The Rapture

[J7]

Wow! ...................

 

[KJV1611]

I wish to ask antoher question. I see many are waiting for the Abomination of Desolation that Our Lord Jesus Christ mentions in Matthew 24:15 however it is clear from the context that Jesus here is speaking to His disciples and that generation shall not pass.
Therefore if Jesus had in mind something that would only occur thousands of years later it would be very strange, how do you get around this fact? What makes the situation even more sticky is that the Temple was destroyed just like Jesus predicted so I am quite sure many of His disciples thought that what Jesus said came true instead of sitting down and saying "let us wait for a new temple to be built 2000 years later maybe that time it will be the abomination of desolation".

I do not understand why there needs to be a gap added to the final week? The gap is not mentioned anywhere in the Scriptures nor is there any reason to add any such gap, Daniel 9:27 looks fulfilled to me, how is it not fulfilled? Where do you come up with the gap?

I am aware of some prophecies having multiple fulfillments as someone has said. But by my count this would be the 3rd Abomination of Desolation, one is recorded in the book of Maccabees before Jesus was born and the other in 70 AD, so if they get the temple re-built it would be the 3rd.
Also look at history, they have tried to rebuild it many times and never have succeeded (Almost as if God doesn't want it):
(quote from wikipedia):

"the project of rebuilding the temple was aborted because each time the workers tried to build the temple using the existing substructure, they were burned by terrible flames coming from inside the earth and an earthquake negated what work was made:

Julian thought to rebuild at an extravagant expense the proud Temple once at Jerusalem, and committed this task to Alypius of Antioch. Alypius set vigorously to work, and was seconded by the governor of the province; when fearful balls of fire, breaking out near the foundations, continued their attacks, till the workmen, after repeated scorchings, could approach no more: and he gave up the attempt.[SUP][15]"[/SUP]

That's pretty interesting about the attempts to rebuild the temple.

 

[PlainWord]

I have never come across anyone so convinced Preterism is true.

I think you're in for a big surprise one of these days.

That's okay. I don't want to be part of the majority who thinks that the great tribulation is a future world-wide event complete with the antichrist and rapture. Some who have thought this sold everything and went to a mountain top and were sadly disappointed - and homeless. Others bought new tennis shoes, drank purple Kool-Aide and waited for a comet thinking the world was coming to an end.

When I die, I hope it will be at an old age in my bed with my wife at my side (she's a lot younger and healthier than me). When that happens, I will immediately be in heaven and receive my robe and whatever rewards I've earned. To you my view is crazy, but my view is the way it's been for 2,000 years. Your view happened in the first century, too bad you missed it.

 

[PlainWord]

Those veres in Isaiah are talking Israel... Israel IS Babylon and Sodom and Egypt.

Revelation 11:8 KJV
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

No, Israel was not attacked and destroyed by the Medes. The Medes freed them. However, in Revelation Israel is called Babylon because of their pagan worship and destruction to come.

 

[shrume]

Do you have an example of that [The "earth" often times refers to Israel.]

Absolutely. The prophets like to copy each other so let's look at the greatest prophet of all (after Jesus). He wasn't speaking to or about literally the heavens and earth. He was speaking instead to the entirety of his people.

Isa 1:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth!
For the Lord has spoken:
“I have nourished and brought up children,
And they have rebelled against Me;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]The ox knows its owner
And the donkey its master’s crib;
But Israel does not know,
My people do not consider.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Alas, sinful nation,
A people laden with iniquity,
A brood of evildoers

In my opinion, your argument is very weak. "give ear, O earth" is not referring specifically to Israel.

It's simply a broad declaration that when God speaks He wants everyone in heaven and earth to listen. He then goes on to talk ABOUT Israel, but "earth" in that verse, or the many other verses where that declaration is used, does not refer specifically to Israel.

