The Rapture

[J7]

You seem to think you know things... You are caught by your own snide device.

What a joyful contribution

 

[Jackson123]

This is not a good comparison. We are talking about the use of the word church from chapter 1 thru chapter 3. That is the only word used 18 times throughout those chapters. The word "saints" is not used at all within those same chapters. Then from chapter 4 onward and beginning in 5:8, only the word "saints" is used and the word church is never used. It is this abrupt change from the word "church" to the word "saints" that is the clue to understanding that the church is no longer on the earth after the end of chapter 3.

In your example above, eventually the person in the choir is going to be referred to as belonging to the church. But here in Revelation, a distinction is being made between the two. You don't just use the word church, church, church, church, church, church and then abruptly stop using the word church and then change to the word "saints" only, without there being some reason for it. The fact that the elder introduces these saints after John already wrote to the church would demonstrate that this group is other than the church.

Regarding all of this, if you want to believe that the Lord is going to send his church through his wrath after promising to keep them out of that time of wrath, you are free to believe this. But I have been studying Revelation and end-time events for over 40 years and I know God's plan leading up to the end of the age.

Brother,

the he used of the word is depend on situation

like my sample, within the church there are a choir department, prayer warrior etc

Pointed choir member group. we not say that group is a church, we say that group is a choir member

it does not mean there is no church anymore and that group is not church member.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You have virtually invented your own religion Ahwatukee.

No one can stop you, and you no doubt will take others into the pit with you.

I have done my best to counter your heresies.

What can I say?

"If any man thinks he knows something, he knows nothing"

It's kind of hard to prove that I have created my own belief while I am providing scripture right from God's word. You just don't understand it.

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."

The argument will be over soon though. For the church will soon be removed from the earth and then you will see a political leader establish a seven year agreement with Israel, which will allow here to build her temple. At that time, then you will know that what I have been teaching and contending for was the truth. Until then, to you I am someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. But the time is getting close for the church to be gathered and then you will understand, albeit too late.

 

[Magenta]

What a joyful contribution

Is it then true for others but not you??? Or is it true for you, too, and you are therefore caught in your own snide remark? But you come across as one incapable of admitting truth if it exposes your error, regardless of how obvious it is.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Brother,

the he used of the word is depend on situation

like my sample, within the church there are a choir department, prayer warrior etc

Pointed choir member group. we not say that group is a church, we say that group is a choir member

it does not mean there is no church anymore and that group is not church member.

Your example is not applicable here Jackson123. You don't understand what i am revealing to you.

Now, if the word church and saints were used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation, then this would not be an issue. You'd think that some where after chapter 4 that the word "church" would be used at least one time, but it is not. I have studied this information too long for you to convince me otherwise. Any question or thought that you have regarding end-time events and the book of Revelation, I have already asked myself and have investigated inside and out, over and over again. So please, you are not presenting anything that I have not already considered.

 

[J7]

I am out Ahwatukee. No more to say to you.

 

[J7]

Is it then true for others but not you??? Or is it true for you, too, and you are therefore caught in your own snide remark? But you come across as one incapable of admitting truth if it exposes your error, regardless of how obvious it is.

Why would you refer to scripture as a snide remark?

That makes no sense to me, sorry.

We all battle the flesh, so why would I be any different?

Teaching scripture is a very tough ask Magenta.

If you feel I am in error, please show me, and then if you are right I will admit to it. What else can I do?

 

[Jackson123]

Your example is not applicable here Jackson123. You don't understand what i am revealing to you.

Now, if the word church and saints were used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation, then this would not be an issue. You'd think that some where after chapter 4 that the word "church" would be used at least one time, but it is not. I have studied this information too long for you to convince me otherwise. Any question or thought that you have regarding end-time events and the book of Revelation, I have already asked myself and have investigated inside and out, over and over again. So please, you are not presenting anything that I have not already considered.

I am stay in my understanding. The used of world depend on situation. And definition of church is not change

gathering of saint is a church

Paul said both rapture and second coming happen after antichrist being reveal

keep this in mind brother.

