I believe it is the same Abomination that killed Jesus, and slaughtered all christians that they could, including their own people. Therefore shedding innocent blood across the land . The ROMAN EMPIRE.
The Rapture
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remember Lot's wife.
if there is a rapture?
she is a bride taken by the hand of angels to safety, removed from the destruction of the condemnation of God's wrath because His mercies were upon her because of her groom.
she is a bride removed by angels from impending doom, and she became a pillar of salt, as a sign.
a sign to whom, if there is a rapture? who will remember her - to whom was Jesus speaking when He said 'remember Lot's wife' - and recognize her significance, and when?
if there is a rapture?
she is a bride taken by the hand of angels to safety, removed from the destruction of the condemnation of God's wrath because His mercies were upon her because of her groom.
she is a bride removed by angels from impending doom, and she became a pillar of salt, as a sign.
a sign to whom, if there is a rapture? who will remember her - to whom was Jesus speaking when He said 'remember Lot's wife' - and recognize her significance, and when?
The word "beast" is used to represent kingdoms as well as the rulers of those kingdoms. It is the same in Revelation. The beast is referred to as that last kingdom, but the beast is also used to refer to that last day ruler, the antichrist. Below is an example of the beast as being referred to as a person:
"But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. [The two of them] were thrown [alive] into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
The words "the two of them" would demonstrate that the beast and the false prophet are two individuals. Furthermore, the fact that they are "thrown alive" into the lake of fire, would also support that they are persons and not kingdoms or systems.
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In the parable of the wedding feast it says "those invited would not come ",those invited represent his covenant people the Jews.
So the Father says "go outside the city and get as many as you can" ,those new guests are the gentiles.
Looking back at your old life, and what you left behind, and will miss. That is why lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt.
AHW,
This is a common misconception.
The Woman in Rev 12 starts off as all of Israel. When Christ ascended back into heaven after the Cross, war broke out in heaven. It should be easy to imagine that when victorious Christ who just defeated death returned to heaven that He might have more than a few words with Satan. This is when Satan was cast down to earth. The woman now became the Church. The Jews who rejected Christ were no longer part of the Bride, their branches were cut off. We see in vs 10-11 that salvation had come (the kingdom and power of Christ) and that the woman (the Church) overcame Satan by the Blood of the Lamb.
Once Satan gets to earth, 1,260 days after Christ returns to heaven, he immediately wages war against the Church. The first martyr, Stephen is killed. The Christians are all subject to massive persecution and martyrdom wherever the Gospel was spread. But in vs 14, the woman (the Church) is told to flee to Pella (the wilderness) just prior to the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. Here the Church is nourished for 3.5 years until the war is over. Satan, not being able to do further harm to the Church attacks the off-spring, the rejecting Jews inside Jerusalem and slaughters 1.1 million of them leaving only 98,000 left alive. These are taken to Rome where many more are put to death in the Colosseum.
The other woman, of Rev 17, was apostate Jerusalem (the Christ rejecting murdering Jews). They are the ones, "drunk with the blood of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus." This woman, arrayed in purple and scarlet (the colors of the garments worn by the Jewish priests) all decked out with gold and precious stones, killed their Messiah and many of His followers. The "beast" that carried this woman was Rome. Rome supported this filthy harlot, the Jewish customs and priestly leaders and even put their Messiah to death for this woman.
But in 70 AD, Rome turns on this filthy harlot Woman and absolutely slaughters her, burns down her vile temple, kills the remaining priests and desolates the city. "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.” - This is Jerusalem, the "holiest" city on the planet at that time. Everyone was in awe over Jerusalem in those days.
Jerusalem also sits on 7 hills. Look it up. The harlot of Rev 17 being Jerusalem is absolutely clear from Mat 23. The same symbolism John uses in Rev 17 is first found here, in Mat 23 (right before the Olivet), "fill up" as in "cup."
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. [SUP]32[/SUP]Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [SUP]34 [/SUP]Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, [SUP]35 [/SUP]that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! [SUP]38 [/SUP]See! Your house is left to you desolate; [SUP]39 [/SUP]for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
Can't you see that the Wrath of God was aimed at them??? God had it with them!!! Try really hard and look back on the entire history of the Jewish race from Abraham to the death of Christ and recognize who rejected Christ, scourged Him, killed Him and His disciples. This stiff necked nation had been disobedient more in 2,000 years then they were ever obedient. This is why the Church came about, the kingdom was given to another. All of this is why God destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. It's desolation foretold by Daniel and the other prophets was the conclusion of those wicked nightmare people. The significance of the destruction of Jerusalem cannot be overstated. It was the end. It was finished. God's wrath concluded.
This is a common misconception.
The Woman in Rev 12 starts off as all of Israel. When Christ ascended back into heaven after the Cross, war broke out in heaven. It should be easy to imagine that when victorious Christ who just defeated death returned to heaven that He might have more than a few words with Satan. This is when Satan was cast down to earth. The woman now became the Church. The Jews who rejected Christ were no longer part of the Bride, their branches were cut off. We see in vs 10-11 that salvation had come (the kingdom and power of Christ) and that the woman (the Church) overcame Satan by the Blood of the Lamb.
