 KJV
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 24:3 KJV
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

[iamsoandso]

This could be a case where trying to understand a dead ancient language could be causing confusion PW. Paruosia simply means presence like "in person"... It seems to me like you're changing the meaning o the word to fit a non-bodily return. I could be wrong but that's how I see parousia, just presence, nothing mystical about it.

I'm KJV only and it says the end of the world and yes I believe "the world" ended with the resurrection of Christ. We are in the world but not OF the world.

Just a question from curiosity, If they were asking him about his coming but then afterwards they didn't quite understand that he was going to die then be raised from the grave and then ascend to heaven would it make sense that they were referring to a second coming?

Why I ask this is that when he was crucified and rose from the grave they were all sitting around or going back fishing as if they felt like they had been mistaken(Im meaning after matt. 24,Mark 13, and Luke 21).

Wouldn't it be more likely that they had just heard him say that not one stone would be left upon another and point to the temple and were wondering about the only coming they then knew anything about the one where they thought he would come and Israel would be free from gentile rule and the messiah would reign over the whole earth and all the nations from Jerusalem?

So when they ask him the things in Matthew 24;3 was it because they thought "wait if he is the messiah who was to come why would he be saying that this would be destroyed,where's the sign of his coming(meaning first)?

 

[KJV1611]

Just a question from curiosity, If they were asking him about his coming but then afterwards they didn't quite understand that he was going to die then be raised from the grave and then ascend to heaven would it make sense that they were referring to a second coming?

Why I ask this is that when he was crucified and rose from the grave they were all sitting around or going back fishing as if they felt like they had been mistaken(Im meaning after matt. 24,Mark 13, and Luke 21).

Wouldn't it be more likely that they had just heard him say that not one stone would be left upon another and point to the temple and were wondering about the only coming they then knew anything about the one where they thought he would come and Israel would be free from gentile rule and the messiah would reign over the whole earth and all the nations from Jerusalem?

So when they ask him the things in Matthew 24;3 was it because they thought "wait if he is the messiah who was to come why would he be saying that this would be destroyed,where's the sign of his coming(meaning first)?

That's a good question. I think they were asking about the coming where Christ would reign and set Israel free from gentile rule, but I think they were expecting a literal earthly kingdom instead of a kingdom that comes without observance.

My opinion is that they asked as you have said and Jesus answered with - the kingdom that comes without observance. The time when the kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to the gentiles.

What's your opinion of the 2 verses, do you think they are both talking about the same coming?

 

[PlainWord]

At least I know what you're talking about now lol. I believe his presence is him in bodily form, what do you believe his presence is?

As seen to all, the bright light that He is called in Rev 18:1.

 

[iamsoandso]

That's a good question. I think they were asking about the coming where Christ would reign and set Israel free from gentile rule, but I think they were expecting a literal earthly kingdom instead of a kingdom that comes without observance.

My opinion is that they asked as you have said and Jesus answered with - the kingdom that comes without observance. The time when the kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to the gentiles.

What's your opinion of the 2 verses, do you think they are both talking about the same coming?

In Luke 21:24 Jesus uses the words "times of the gentiles are fulfilled" I think that was the answer about what they ask of "aeon" an era of time where the gentiles(Rome at that time) would be ruling over them and that Paul is speaking of it the same .

 

[iamsoandso]

That's why I keep saying that the apostles said to honour the authority over them as if ordained by God,Romans 13;1 and 1peter 2 as if the times of the gentiles were not yet full. and that either way you look at it neither the Jews nor the Christians could have received the mark because the fourth beast had not yet divided in to the ten,Revelation 17:12 and so the beast that was nor his mark had either. And which is why Daniel beheld the horns and ask the same thing they did in Matthew 24:3 ,i.e. how long, when, what would be the end?

 

[RickyZ]

lol this is so dumb........... wit all the noise christians are making about the coming mark of the beast do u really think that anyone who grew up in those circles would take it after they turned preterist or something????????? nah what theyd do is they would say ok i was wrong in my preterism and all that church hype was true, im not taking the mark u see........ u dont need to be a professor to figure this out mon, this is just fearmongering here

I'm not necessarily concerned about anyone here - but worldwide there will be a lot of milk drinking/new believers who won't have your confidence and assuredness.

 

[RickyZ]

Amen brother. If they start handing out computer chips and forcing us to take them, I'm heading for the hills with all my pre-trib friends and will be man enough to admit I'm wrong. Sadly, the other side won't do the same because they can never be wrong because nothing has happened yet and won't. Another 1,000 years could pass and they'll be saying the same things.

If nothing happens, when we meet in heaven I will be the first one to hug you and say 'I'm so glad you were right'.