 

[Bogadile]

1. Is this happen before the first resurrection? Show me the verse.

2. Beast will kill by the breath of a God, but I do not know if all kill.

Allright, the verses for 1. are:

Revelation 19:11,14 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Then the "first resurrection" is mentioned later in:

Revelation 20:4-5 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

As for 2. you can make a case that a remnant will be saved, however read:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Now perhaps that is talking about the white throne judgment later on.

 

[KJV1611]

Allright, the verses for 1. are:

Revelation 19:11,14 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Then the "first resurrection" is mentioned later in:

Revelation 20:4-5 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

As for 2. you can make a case that a remnant will be saved, however read:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Now perhaps that is talking about the white throne judgment later on.

Do you still not accept the old testament church resurrection as the part of the 1st resurrection?

 

[Bogadile]

I don't know. The Bible doesn't say, but what it does say is the rapture will not happen until the antichrist is revealed first. He is the one who will make Christians martyrs, and they will be given into his hands for a time, times and dividing of time. 2Thes. 2, and Jesus tells us clearly that after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and He'll return.

Now, I can speculate on your question like pre tribbers do with their non Scriptural pre tribulation theory if you can qualify it as a theory. The Bible says we'll judge angels. How do you know we won't be ruling over angels during that time? There are countless angels or how do you know God kills or destroys all the unbelieving people. you don't know; so, I say stick to what you can know and prove Scripturally and stop listening and believing man's conjectures. speculation theories and very poor inferences on what will be. I hope this helps you and answers your questions

I do understand what you are saying Regarding 2 Thess 2 which spells out in verse1 that it is talking about the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him. It does clearly say that, however why would the Thessalonians be shaken in mind or troubled that the day of Christ is at hand? Should they not be happy about it?

That is why I am still considering the timing of the rapture and asking these questions, I see some evidence towards both sides.

 

[J7]

I was viewing it as a completely separate event.

Everything under the Old Covenant was a separate matter, and then with Revelation, we are dealing with the New Covenant.

Correct or wrong?

 

[KJV1611]

I do understand what you are saying Regarding 2 Thess 2 which spells out in verse1 that it is talking about the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him. It does clearly say that, however why would the Thessalonians be shaken in mind or troubled that the day of Christ is at hand? Should they not be happy about it?

That is why I am still considering the timing of the rapture and asking these questions, I see some evidence towards both sides.

The day of the Lord happened at the first coming, the day of Christ happens at his coming before the milennial reign.

 

[J7]

I do understand what you are saying Regarding 2 Thess 2 which spells out in verse1 that it is talking about the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him. It does clearly say that, however why would the Thessalonians be shaken in mind or troubled that the day of Christ is at hand? Should they not be happy about it?

That is why I am still considering the timing of the rapture and asking these questions, I see some evidence towards both sides.

They are shaken in mind because Paul had already clearly taught them a completely different set of events.

Then someone appears to have sent a fake letter purporting to be from Paul detailing a whole new scenario.

So the troubled minds come from Paul appearing to be completely bi-polar.

 

[Bogadile]

Paul said both rapture and second coming happen after antichrist being reveal

Where? Someone points out to me this verse and that pretty much concludes my research lol.

 

[Bogadile]

Do you still not accept the old testament church resurrection as the part of the 1st resurrection?

I still do not yes. I have digged my heels real deep on this one. I think it is the Lutheran background where "There is only one resurrection". I can admit I have some brainwashing on me, just as you admitted earlier you had with dispensationalism.

 

[J7]

Where? Someone points out to me this verse and that pretty much concludes my research lol.

2 Thess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

 

[Bogadile]

J7 but that day could be the day of Christ mentioned there, and not the gathering of the saints, could it not?

Then again to be honest it does say right off the bat "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

 

[J7]

People ask why does eschatology matter?

Well one reason is that a false expectation, e.g. of Jesus coming back tomorrow, disrupts our Christian work


[FONT=&quot]Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, [/FONT]Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

 

[J7]

J7 but that day could be the day of Christ mentioned there, and not the gathering of the saints, could it not?

Then again to be honest it does say right off the bat "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

I am an old fogey Bogadile.

I see 'the rapture', i.e. the gathering of the Saints, and Jesus's 2nd coming, as being pretty much one and the same event.