Once Satan gets to earth, 1,260 days after Christ returns to heaven, he immediately wages war against the Church. The first martyr, Stephen is killed. The Christians are all subject to massive persecution and martyrdom wherever the Gospel was spread. But in vs 14, the woman (the Church) is told to flee to Pella (the wilderness) just prior to the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. Here the Church is nourished for 3.5 years until the war is over. Satan, not being able to do further harm to the Church attacks the off-spring, the rejecting Jews inside Jerusalem and slaughters 1.1 million of them leaving only 98,000 left alive. These are taken to Rome where many more are put to death in the Colosseum.
The other woman, of Rev 17, was apostate Jerusalem (the Christ rejecting murdering Jews). They are the ones, "drunk with the blood of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus." This woman, arrayed in purple and scarlet (the colors of the garments worn by the Jewish priests) all decked out with gold and precious stones, killed their Messiah and many of His followers. The "beast" that carried this woman was Rome. Rome supported this filthy harlot, the Jewish customs and priestly leaders and even put their Messiah to death for this woman.
But in 70 AD, Rome turns on this filthy harlot Woman and absolutely slaughters her, burns down her vile temple, kills the remaining priests and desolates the city. "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.” - This is Jerusalem, the "holiest" city on the planet at that time. Everyone was in awe over Jerusalem in those days.
Jerusalem also sits on 7 hills. Look it up. The harlot of Rev 17 being Jerusalem is absolutely clear from Mat 23. The same symbolism John uses in Rev 17 is first found here, in Mat 23 (right before the Olivet), "fill up" as in "cup."
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. [SUP]32[/SUP]Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [SUP]34 [/SUP]Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, [SUP]35 [/SUP]that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! [SUP]38 [/SUP]See! Your house is left to you desolate; [SUP]39 [/SUP]for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
Can't you see that the Wrath of God was aimed at them??? God had it with them!!! Try really hard and look back on the entire history of the Jewish race from Abraham to the death of Christ and recognize who rejected Christ, scourged Him, killed Him and His disciples. This stiff necked nation had been disobedient more in 2,000 years then they were ever obedient. This is why the Church came about, the kingdom was given to another. All of this is why God destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. It's desolation foretold by Daniel and the other prophets was the conclusion of those wicked nightmare people. The significance of the destruction of Jerusalem cannot be overstated. It was the end. It was finished. God's wrath concluded.
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How does the story of the Harlot conclude in Rev 18?
The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”
Can't you see that this is the same as Mat 23?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”
If you were James, the Just, Jesus' earthly brother killed the day Rome surrounded the city, do you ask for justice? What about Paul and the torment he suffered from the Jews. Or Stephen, stoned to death by them, or James the Lesser, same thing? Or Simon the Zealot (Jude) also murdered in Jerusalem. What about all the OT prophets they killed?
Again, back to Mat 23:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
There's no 2,000 year gap found here. They were the ones God's wrath was against and for good reason. AHW, if someone murdered your son the way they killed Jesus, are you going to take it out on their descendants thousands of years later??? Not me, I'm going to track down whoever murdered my son and they will regret the day they were born when I catch up to them. This is why God put Jerusalem through the greatest tribulation He could devise before He slaughtered them and desolated them. 2,000 years of their disobedience was enough. He had given them chance after chance, warning after warning, prophet after prophet and still they wouldn't listen. He finally sent His Son and they murdered Him. How much more patience did they deserve??
The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”
Can't you see that this is the same as Mat 23?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”
If you were James, the Just, Jesus' earthly brother killed the day Rome surrounded the city, do you ask for justice? What about Paul and the torment he suffered from the Jews. Or Stephen, stoned to death by them, or James the Lesser, same thing? Or Simon the Zealot (Jude) also murdered in Jerusalem. What about all the OT prophets they killed?
Again, back to Mat 23:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
There's no 2,000 year gap found here. They were the ones God's wrath was against and for good reason. AHW, if someone murdered your son the way they killed Jesus, are you going to take it out on their descendants thousands of years later??? Not me, I'm going to track down whoever murdered my son and they will regret the day they were born when I catch up to them. This is why God put Jerusalem through the greatest tribulation He could devise before He slaughtered them and desolated them. 2,000 years of their disobedience was enough. He had given them chance after chance, warning after warning, prophet after prophet and still they wouldn't listen. He finally sent His Son and they murdered Him. How much more patience did they deserve??
This is a good point. but I am not sure if anyone denies that the destruction of Jerusalem was God's vengeance? If someone does deny it I would be very surprised.
If by war you are referring to the war between Michael and his angels against Satan and his angels, that war has not yet taken place, but will in the middle of the seven years. As proof of this, the war, which is the result of the sounding of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe, would have been preceded by trumpets 5 and 6. That said, we have no record of demonic beings being released from the Abyss to torment the inhabitants of the earth with stings like that of a scorpion.