 

[RickyZ]

I applaud your Christ like attitude

Thank you - but it's got a long ways to go

 

[Nehemiah6]

Other than Rev 1:7 (which I think happened in 66 AD) who else did the resurrected Christ appear to during those 40 days who recognized Him?

We can leave aside Rev 1:7 (which is generally accepted to be around 90 AD and has no bearing on this) but Scripture is clear that the resurrected Savior also appeared to over 500 brethren on one occasion, then James, then again all the apostles, and finally Paul (later on) as revealed in 1 Cor 15:5-8:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good evening Nehemiah6,

Sorry to high-jack your post again, but PW is on my ignore list as well. Regarding what PW said:

Other than Rev 1:7 (which I think happened in 66 AD) who else did the resurrected Christ appear to during those 40 days who recognized Him?

Rev.19:11-21 is an account of both Matt.24:29-31 and Rev.1:7, which is a detailed account the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Therefore, in order for Christ's return at 70 AD, the entire world would have had to see the following:

* The greatest earthquake to hit since man has been on the earth which causes the mountains and islands to disappear

* The sun and moon being darkened and the stars (meteorites/asteroids) falling to the earth

* The beast and the kings of the earth all gathered in the valley Megiddo, including the Euphrates being dried up to make way for the kings of the east

* The descending of the Lord with the church following behind him on white horses

* The gathering of the all the birds of the air by that angel to the great supper of God to eat the flesh of all of those kings, their generals, their armies and all those the angels will have gathered

* The beast and the false prophet captured and and thrown alive into the lake of fire

* Satan seized and thrown into the Abyss and sealed over him

* The resurrection of the great tribulation saints

* The beginning of the Christ's thousand year reign

And those are just some of the main events that take place right as Christ returns, which is not including all the revealing of the antichrist and the false prophet, the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments leading up to Christ''s return to the earth to end the age, including the setting up of the abomination in the middle of the seven.

It becomes more and more ridiculous as we consider all that must take place in order to proclaim that the Lord has already returned.

I continue to say it, these people who are believing that the Lord has already returned and that all end-time events have already taken place, have no idea of what is coming upon this world when the real end-time events take place leading up to the Lord's return.

It's going to be interesting to see if they change there tune regarding their belief, seeing that the technology for the mark of the beast has been in use in Sweden and is now being used here. Pretty soon we are going to be seeing more and more people making purchases having their hands scanned instead of swiping cards and cell phone bank apps.

The fact that the mark of the beast is apart of the end-time events leading up to Christ's return will destroy the beliefs of preterism and amillennialism.

 

[PlainWord]

@ PW

The "coming" in the two verse below are the same coming. There is only one coming that is possible for Matthew 10:23 to be true, and that coming was the resurrection of Christ... Agree or disagree?

Matthew 10:23 KJV
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 24:3 KJV
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

It is hugely important that all understand this:

The word, "come" in Mat 10:23 is 2064 eltho: to come or go

The word, "come" in Mat 24:3 is 3952 parousia: a being near, advent, specifically Christ to punish Jerusalem, presence.

Eltho is used a gazillion times. The "come" in Mat 10 has nothing to do with the Cross or resurrection. At the beginning of the chapter, Christ sends the 12 away from Him, out to the cities of Israel. He's just saying they won't hit every town until He comes back to them.

The word "parousia" παρουσίας 3952 which is the word used in Mat 24:3 (not "come" as incorrectly translated) is found in the same form in just 6 total places in the NT:

Mat 24:3, Phi 1:26, 2 Thes 2:1, 2:8, Jam 5:7, 2 Pet 3:4

All of these passages deal with the Presence (parousia) return advent of Christ. This tells me 2 Pet 3 has nothing to do with the world burning up too as in planet, their world (Jerusalem) will be torched.

I showed you the Strong's translation for Parousia. Here's another from Helps Word Study:

3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

Therefore it was the "Personal presence of Christ" returning that was queried in Mat 24:3. Parousia is the same concept as the "Shekhinah Glory of God" concept in the OT. An example would be Psm 68:2:

As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

The point is, no mortal can look upon the fully glorified God and once Christ returned to heaven the same became true for Him. His return was NOT in bodily form. He did that once and He's not doing that again. He would have to become Flesh again to be seen as a man on earth. The Word became flesh once.

Rev 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory.

Only one "angel" can do this!! After Christ ascended He appears as a bright light, just as He did to Paul on the road to Damascus and here when His presence returned to destroy Babylon. Everyone can see a bright light, including the Roman solders, those who pierced Him.