 

[J7]

I wish to ask antoher question. I see many are waiting for the Abomination of Desolation that Our Lord Jesus Christ mentions in Matthew 24:15 however it is clear from the context that Jesus here is speaking to His disciples and that generation shall not pass.
Therefore if Jesus had in mind something that would only occur thousands of years later it would be very strange, how do you get around this fact? What makes the situation even more sticky is that the Temple was destroyed just like Jesus predicted so I am quite sure many of His disciples thought that what Jesus said came true instead of sitting down and saying "let us wait for a new temple to be built 2000 years later maybe that time it will be the abomination of desolation".

I do not understand why there needs to be a gap added to the final week? The gap is not mentioned anywhere in the Scriptures nor is there any reason to add any such gap, Daniel 9:27 looks fulfilled to me, how is it not fulfilled? Where do you come up with the gap?

When Jesus answers the disciples, he refers to 2 events. 1) The Destruction Of Jerusalem 2) His 2nd Coming

He also explains what precedes the destruction of Jerusalem, and what conditions on earth are like prior to his 2nd Coming.

Most of the information he gives is for the 1st Century Church. It is vital information.

The levels of persecution the 1st Century Church experienced were horrendous. It was vital for their morale, for their survival, for the survival and growth of the Church, and to fulfil prophecy. Daniel's prophecies are Jesus speaking. So Jesus knows his own prophecies! and makes sure they are fulfilled!!!

 

[KJV1611]

No, Israel was not attacked and destroyed by the Medes. The Medes freed them. However, in Revelation Israel is called Babylon because of their pagan worship and destruction to come.

Isaiah 13:20 KJV
It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Egypt is inhabited and people have dwelt there from generation to generation and the Arabian pitches his tent in Eqypt today.

 

[KJV1611]

In my opinion, your argument is very weak. "give ear, O earth" is not referring specifically to Israel.

It's simply a broad declaration that when God speaks He wants everyone in heaven and earth to listen. He then goes on to talk ABOUT Israel, but "earth" in that verse, or the many other verses where that declaration is used, does not refer specifically to Israel.

Amen, I agree!!

 

[PlainWord]

I wish to ask antoher question. I see many are waiting for the Abomination of Desolation that Our Lord Jesus Christ mentions in Matthew 24:15 however it is clear from the context that Jesus here is speaking to His disciples and that generation shall not pass.
Therefore if Jesus had in mind something that would only occur thousands of years later it would be very strange, how do you get around this fact? What makes the situation even more sticky is that the Temple was destroyed just like Jesus predicted so I am quite sure many of His disciples thought that what Jesus said came true instead of sitting down and saying "let us wait for a new temple to be built 2000 years later maybe that time it will be the abomination of desolation".

I do not understand why there needs to be a gap added to the final week? The gap is not mentioned anywhere in the Scriptures nor is there any reason to add any such gap, Daniel 9:27 looks fulfilled to me, how is it not fulfilled? Where do you come up with the gap?

I am aware of some prophecies having multiple fulfillments as someone has said. But by my count this would be the 3rd Abomination of Desolation, one is recorded in the book of Maccabees before Jesus was born and the other in 70 AD, so if they get the temple re-built it would be the 3rd.
Also look at history, they have tried to rebuild it many times and never have succeeded (Almost as if God doesn't want it):
(quote from wikipedia):

"the project of rebuilding the temple was aborted because each time the workers tried to build the temple using the existing substructure, they were burned by terrible flames coming from inside the earth and an earthquake negated what work was made:

Julian thought to rebuild at an extravagant expense the proud Temple once at Jerusalem, and committed this task to Alypius of Antioch. Alypius set vigorously to work, and was seconded by the governor of the province; when fearful balls of fire, breaking out near the foundations, continued their attacks, till the workmen, after repeated scorchings, could approach no more: and he gave up the attempt.[SUP][15]"[/SUP]

Exactly!!!

How cool is that? I never heard of this but it has long been my belief that God allowed the Muslims to build their mosque there 1,400 years ago to prevent Israel from ever rebuilding that temple. One of the sadist sights I've ever seen is watching the orthodox Jews praying at what they think is a remaining part of the second temple. They want to continue under the Law using blood of animals for redemption having missed their Messiah.

