The Rapture

[Burninglight]

Obviously, I disagree with you. I believe the pre-trib rapture of the Christian church is scriptural..

Well, it is obvious now. As for it being Scriptural, you need Scriptures, but you don't have any to show for it. Christians only use inferences, conjecture, speculation and Scripture out of context; while there are explicit Scripture to support what is true about the gathering to together to Him on the last day..

Some Christians are pre-trib, some are mid-trib, some are post-trib. And then there are Preterists. They all believe they have valid scriptural reasons for believing as they do. Obviously they all cannot be right. But at this point, I believe pre-trib makes the most scriptural sense..

You left out the Pan tribulationsist. they believe it will all pan out, lol..., but it doesn't work that way.

You're free to disagree. It's not a salvation issue.

We all know that we are free to believe and disagree. You are correct, it is not a salvation issue, but it is a dividing element in the church, and this grieves the Holy Spirit and breaks the fellowship of the saints.

It has to do with deception that Paul warns us of. Don't be deceived for that day (rapture) will not happen until there is a falling away first and the man of sin is revealed (Antichrist) who opposes God and shows himself to be God..... 2 Thes 2

You have Paul telling you to come out of this deceptive belief, and you have Jesus telling you it will happen AFTER the tribulation and don't believe a secret return rapture where they say he is here in secret or there, because when He comes everyone will see Him like lighting and a loud nioise from one end of earth to the other. Matthew 24. I have given you Scripture. You have no support your false rapture doctrine with Scripture, because all you have is indoctrination leading to deception on this subject as many Christians do, but no all!

Blessings

 

[tanakh]

In Acts 3:19-20 after the healing of the lame man Peter told the people that Christ would remain in heaven until the restitution of all things. That restitution is not going to happen until the Antichrist is defeated which happens at the end of the tribulation.

 

[KJV1611]

Christ left, but he has not returned yet.

He will.

When he resurrected, he didn't return from hell?

 

[PlainWord]

With the way things are going now, probably the second coming if I live into my 70s.
But even if it is not, the reason why you and I should be looking for Lord's return to happen in our generation is because we can get raptured and not go through physical illnesses and painful death.

Now why would those in our wicked times deserve to escape death more than those in the 100 generations before us? Just saying. It is appointed once for man to die then after this, judgment.

If you have time, study the "putting to death" of the old man and becoming a new man who never dies. This is obviously done in the spirit.

 

[PlainWord]

ABSOLUTELY! It is good to find something we can agree on. In addition to the Roman destruction of the TEMPLE, the Macabean King Simon, ordered the real TEMPLE MOUNT in what is now called the City of David, but was then at the time of Christ, the original location of Jerusalem; TURNED INTO A ROCK QUARRY. He did that because of what the Romans did in 70 A.D., saying even the Rock base was therefore DEFILED on the original Temple Mount. Macabeans removed several meters of rock and used it to fill in the Valley to the South, making a fairly level road coming in from the South to Jerusalem. That distance from the Southern Wall of Fort Antonia to the TEMPLE is only a difference of about 400 ft. to the south of what is today the city limits of Jerusalem.

The Dome of the Rock is in the CENTER of Fort Antonia.

On the Left is the South Wall in the Southeast corner, that is the property line for Jerusalem, South of that Wall is now the City of David. The silverish domed Mosque would be the Southwest corner of Fort Antonia, in this lower Picture.

See that big tree in the Olive grove left of the silver dome, it is one of the oldest Olive Trees in Israel. At least I think that is the tree they were talking about. It would be about the Northwest corner of the TEMPLE OUTER WALL. See that turn in the road going to the right towards that big tree. To the left of that intersection is good size building with what looks like a bell tower. THAT BUILDING MAY BE SITTING ON THE ORIGINAL LOCATION OF SOLOMON'S TEMPLE. Somebody has to move the road, however the Palestinians have no claim to land south of that silver dome.

The Archeologists, and one of them is an Israelite, have been seeking an audiance with the Israeli Government, and the Temple Institute, and getting NO RESPONSE. They think it is because they have a very big, bitter pill to swallow, in admitting they have been praying at the WRONG WALL all these years. The Archeologists are convinced they can PROVE the Whaling Wall is actually only part of Fort Antonia.

Totally agree. I've been saying this very thing. They are praying to the wall of the Roman fortress which was used against them during the last days of the siege. The joke is on the orthodox Jews and the Muslims alike. God doesn't want them to have another temple. They tried to build one I think it was in the 3rd century and fire came up from the earth which made them stop.

