The Rapture

[notuptome]

This has already happened hasn't it? The spirit of grace was poured out when Christ came and they looked upon him whom they pierced. John says "they shall look on him whom they pierced" was fulfulled at the cross.

John 19:36-37 KJV
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Well they who is Israel certainly pierced Him but they have yet to look upon Him. They denied Him but when He returns in power and glory then they will see Him as Messiah and weep.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KJV1611]

Amen to that! I haven't been on here for long but I can guarantee I have never heard of any of this in churches across the globe. I have never met anyone in real life who has believed this strange hogwash some of these guys come up with. This to me is definately a sign of the times, strange doctrines are becoming more popular. What happened to the good ole arguments about women speaking in church or being pastors and the way to baptize etc. and whether its required for salvation.

Now we got these new strange doctrines of people saying Jesus already returned AND WE MISSED IT, its amazing I cannot believe someone actually believes this. Jesus SPECIFICALLY said EVERY EYE shall see Him, that its NOT going to be invisible. You don't need to know anything about the bible to become a preterist, when people point out a passage to you just parrot "fulfilled in 70A.D. read Josephus". Well ain't that something. So the bible is being interpreted through the lens of some historian who wasnt even SAVED? Good stuff.

Sorry guys, i'll stick to my good ole: Independent, temperamental, fundamental, right-wing, radical, redblooded, redneck, chicken eating premillennial -ways.

What is your belief on Daniel 9:27?

 

[KJV1611]

Well they who is Israel certainly pierced Him but they have yet to look upon Him. They denied Him but when He returns in power and glory then they will see Him as Messiah and weep.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The way I read it, John said those things WERE DONE so the scripture would be fulfilled.. Am I reading it wrong? Doesn't John say "they shall look on him whom they pierced" was fulfilled while Jesus was on the cross?

John 19:36-37 KJV
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

 

[notuptome]

The way I read it, John said those things WERE DONE so the scripture would be fulfilled.. Am I reading it wrong? Doesn't John say "they shall look on him whom they pierced" was fulfilled while Jesus was on the cross?

John 19:36-37 KJV
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

John is citing Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

Still to be fulfilled.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KJV1611]

The way I read it, John said those things WERE DONE so the scripture would be fulfilled.. Am I reading it wrong? Doesn't John say "they shall look on him whom they pierced" was fulfilled while Jesus was on the cross?

John 19:36-37 KJV
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

What is the groups take on this verse, is John saying this was fulfilled at the cross or no?

 

[KJV1611]

John is citing Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

Still to be fulfilled.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What does John mean by "these things were done"?

John 19:36-37 KJV
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced

 

[notuptome]

What does John mean by "these things were done"?

John 19:36-37 KJV
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced

It means the obvious. The Jews pierced Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KJV1611]

It means the obvious. The Jews pierced Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Almost... it means Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at the cross, this not something future.

 

[notuptome]

Almost... it means Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at the cross, this not something future.

Not even close.

Israel did not weep when they crucified Christ. They called for His blood and preferred Barabbas to Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Enow]

This has already happened hasn't it? The spirit of grace was poured out when Christ came and they looked upon him whom they pierced. John says "they shall look on him whom they pierced" was fulfulled at the cross.

John 19:36-37 KJV
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Did the Lord destroy all nations that came against Jerusalem when He had died on the cross? No. This is a future event where the Israelites will realized that they had crucified their Saviour n the cross and mourn for Him for what they had done.

 

[Denadii]

Has anybody read the entire chapter of Zech 12? If not it might be wise to do so. That chapter does not talk about the rapture at all....It appears to be talking about how they will fight over Jerusalem in the Today

 

[KJV1611]

Not even close.

Israel did not weep when they crucified Christ. They called for His blood and preferred Barabbas to Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I'm not giving you my opinion lol, I'm telling you what John said - those things were done to fulfill "They shall look on him who they pierced.

John 19:36-37 KJV
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

 

[VCO]

Almost... it means Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at the cross, this not something future.

My understanding is that is a reference to the Day when the majority of Jews are saved, most likely because of the SUCCESSFUL witnessing by the TWO WITNESSES in Revelation, AND what they see happen to them. IN JERUSALEM is where the TWO WITNESSES finish their Testifying about Jesus being the Messiah, and then the Antichrist kills them, Thus, that is also when the Majority of Jews will Recognize JESUS as the Messiah, whom their Ancestors crucified, ESPECIALLY AFTER THEY SEE THE RESURRECTION OF THOSE TWO WITNESSES and HEAR GOD's COMMAND TO THEM:


Revelation 11:7-13 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. [NOT POSSIBLE BEFORE SATELLITE TV.]
[SUP]10 [/SUP] The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. [THAT IS THE MOMENT IN TIME THAT I BELIEVE Zech. 12:10 IS TALKING ABOUT.]