First, they aren't even praying at part of the old temple retaining wall. The entire temple was destroyed and every last stone was removed as Jesus declared and as confirmed by Josephus. Instead, they are praying at part of the old fortress wall of Fort Antonia, from which the Romans launched their final assault. Who dares tell them?

We have many Christians (including many who write on these pages) who think a new temple needs to be built so that the antichrist can rule from there. Some actually want this to happen. They expect to be raptured just before this happens. Then I guess they think that temple will be destroyed and a new one made for Christ to reign from. They ignore the prince who came and destroyed the sanctuary and city in 70 AD skipping right over that thinking this HUGE event had no meaning and jump ahead 2,000 years. They are as blind as the Jews worshiping at the Roman wall. I guess none of our futurist friends have read Acts 7.

[SUP]48 [/SUP]“However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, (and neither does His Son) as the prophet says:

[SUP]49 [/SUP]‘Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
Or what is the place of My rest? [SUP]50 [/SUP]Has My hand not made all these things?’

News flash futurists, Jesus doesn't dwell in man-made temples. Jesus reigns in heaven OVER the earth.

 

[PlainWord]

Isaiah 13:20 KJV
It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Egypt is inhabited and people have dwelt there from generation to generation and the Arabian pitches his tent in Eqypt today.

Again, Isa 13 dealt with Babylon, not Egypt and not Israel. The ancient city of Babylon in Iraq was found and it is a huge archeological site. Do you see any Arab tents in these pictures?

 

[KJV1611]

Again, Isa 13 dealt with Babylon, not Egypt and not Israel. The ancient city of Babylon in Iraq was found and it is a huge archeological site. Do you see any Arab tents in these pictures?

Yes you're right Babyon, not Egypt... but spiritual Babylon is Israel. Isaiah 13 is the same story as Joel.

Isaiah 13:10 KJV
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

 

[PlainWord]

In my opinion, your argument is very weak. "give ear, O earth" is not referring specifically to Israel.

It's simply a broad declaration that when God speaks He wants everyone in heaven and earth to listen. He then goes on to talk ABOUT Israel, but "earth" in that verse, or the many other verses where that declaration is used, does not refer specifically to Israel.

LOL. Whose prophet was Isaiah? Was he a prophet to the whole planet? I bet the pygmies in New Guinea never heard of him. Okay, not convinced. Let's try this:

I just quoted Acts 7:

[SUP]48 [/SUP]“However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:

[SUP]49 [/SUP]‘Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool.

Which prophet said this? David was first but so did Isaiah in Chapter 66:

Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool.

Here Isaiah is talking about Israel of the first century.

This "earth as a footstool" concept appears many times.

1 Chr 28: Then King David rose to his feet and said, “Hear me, my brethren and my people: I had it in my heart to build a house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made preparations to build it.

Lam 2: How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He cast down from heaven to the earth The beauty of Israel, And did not remember His footstool In the day of His anger.

Am I the only one who sees a connection between Israel and footstool? How about here?

Mat 22: For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’

Who were the Lord's enemies? How about the Jews who killed Him? Once Jerusalem was seized by Titus, and the wicked people inside starved to death and were killed by the sword (from both the tyrants and the Romans), then Christ's enemies became His footstool. Thus Luke 19 was fulfilled:

[SUP]41 [/SUP]Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, [SUP]42 [/SUP]saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. [SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

and Mat 26 where Jesus was talking to His enemies:

[SUP]63 [/SUP]But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”[SUP] 64 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

and Mat 16:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. [SUP]28 [/SUP]“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

and of course Mat 24:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

That's right, the parousia (Presence) of Christ returned in 70 AD fulfilling all of these "wrath" prophesies and ending the Law and ushering in the "Church age."