 

[Bogadile]

I'm 64 and I believe there's a very good chance that I'll live to see it.

I'm pre-trib, so "it" for me is the rapture.

...could be wrong, of course, but I believe there are many things pointing to Christ's return happening soon.

We'll see.

That is fine. I got no problem with the people who hold to the pre-trib rapture. It is only if it is dogmatic and that I personally can not find it in Scripture, but as I said I am still praying studying this out.

I definately can see the appeal of it, it is great and would sound like something God would do. Also in defense of your view, it is easy to point to the few wingnuts in the pre-trib camp like John Hagee and the people who predict the rapture like Harold Camping or whatever his name was and then paint with a broad brush.

I did have a question too:

1 Corinthians 15:23 "But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ."

is this coming THE second coming, or the rapture?

 

[PlainWord]

Seems like she had a spiritual body if she already had feet.

The case of Robin Michelle Halberdier of Texas City, Texas, illustrates the overwhelming sense of love experiencers often encounter in the light. Her near-death episode took place in a hospital when she was between one and two months of age. Born prematurely, and with Hyaline Membrane disease, she was not expected to live (pages 12-13, paperback version, "BEYOND THE LIGHT"): "My first visual memory was looking forward and seeing a brilliant bright light, almost like looking directly at the sun. The strange thing was that I could see my feet in front of me, as if I were floating upward in a vertical position. I do not remember passing through a tunnel or anything like that, just floating in the beautiful light. A tremendous amount of warmth and love came from the light.

"There was a standing figure in the light, shaped like a normal human being, but with no distinct facial features. It had a masculine presence. The light I have described seemed like it emanated from that figure. Light rays shone all around him. I felt very protected and safe and loved.

"The figure in the light told me through what I now know to be mental telepathy that I must go back, that it was not time for me to come here. I wanted to stay because I felt so full of joy and so peaceful. The voice repeated that it wasn't my time; I had a purpose to fulfill and I could come back after I completed it.

 

[PlainWord]

I always wanted my pets to go to heaven and maybe they shall. This guy had a face.

I found that both adults and children occasionally report being greeted on The Other Side by animals, especially if favored pets have previously died. But it is the children who describe an animal heaven, some even insisting that they must go through it before they can reach the heaven where people are. Adult cases can be equally compelling. Several years before his death, Bryce Bond, a famous New York City media personality turned parapsychologist, shared with me the story of what happened to him when he once collapsed after a violent allergic reaction to pine nuts and was rushed to a hospital. He remembered suddenly passing through a long tunnel toward a brilliant light, and then (pages 13-14, paperback version, "BEYOND THE LIGHT"):
"I hear a bark, and racing toward me is a dog I once had, a black poodle named Pepe. When I see him, I feel an emotional floodgate open. Tears fill my eyes. He jumps into my arms, licking my face. As I hold him, he is real, more real than I had ever experienced him. I can smell him, feel him, hear his breathing, and sense his great joy at being with me again.
"I put my dog on the ground, and step forward to embrace my stepfather, when a very strong voice is heard in my consciousness. Not yet, it says. I scream out, Why? Then this inner voice says, What have you learned, and whom have you helped? I am dumb-founded. The voice seems to be from without as well as within. Everything stops for a moment. I have to think of what was asked of me. I cannot answer what I have learned, but I can answer whom I have helped.
"I feel the presence of my dog around me as I ponder those two questions. Then I hear barking, and other dogs appear, dogs I once had. As I stand there for what seems to be an eternity. I want to embrace and be absorbed and merge. I want to stay. The sensation of not wanting to come back is overwhelming."

Bryce was also greeted by all of his relatives who had passed on before him. He experienced these loved ones as somewhat younger in form and face than when he had last seen them, healthier and happier. He remembered racing backward through the same tunnel he had entered when it was time to leave and reviving in time to witness a hypodermic needle being plunged into his arm. "I heard a voice say, 'Welcome back.' I never asked who said that nor did I care. I was told by the doctor that I had been dead for over ten minutes."

 

[Bogadile]

Seems like she had a spiritual body if she already had feet.

The case of Robin Michelle Halberdier of Texas City, Texas, illustrates the overwhelming sense of love experiencers often encounter in the light. Her near-death episode took place in a hospital when she was between one and two months of age. Born prematurely, and with Hyaline Membrane disease, she was not expected to live (pages 12-13, paperback version, "BEYOND THE LIGHT"): "My first visual memory was looking forward and seeing a brilliant bright light, almost like looking directly at the sun. The strange thing was that I could see my feet in front of me, as if I were floating upward in a vertical position. I do not remember passing through a tunnel or anything like that, just floating in the beautiful light. A tremendous amount of warmth and love came from the light.