The mourning of the nation Israel​

12:10

​

12:10b. Thus Israelites will receive divine enablement to look on Me, the One they have pierced. The Lord refers to the nation's action of piercing Him, a term usually indicating "piercing to death." The piercing evidently refers to the rejection of Christ (as God Incarnate) and crucifying Him, though the word does not specifically refer to the Crucifixion. The "looking" could be either physical vision (sight) or spiritual vision (faith). Probably it refers here to both, for this will occur at the Second Advent of Christ when Israel will recognize her Messiah and turn to Him. The change to the third person (mourn for Him, rather than "mourn for Me") is common in prophetic literature. The mourning for sin that is prompted by the outpoured Spirit is illustrated by a private act of mourning (v. 10) and a public act of mourning (v. 11). The loss of an only child or of a firstborn son was aggravated by the felt curse associated with childlessness and the lack of an heir to continue the family name and property.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

Israel's Deliverance (12:10-14)

There is coming against Jerusalem in that day the enemy from the outside. Why is God going to protect them, and why is God going to deliver them? The reason is given here in verse 10 --
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn [Zech. 12:10].

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications."

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

12:10 I will pour.

God, in His own perfect time and by His own power, will sovereignly act to save Israel. This was prophesied by other prophets (cf. Ezek. 39:29; Joel 2:28-32), and by the apostle Paul (cf. Rom. 11:25-27). Spirit of grace and supplication. The Holy Spirit is so identified because He brings saving grace and because that grace produces sorrow which will result in repentant prayer to God for forgiveness (cf. Matt. 5:4; Heb. 10:29). look on Me whom they pierced. Israel’s repentance will come because they look to Jesus, the One whom they rejected and crucified (cf. Isa. 53:5; John 19:37), in faith at the Second Advent (Rom. 11:25-27). When God says they pierced “Me,” He is certainly affirming the incarnation of deity—Jesus was God. See note on John 10:30.

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

 

[notuptome]

I'm not giving you my opinion lol, I'm telling you what John said - those things were done to fulfill "They shall look on him who they pierced.

John 19:36-37 KJV
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

You are reading into the scripture not out of the scripture.

Preterism is such an ugly thing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Has anybody read the entire chapter of Zech 12? If not it might be wise to do so. That chapter does not talk about the rapture at all....It appears to be talking about how they will fight over Jerusalem in the Today

It speaks of the return of Christ as conquering King to save Israel from utter destruction at the end of the tribulation. It is when the millennial reign begins.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KJV1611]

Did the Lord destroy all nations that came against Jerusalem when He had died on the cross? No. This is a future event where the Israelites will realized that they had crucified their Saviour n the cross and mourn for Him for what they had done.

Zechariah 12:9-10 KJV
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I would have to disagree, because IN THAT DAY, the day when grace was given to Israel (the cross) and at the time when they looked upon him whom they pierced (the cross), in that same day, God destroyed all the nations that came against Jerusalem, nations doesn't always mean countries... Abraham was the father of many nations, not countries.

 

[KJV1611]

You are reading into the scripture not out of the scripture.

Preterism is such an ugly thing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What did I read in?

 

[Denadii]

It speaks of the return of Christ as conquering King to save Israel from utter destruction at the end of the tribulation. It is when the millennial reign begins.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Good so far. Keep going. There is more to it.

 

[KJV1611]

My understanding is that is a reference to the Day when the majority of Jews are saved, most likely because of the SUCCESSFUL witnessing by the TWO WITNESSES in Revelation, AND what they see happen to them. IN JERUSALEM is where the TWO WITNESSES finish their Testifying about Jesus being the Messiah, and then the Antichrist kills them, Thus, that is also when the Majority of Jews will Recognize JESUS as the Messiah, whom their Ancestors crucified, ESPECIALLY AFTER THEY SEE THE RESURRECTION OF THOSE TWO WITNESSES and HEAR GOD's COMMAND TO THEM:


Revelation 11:7-13 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. [NOT POSSIBLE BEFORE SATELLITE TV.]
[SUP]10 [/SUP] The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. [THAT IS THE MOMENT IN TIME THAT I BELIEVE Zech. 12:10 IS TALKING ABOUT.]

The only problem with that view is that John tellls us that "they will look him whom they pierced" was fulfilled on the cross.

 

[Denadii]

Zechariah 12:9-10 KJV
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I would have to disagree, because IN THAT DAY, the day when grace was given to Israel (the cross) and at the time when they looked upon him whom they pierced (the cross), in that same day, God destroyed all the nations that came against Jerusalem, nations doesn't always mean countries... Abraham was the father of many nations, not countries.

KJV1611 In the days of the tribulation period, The Jews, as a people, will repent of their rejection of Jesus. The sacking of Jerusalem was not the event spoken of here. That has yet to happen.