 

[PlainWord]

FYI. The "Tribes of the Earth" are the "Tribes of Israel." The word, "tribe(s)" appears 309 times in the NKJV. Only once is tribes referring to another nation (Tribes of Egypt). So, it's a pretty safe bet (308/309 odds) that the "Tribes of the Earth" who mourn were of Israel. After all, they missed their Messiah the first time. But they did not miss Him the second time as He lit up the night sky with His Presence (parousia) wrath return.

Equally compelling is that Titus surrounded Jerusalem suddenly on Passover. What happens for Passover? Every Jew from all over the "world" returns to Jerusalem to celebrate.

“First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them.

And this is exactly what happened. God saw to it that all rotten eggs were placed in one basket to burn in 70 AD.

 

[PlainWord]

Last thing then I have to go. Look at the original text of verse 3. They asked when His presence (parousia) would return, not when He would literally return in person.



Now look at what "Parousia" means!! I didn't write this.



This is why I'm a partial preterist.

 

[PlainWord]

Yes you're right Babyon, not Egypt... but spiritual Babylon is Israel. Isaiah 13 is the same story as Joel.

Isaiah 13:10 KJV
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Buddy, you are so close, but not quite. Yes, you are correct that spiritual Babylon was Israel. I agree that Isa 13 and Joel share the same "sun and moon darkness" symbolism which represents divine judgment. But I differ from you on who is being punished where. The sun and moon darkening, sky rolling up like a scroll and other "cosmic disturbances" symbolism for divine punishment is found in several places.

Isa 13, the punishment was against Babylon
Isa 34, the punishment was against Edom
Eze 32, the punishment was against Egypt
Mat 24, the punishment was against Israel

Now Joel covers 3 attacks and punishments upon Israel. The sun and moon symbolism for divine punishment occurs in three places in Joel. Joel begins with the invasion of Babylon against Israel.

Joel 1:6 "teeth of a lion" nation is Babylon which agrees with Dan 7 description of the lion beast.

Joel 2 starts with the invasion of Antiochus. In Joel 2:12 the call for repentance is answered by the Maccabees. The Lord answers their repentance and drives the Greeks out in 2:20 and restores the Land through 2:27. Then in 2:28-29 we come to Pentecost. This is the passage Peter quotes in Acts 2. This is how we know that they were in the "last days" (their last days as a nation).

Then in Joel 2:30-31 we come to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The remnant are rescued in verse 32.

 

[shrume]

Am I the only one who sees a connection between Israel and footstool? How about here?

I'll bet you're the only one (along with possibly other Preterists) who sees "earth" as referring to Israel.

That's right, the parousia (Presence) of Christ returned in 70 AD fulfilling all of these "wrath" prophesies and ending the Law and ushering in the "Church age."

I disagree. The parousia, meaning the second coming, of Jesus Christ did not happen in 70 AD. It still has not happened.

...but believe as you will. It has been my experience on bible discussion forums that VERY few people ever change their mind about anything.

 

[shrume]

FYI. The "Tribes of the Earth" are the "Tribes of Israel."

FWIW, I disagree with that too.

Matt 24:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Gentiles will make it alive through the upcoming trib.

 

[Denadii]

And if I hear another word about a future world-wide 7 year great tribulation and pre-trib rapture I'm gonna start one for you to make you happy...

70AD Josephus......Now...Can I watch?

 

[PlainWord]

I'll bet you're the only one (along with possibly other Preterists) who sees "earth" as referring to Israel.


I disagree. The parousia, meaning the second coming, of Jesus Christ did not happen in 70 AD. It still has not happened.

...but believe as you will. It has been my experience on bible discussion forums that VERY few people ever change their mind about anything.

True, including you. Go ahead and keep waiting for events which were fulfilled 2,000 years ago. That is certainly your prerogative.

 

[shrume]

True, including you.

While I'm sure you see it that way, I hope that if I can be shown that I am wrong from the scriptures, I will have the humility to change what I believe.

Go ahead and keep waiting for events which were fulfilled 2,000 years ago. That is certainly your prerogative.

Time will tell, PlainWord. And just maybe not much more time.

We'll see.