The 6th trumpet would follow where those four angels would have been released at the great river Euphrates and they and their army of 200 million would have killed a third of the inhabitants of the earth and this certainly hasn't happened.
Gen.37:9-10 makes it very clear that the woman is representing the nation Israel. The woman never becomes the church. The woman of Revelation 12 is representing Israel. In the middle of the seven years Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. The woman/Israel flees out into the desert where she will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period.
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way[SUP]e[/SUP] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[SUP]f[/SUP] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[SUP]g[/SUP]
As far as the gospel is concerned, they (Israel) are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
God is not done with Israel. On the contrary, He has unfinished business with them, namely, that last seven years in fulfillment of the seventy sevens.
The woman of Rev.17 -18 is not Israel at all, but is that idolatrous city that sits on seven hills, that counterfeit church, Roman Catholicism.
Israel will say exactly this during the time that she is being cared for during that last 3 1/2 years.
During that last seven years not only is God going to fulfill the prophesies regarding Israel, but he is going to pour out his wrath upon the entire Christ rejecting world and that via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. You and those who believe as you do, have no understanding of the severity of God's coming wrath. You have watered it down and diluted it, reducing it to the destruction of the temple. Yet anyone who reads and understands the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, can easily see that the destruction of the temple pales greatly in comparison.
You people are going to unpleasantly surprised when you see the real wrath of God begin. Once the church has been gathered from the earth, the next event to take place will be the initiating of that seven year agreement, which will allow Israel to build her temple. When you see these things begin to take place, then you will know that we were telling you the truth about these things.
The scripture you provided above does not support your claim of Jerusalem/Israel being the woman of Rev.17-18. Reason being is that, during the last 3 1/2 years the woman who rides that beast, which is identified as that great city who rules over the kings of the earth, is destroyed at that time. So much so, that no one will ever inhabit her again, just as it is described in the scripture that you provided above. The problem is that, scripture makes clear that Jerusalem will be inhabited during the millennial period, as can be seen from the following scripture:
"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
So according to the scripture above, after Satan is released he deceives the nations figuratively called Gog and Magog and they surround the camp of God's people, the city he loves, which could only be referring to the city He's always loved, Jerusalem.
Therefore, if the woman, which is that city that sits on seven hills was Jerusalem as you say and that city is completely destroyed, then how could we see Gog and Magog surrounding Jerusalem at the end of the thousand years?
The answer is that Jerusalem is not the woman who rides the beast, not the woman who sits on seven hills and is not the woman referred to in Rev.17-18.
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Why is nobody seeing Revelation 12 as talking about 1st century? To me it is crystal clear just from reading the text that the woman is Mary and the son is Jesus. Revelation 12:5 is clear in my opinion.
The persecution is clearly by the evil king who was afraid of Jesus' birth.
The persecution is clearly by the evil king who was afraid of Jesus' birth.
[FONT="]24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron;
It seems that those who are faithful to the end and who 'overcome' are those qualified to rule with a rod of iron. [/FONT]
Hello Bogadile,
After reading the following you may change your mind about the woman representing Mary:
"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”
The scripture above identifies the same symbols used in Rev.12 and their meanings are revealed by Jacob:
Sun = Jacob
Moon = Wife/wives
Stars = The twelve sons of Israel
Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars is figurative representing the nation Israel.
It is unbelieving Israel during that time who will be pregnant and will give birth to a male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000 who come out of her (gives birth to). These will be the first fruits to God who come out of Israel who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah.
Furthermore, if you will compare the male child to Jesus, you will see that Jesus does not fit the criteria of the male child:
Jesus = crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended to heaven
Male child = Caught up to God and his throne.
Harpazo translated "caught up" is the same word used to describe the living church being changed and caught up to God's throne. The male child is caught up before the dragon can devour it, while in comparison, Jesus was crucified.
I thought the church gets raptured and not the unbelieving Israel? What happened to that time of Jacob's trouble? At first I thought dispensationalists have 3 comings of Christ, now it has risen to four?
The male being the 144 000 I got to look into it, but you are right the symbols do match the Old Testament descriptions so you could be right on it being Israel.
Also the first fruits from Israel came and went in the 1st century. Thousands of Jews were added to the church, it is clear. First fruits refers to the multitude of the Jews who accepted their Messiah, which included the Apostles. 2000 years later can hardly be called first fruits no?
Many, if not all, pre-tribbers deny it. They deny that the Great Tribulation happened in 70 AD and instead assign it to some future, global wrath against all unbelievers. You see if the GT was in 70 AD, it would destroy their future rapture theory whereby they don't have to face death because they plan to be air lifted off to heaven totally escaping the death of their physical bodies. The problem with this thinking is that it's been proven wrong for nearly 2,000 years now but each generation, I guess, thinks they will be the lucky ones.