"There was a standing figure in the light, shaped like a normal human being, but with no distinct facial features. It had a masculine presence. The light I have described seemed like it emanated from that figure. Light rays shone all around him. I felt very protected and safe and loved.

"The figure in the light told me through what I now know to be mental telepathy that I must go back, that it was not time for me to come here. I wanted to stay because I felt so full of joy and so peaceful. The voice repeated that it wasn't my time; I had a purpose to fulfill and I could come back after I completed it.

NDEs are a funny thing. Muslims always go to heaven, and so do Christians.

The way it works is whatever your idea of heaven is, that is where they supposedly "go".
Would not put too much weight on it unless it is your own experience.

 

[PlainWord]

NDEs are a funny thing. Muslims always go to heaven, and so do Christians.

The way it works is whatever your idea of heaven is, that is where they supposedly "go".
Would not put too much weight on it unless it is your own experience.

I saw a show on it and the Muslim on the show went to that other place. It's just interesting. I don't put too much weight on it.

 

[VCO]

Maybe when we die we "sleep" until the BIG resurrection at the end.

That is not what the Scriptures say.

There are three parts to a mortal human Being: A body, a soul, and a human spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Zechariah 12:1 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] An Oracle The word of the LORD concerning Israel. A declaration of the LORD, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth, and formed the spirit of man within him.


Psalm 146:4 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.


2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


Revelation 6:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] They cried out with a loud voice: “Lord, the One who is holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?”
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until ⌊the number⌋ would be completed ⌊of⌋ their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been.

MAYBE, the soul stays with the body, MAYBE not. HOWEVER, it is absolutely for certain that the HUMAN SPIRIT departs the body upon death, and if you are a TRUE BELIEVER, your spirit, which can also think, and speak will enter Heaven under the altar where CHRIST's sacrificial blood was poured out. AND YOU WILL BE GIVEN A WHITE ROBE. If you are NOT a TRUE BELIEVER, you will not like where your human spirit ends up.

 

[VCO]

I'm 64 and I believe there's a very good chance that I'll live to see it.

I'm pre-trib, so "it" for me is the rapture.

...could be wrong, of course, but I believe there are many things pointing to Christ's return happening soon.

We'll see.

And then there is a barbeque at my cabin, on a bend of the Crystal River, but I probably will not have any beer to go with it.

Like the song says, "I HEAVEN THERE IS NO BEER,"

 

[VCO]

Totally agree. I've been saying this very thing. They are praying to the wall of the Roman fortress which was used against them during the last days of the siege. The joke is on the orthodox Jews and the Muslims alike. God doesn't want them to have another temple. They tried to build one I think it was in the 3rd century and fire came up from the earth which made them stop.

You watch how fast they build that Temple when the Archeologists get their hearing, and show their evidence for the real Temple Mount being in the City of David.

 

[garee]

Old Testament saints have not been resurrected yet. 1 Corinthians 15:23

The gaves were opened in resoect to the first resurrection. When we believe we enter the same the first resurrection As part of the first The second death has no power over those who will not come into condemnation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I did have a question too:

1 Corinthians 15:23 "But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ."

is this coming THE second coming, or the rapture?

Good day Bogadile,

If I may, below is the scripture:

"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

Both! Prior to the wrath of God Christ will appear to gather those who are longing for His appearing, the blessed hope. And there will also be a resurrection of the great tribulation saints after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

Again, this is based on the fact that the church is not appointed to suffer the coming wrath of God, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and which scripture states that the church is not appointed to suffer. Therefore, since the wrath of God begins with the opening of the first seal, then the church must be gathered prior to that plague of wrath.

Those great tribulation saints, who will have been killed during that seven year period at the hands of the antichrist, will be resurrected after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed below:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Notice that these who are being resurrected here is taking place after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and to establish his millennial kingdom as described in Rev.19:11-21. For those who would attempt identify this group being resurrected here in Rev.20:4-6 as being the church, I would direct their attention to the fact that the church/bride is seen returning with Christ in Rev.19:14 as those armies who are riding on white horses and wearing their fine linen, white and clean which they will have received at the wedding of the Lamb. My point is that, those being resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 cannot be the church, because the church/bride is shown to be returning with Christ from heaven in the previous chapter.