 

[PlainWord]

We can leave aside Rev 1:7 (which is generally accepted to be around 90 AD and has no bearing on this) but Scripture is clear that the resurrected Savior also appeared to over 500 brethren on one occasion, then James, then again all the apostles, and finally Paul (later on) as revealed in 1 Cor 15:5-8:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Thanks for that 1 Cor 15 passage. Funny I missed it as I read it all the time.

90 AD??? Did Christ appear in 90 AD? What was going on then?

 

[PlainWord]

If nothing happens, when we meet in heaven I will be the first one to hug you and say 'I'm so glad you were right'.

Well, you are a few years older than me but I haven't taken good care of myself so chances are I get there first, LOL.

 

[PlainWord]

This could be a case where trying to understand a dead ancient language could be causing confusion PW. Paruosia simply means presence like "in person"... It seems to me like you're changing the meaning o the word to fit a non-bodily return. I could be wrong but that's how I see parousia, just presence, nothing mystical about it.

I'm KJV only and it says the end of the world and yes I believe "the world" ended with the resurrection of Christ. We are in the world but not OF the world.

I guess I already answered this. Parousia means far more than you coming into the room, unless you were the President or someone really important. I believe the age ended with the Law and Return of Christ to oversee that from 66-70 AD. Newcomer Nehemiah6 just gave me the passage to prove I'm right about this, so thanks to him.

1 Cor 15: [SUP]6 [/SUP]After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.

These 500 brethren are saved as Paul usually uses the term to apply to fellow believers. As of the time Paul wrote 1 Cor, which was around 52-53 AD, those who died in Christ were still "sleeping." The concept of "sleep" "asleep" "sleeping" applied to those who have died and are in the spiritual realm of Hades/Sheol. When Christ freed the souls in Hades, those who heard His voice, those who die in Christ from that time on don't go to Hades anymore. They go straight to heaven to be with the Lord. So as of the writing of 1 Cor, those believers in Hades were still there and still going there!!!

This means the age did not end at the Cross. It had to end at the destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple and the Law. Here's more proof:

Mt 5:18: For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

All was not fulfilled at the Cross that didn't happen until 70 AD. When does "heaven and earth" pass away (not to be confused with the planet Earth and the Heavenly abode of God)?

2 Pet 3: [SUP]4 [/SUP]and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming (PAROUSIA)? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”... [SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

This describes the destruction of Jerusalem and more particularly, the Temple. The temple was called, "a works" by Josephus. In those days, any grand structure was called "a works."

Now although any one would justly lament the destruction of such a work as this was, since it was the most admirable of all the works that we have seen or heard of, both for its curious structure and its magnitude, and also for the vast wealth bestowed upon it, as well as for the glorious reputation it had for its holiness...

So Peter was discussing the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 2 Pet 3. The "great noise" Peter mentions was so noteworthy that Josephus records it and it happened as the Jews saw their temple on fire. I know you hate me quoting him but read this. The timing is perfect and it fits everything. Besides, Josephus records that the temple burning was the end of the age:

But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages;..As the flames went upward, the Jews made a great clamor, such as so mighty an affliction required, and ran together to prevent it; and now they spared not their lives any longer, nor suffered any thing to restrain their force, since that holy house was perishing, for whose sake it was that they kept such a guard about it...

 

[J7]

At least I know what you're talking about now lol. I believe his presence is him in bodily form, what do you believe his presence is?

Peter tells us exactly what Jesus' Second Coming entails:

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[b]18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

The Coming - Parousia (not to be confused with erchomai) - was shown to us in the transfiguration

17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”
10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”
11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

 

[heartofdavid]

Peter tells us exactly what Jesus' Second Coming entails:

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[b]18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

The Coming - Parousia (not to be confused with erchomai) - was shown to us in the transfiguration

17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”
10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”
11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

This would make a great historicist rendering.

"well there you have it,Jesus,Elijah,Moses,and John the Baptist came and went. We don't need any reference for anything future.
....and,uh,the two witnesses get used up in there also"

....next.

" see how it fits so perfectly"

 

[Muzungu256]

sibilidondon sibilidondon............................ heartofdavid u must agree that just reading the new testament u will see aight jesus is coming bak anytime now........... in matthew 24 if u were to read it in the 1st century u would be convinced that the this generation is talking to u, not to white polish and german people in jerusalem in 2017........... so u would think ok Jesus is coming back on a cloud in my generation u see.......... now its true that often times the cloud is symbolic i see that but did the greeks know the language of the hebrew prophets???????? the people who paul spoke to its the question..........
obviously jesus hasnt returned yet since everything sucks......... sekkluud boi i can hear them shots fired now..........