In conclusion, the church, "those at His coming" will be resurrected prior to the wrath of God. And those who become believers after the church has been gathered and will have died during that last seven years, will be resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age.

The resurrection and catching away of the church and the resurrection of the great tribulation saints, fall under the banner of the "first resurrection." There are also a couple of other resurrections that fall under the banner of the first resurrection, such as the catching up of the male child/144,000 and the two witnesses, as well as whatever resurrection is taking place in Rev.14. These are all apart of the first resurrection.

I would also make mention of the fact that from Rev.4 onward, believers are never referred to as the church, but always as saints, which is in contrast to chapters 1 thru 3 where believers are only referred to as the church. As I said before, this is no coincidence, but is God's way of making a distinction between the church and the saints who enter into the great tribulation. Otherwise, if both the words church and saints were used interchangeably throughout Revelation, then it would be a none issue.

The important thing to remember is that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which will be in operation during that last seven years, from the time that the first seal is opened and the Lamb/Christ is the One opening them.

 

[Bogadile]

For those who would attempt identify this group being resurrected here in Rev.20:4-6 as being the church, I would direct their attention to the fact that the church/bride is seen returning with Christ in Rev.19:14 as those armies who are riding on white horses and wearing their fine linen, white and clean which they will have received at the wedding of the Lamb. My point is that, those being resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 cannot be the church, because the church/bride is shown to be returning with Christ from heaven in the previous chapter.

Hmm I must admit you have a point there. I will pray and look into it.

 

[Burninglight]

In Acts 3:19-20 after the healing of the lame man Peter told the people that Christ would remain in heaven until the restitution of all things. That restitution is not going to happen until the Antichrist is defeated which happens at the end of the tribulation.

I am awestruck how Christians can be given proof from Scripture that Jesus is coming back after the tribulation, and they don't respond back after seeing it, because they cannot gainsay it and prefer to be in deception about it. It is like willful ignorance. There is something terrible wrong with that, and yet they judge us. I have been rejected from fellowship by some Christians on the count of my believing the Scripture about Jesus' return. Christian views on it is not as harmless as many Christians make it out to be. Any deception or false doctrine in the body of Christ is dangerous

 

[KJV1611]

Zechariah 9:9-11 KJV
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

A king with a CROWN going forth to conquer sin and death.... riding a horse. Agree or no?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I am awestruck how Christians can be given proof from Scripture that Jesus is coming back after the tribulation, and they don't respond back after seeing it, because they cannot gainsay it and prefer to be in deception about it.

Greetings Burninglight,

Jesus is indeed returning to the earth to end the age after the tribulation/wrath of God. However, the problem lies in those not understanding that the gathering of the church as being a separate event vs. the Lord's return to the earth. The error is that, many have made the two events as being synonymous, which they are not.

The problem with this is the lack of understanding that one, the wrath of God will be in operation up until Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. And two, the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (1 Thes.5:9). In addition Jesus said that he would keep believers "out of" that time of trial (Rev.3:10) and that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10).

As I continue to point out, Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord returning to the earth to end the age. And according to Rev.19:14, following behind him coming out of heaven, are those riding on white horses, who are said to be wearing fine linen, white and clean, which are identified as the bride of the Lamb who are shown to be receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb in Rev.19:6-8. These on white horses are the believers within the church who will have previously been resurrected and caught up.

Consequently, in order for those to follow Christ out of heaven, they would have to already be heaven.

After that in Rev.20:4-6, we see another group, the great tribulation saints being resurrected, those who will have kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark.

The gathering of the church is the promise that the Lord made in John 14:1-3, saying that He was going back to the Father's house to prepare rooms for us and that he would come back to get us so that where He is, we may be also, which would be the Father's house. The detailed account of this promise is found in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-52

The other error in understanding that the gathering of the church as being a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, is not understanding the difference between the trials and tribulations that the Lord said believers would have, which come at the hands of mankind and orchestrated by the powers of darkness vs. the coming, unprecedented wrath of God. The latter of which believers are not appointed to suffer.

So, in response to your claim, I have just responded and explained it.

 

[VCO]

Zechariah 9:9-11 KJV
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

A king with a CROWN going forth to conquer sin and death.... riding a horse. Agree or no?

That prophecy in Zech 9 is about when he rode into Jerusalem the first time. Yes he is coming again RIDING THE WHITE HORSE OF A CONQUERING KING.